Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Zimko**

Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.

What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.

I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).

RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Zimko wrote:
Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.

What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.

I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).

RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.

Three Shadowswords? Uh... who the hell actually plays that and how do they feel having no friends?

**Zimko**

It's competitive around here

. No hard feelings.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Zimko wrote:
It's competitive around here . No hard feelings.

It is competitive here too, but I still don't think folks would do that. That being said, beat him on mission. You got troops, he doesn't.

**SHUPPET**

Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote: You think the Exocrine is not so important?

Not so much unimportant as much as it seemed like the least disruptive thing to drop as far as threat saturation goes. A single Exocrine is a bit of a fire magnet, especially without any other 12+ wound monsters around to attract heavy firepower.

Yeah, I look at the list and I can tell it's the obvious target too. Hmmm I'll think about where to go from there.

Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.

One of mine did that as well. Just give it a brief dunk in hot water and the bulk of it will snap back into its original shape by itself or with a little prodding. Repeat as necessary.

How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?

**DaBraken**

Zimko wrote:
Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.

What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.

I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).

RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.

GSC supreme detachment with 3x magus can do quite well if you manage to control one with Mind Control. Mass Hypnosis is you friends for charges. And The Horror is not bad either... combined with -1 to hit from Malanthrope, Venomthropes or Carnfiexes you can do quite well. Situational though, but valid way to go.

**Zimko**

I was thinking of taking 2x magus and 3x neophyte hybrid squads with mortars for a battalion. +5 CP and a few extra ob sec units seems decent, especially since they don't give up reaper points if they have mortar teams (9 models instead of 10... silly ITC secondary)

**DaBraken**

Zimko wrote:
I was thinking of taking 2x magus and 3x neophyte hybrid squads with mortars for a battalion. +5 CP and a few extra ob sec units seems decent, especially since they don't give up reaper points if they have mortar teams (9 models instead of 10... silly ITC secondary)

For 341 points this is quite cheap, considering what you get. And you can still fit in a 3rd magus if needed.

**Bossanovee**

Few lists from tourneys that I would like to share

https://diceshot.com/category/tyranids/

**Badablack**

Anecdotal, but I played against a 3 Shadowsword list once using Jormungandr with 3 squads of deepstriking zoanthropes with neurothrope support, swarms of genestealers, and a bunch of Hive Guard out of LOS and it just ruined him. Was never able to pull off the zoanthrope mortal wound stratagem but they were carving half a tank a round, hive Guard finished it up, and all those volcano cannons and lascannons were useless on the zoanthropes. The heavy bolters did shred my genestealers but the rest was enough to kill him. This was pre smite/deepstrike nerf though, so who knows what works now.

**SHUPPET**

Badablack wrote:
Anecdotal, but I played against a 3 Shadowsword list once using Jormungandr with 3 squads of deepstriking zoanthropes with neurothrope support, swarms of genestealers, and a bunch of Hive Guard out of LOS and it just ruined him. Was never able to pull off the zoanthrope mortal wound stratagem but they were carving half a tank a round, hive Guard finished it up, and all those volcano cannons and lascannons were useless on the zoanthropes. The heavy bolters did shred my genestealers but the rest was enough to kill him. This was pre smite/deepstrike nerf though, so who knows what works now.

that's really interesting. I've been interested in the zoanthropes and how they perform. Sounds like a cool list. What was it entirely?

**Badablack**

I think it was:

2 Neurothropes
1 Broodlord
3x3 Zoanthropes
6 Hive Guard
4x12 Genestealers
2x3 Rippers
2x3 Raveners
Mucolid Spore
3x1 Biovores

So plenty of CP with a Brigade (half which got spent deepstriking everything), all the important stuff deepstriking, no giant monsters to blow away with lascannons, and artillery dug in the back. Genestealers had the 4+ carapaces since they were all deepstriking and needed to weather a million shots if they failed their charges. 1 Neurothrope with the zoanthropes, the other hanging out with the artillery to give synapse and feel no pains to the Hive Guard if necessary.

