Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Scallywag wrote:
In my opinion it is Death Company > Vanguard Veterans > Sanguinary Guard > Assault Squad.

I would choose Vanguard Veterans over Sanguinary Guard almost every time. Sanguinary Guard aren't bad, but their 2 wounds aren't that useful against a lot of weapons and you don't want to pay at least 35 points for each model in the unit. Death Company and Vanguard Veterans are much more flexible and durable (per point).

SG have an amazing Banner + rerolls with Warlord though.
I think you drop in the bomb with a Jump/Termie Librarian (Warlord) with Unleash Rage + SoS, SG Ancient (Relic) , and unit of SG, burn the 3D6 charge strat and go to town.

I don’t have experience with them but I would think SG would run well in a heavily mechanized list where there’s too many targets for lascannons for the SG to be the obvious priority, and infantry small arms fire is mostly wasted. On the flip side, DC and VV are nice in infantry heavy lists that had hardly any armour so anti tank is wasted on 1w models. So far this edition I’m finding if I bring a list with a notable amount of both armour and infantry the opponent has an easier time because every weapon in their balanced list has an easier time finding its optimal target.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Scallywag wrote:
In my opinion it is Death Company > Vanguard Veterans > Sanguinary Guard > Assault Squad.

I would choose Vanguard Veterans over Sanguinary Guard almost every time. Sanguinary Guard aren't bad, but their 2 wounds aren't that useful against a lot of weapons and you don't want to pay at least 35 points for each model in the unit. Death Company and Vanguard Veterans are much more flexible and durable (per point).

SG have an amazing Banner + rerolls with Warlord though.
I think you drop in the bomb with a Jump/Termie Librarian (Warlord) with Unleash Rage + SoS, SG Ancient (Relic) , and unit of SG, burn the 3D6 charge strat and go to town.

Vanguard Veterans also profit from the banner and Death Company are just so much better overall.

I think sg are actually the best overall because of the 2+ armor. I don't understand the fascination with dc.

Martel732 wrote:
I think sg are actually the best overall because of the 2+ armor. I don't understand the fascination with dc.

It's because there better in almost all circumstances

+1 FNP is usually better than +1 armour save due to mortal wounds and it can't be ap'ed away not that you encounter much ap-5 but both reduce casualties by 1/6.

However SG +1W is nice but that high ap weaponry tends to also be multidamage meaning that often the DC extra model makes them similar in tankiness

Then theres cost 5 powersword+ bolter jump death company is 120pts so are a little cheaper

Skimp on the death masks and it's 140 for only 4 sanguinery guard

So what about damage well death company get an extra attack on the charge and one more model so are better at killing 1W models in cc

While at short range it's pretty much a tie 10 shots at 12" for dc vs 8 shots AP-1 for SG DC get 5 at 24" though and sg get nothing at 24" so DC are better at shooting

So what about multi Wound models Well yes SG do D3 damage but never fear 5 DC with thunder hammers and jump packs comes in at 180 pts. Sure they have -to hit but with 3 rather than D3 damage an extra model and an extra attack on the charge they do far more damage

So what does SG have going for it marginal tankiness for significant cost and reduced damage output.

The big feather they have is the standard of sacrifice which doesant effect DC. But if what you want is tankiness why not spend 10pts and go terminator for the INV.