Zoanthropes are pretty great. It’s 9 3++ wounds that don’t care about morale, can’t be locked in combat or prevented from doing damage, and don’t care about saves. Their only weakness is Death Hex and the marine equivalent, which will rarely be a problem since they’re casting on 9 to even get it off. Even with the Smite nerfs, if they’re in range of a Neurothrope (which should be always) they’re rerolling 1’s which is the source of most failed tests anyway.

**Zimko**

That's way too many units in reserves. Even before the FAQ you could only put 9 units of the 18 required units for a brigade into reserves. Now you also have to worry about power level.

**Badablack**

Zimko wrote:
That's way too many units in reserves. Even before the FAQ you could only put 9 units of the 18 required units for a brigade into reserves. Now you also have to worry about power level.

Oh it’s definitely not nearly as good anymore, this was all pre-nerf. I probably had more mucolids to keep the ratio even and deny deepstrikers in my own zone. Turn 2 deepstrikes now mean I’d be eating a ton of fire while everything twiddles its thumbs in reserves, if I redid the list it would be double battallions instead with either Kraken for faster movement or Leviathan for the 6+++. Probably Leviathan just to make the Zoanthropes even more obnoxious to kill.

**lindsay40k**

SHUPPET wrote:

Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.

One of mine did that as well. Just give it a brief dunk in hot water and the bulk of it will snap back into its original shape by itself or with a little prodding. Repeat as necessary.

How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?

I've used this technique to repose Finecast or Forgeworld figures. (Resin is much easier than plastic for this, as it slowly becomes more supple in with boiling heat, rather than suddenly melts or collapses in burning heat; ignore these people who talk about cigarette lighters and Carnifex tails (seriously, what the heck?).)

I get the following together:

- a jug of icy water
- a boiling kettle
- a funnel with a thin spout that I can safely handle whilst pouring in scalding hot water
- a means of safely holding a model whilst giving it a scalding hot shower

In a sink or over a large bowl, I use the funnel to apply hot water to the area that needs to be repositioned. Once it'll freely bend, get it into shape (a rod of blu tack can help hold it in position if you only have two hands), and spot apply cold water to fix it.

It's not as permanent a solution as cut and pin, but it gets things done. You'll probably get paint chipping around the bend and a base might need reflocking, but nowhere near as much trouble as if you'd just dunked the whole thing.

**Strat_N8**

Zimko wrote:

I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).

RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.

That Shadowsword list is the sort of thing that makes GSC rub their claws together with glee. Mind Control one of them to hopefully destroy one of their squadron mates, then Mass Hypnosis and charge with Acolytes/Aberrants to smash another to a pulp. Demolition Charges, Rock Saws, and Rock Drills all love seeing big fat Lords of War to tear up and GSC can easily get strength modifiers to allow Acolytes to wound on 5's with their Rending Claws and 3's for their heavy weapons.

SHUPPET wrote:
How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?

I heated the water until it had steam coiling from the surface but not quite at a boil. The paint was more or less unaffected, but I didn't keep it submerged very long (held it by the base) so there wasn't much time for any of the paint to dissolve.

SHUPPET wrote:
that's really interesting. I've been interested in the zoanthropes and how they perform.

Before, it was more efficient to spam Neurothropes since you could get 2 for around the cost of Zoanthrope brood of 4 (minimum needed to unlock their bonus), but with the new matched play rules the Zoanthrope brood is more efficient at dealing mortal wounds since each cast of Smite has the effect of two casts for only +1 to casting difficulty instead of +2.

I mostly run Zoanthropes with Hydra lists. They don't like high rate of fire guns and can shrug off low rate of fire anti-tank shots fairly well, so they fit in nicely with Hydra's infantry skew for saturation purposes while their preference for larger units plays into Hydra's adaptation as well.

**killerpenguin**

I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.

**SHUPPET**

killerpenguin wrote:
I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.

We have a new dex coming?

**Mellon**

SHUPPET wrote:
killerpenguin wrote:
I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.

We have a new dex coming?

GSC has a new codex coming. Not officially announced yet, but will likely be during june/july.

**ChargerIIC**

SHUPPET wrote:
killerpenguin wrote:
I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.

We have a new dex coming?

Genestealer Cult codex is purportedly out sometime this year

**Dynas**

SHUPPET wrote:
Zimko wrote:They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.

Dynas wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
So what you're saying is that it's army dependant, and doesn't work that well at covering mcs? Cause I feel like that's what I just said. *glances upwards* Yup, that's definitely what I just said.

You can run carnifexs with -1 to hit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:
They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.

This

Lol.

Cool, so what you guys are saying is that the Malanthrope won't be able to shroud 6+ mcs, and that it's effectiveness in covering your models is army dependant? Cause I feel like I've already said that twice now *glances upwards* I'm getting some serious DejaVu here.

I mean yeah, you could put a malanthrope in the middle of 6 dakkafex if they are base to base. Just move around a blob of fexes at Malanthrope/Misanthrop speed.[Its an evolved form] It's doable.

**Badablack**

Misanthropes are known to travel slowly, due to all that built up hate.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Badablack wrote:
Misanthropes are known to travel slowly, due to all that built up hate.

Beat me to it.

Also, Misenthrope sounds like it should be a 'Nid.

**Wilson**

I'm sure the other players wont mind me posting these, seeing as they are shared on the London GT page. Here are all the Nid lists entered for the LGT 2018. ( 440 players!)

These lists are compliant with the new BETA rules and the latest FAQ. only restriction is no duplicate detachments.

Spoiler:

**Dynas**

That a lot of kraken. I think you forgot the 2nd detachment of the third list (the kronos detachment. Interesting to see the last 2 with the swarm lord.

**Zimko**

Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.

**SHUPPET**

Dynas wrote:
I mean yeah, you could put a malanthrope in the middle of 6 dakkafex if they are base to base. Just move around a blob of fexes at Malanthrope/Misanthrop speed.[Its an evolved form] It's doable.

On planet bowling ball, and you hit no terrain speedbumps, then maybe. But then you still have to slow down a unit designed to get in range as close as possible, by the lowest move+charge roll among 7 different units. Which will likely by the Malanthrope itself thanks to it moving significantly slower than the Fexes. So it fails in every way. And then the question of would you even pay 140 points to shave off around 1/6 hits against a 600 point unit? That doesn't add up even if it didn't have ridiculous requirements to make it work.

Anyway, that wasn't even what I said.

SHUPPET wrote:

Teach me how to fit 6 Carnifexes, 20 Warriors and an Exocrine within 3" of a Malanthrope and then keep them there all the way up the board.

The quote you just answered is after you responded to leave the Carnifexes out. When I respond "okay so the Carnifexes don't fit with the rest of the army like I said", a response telling me to jam 6 Carnifexes up around a Malanthrope is... not very productive.

I'm sorry, but when you have a ground MC heavy army mixed with infantry, taking a Malanthrope just isn't gonna work out to cover them all.

**Fragile**

You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.

1/6 hits from normal weapons are not so important. 1/6 of lascannons are different story.

**SHUPPET**

Fragile wrote:
You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.

"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(

For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this. Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.

1/6 hits from normal weapons are not so important. 1/6 of lascannons are different story.

It doesn't matter if it's 1/6 hits from boltguns or lascannons, the the point is that it's saving you as many hits from both as just taking forcing them to target down another Carnifex, which costs even less points and doesn't have the ridiculous movement restrictions given to 600 points of another unit built around rushing forward as fast as possible, and gives you more dakka. Paying 140 pts just to protect ~1/6th of that many points of Dakka is a bad choice.

**lindsay40k**

Point of order - Malanthrope do not prevent ‘1/6 hits’. 6+++ stuff like Changeling does something similar (1/6 of Wounds), but -1 to be hit prevents:

25% of BS3+ hits
33% of BS4+ hits (that makes it a lot harder for Tau to get full Marker Light bonuses)
50% of BS5+ hits
100% of BS6+ hits (play against Orks and cast The Horror and this becomes extremely relevant - potentially, you can switch off a Stompa’s guns)

This is assuming no re-rolls, but still, a very tasty result - which also makes supercharged Plasma extremely unattrative, which is very nice indeed.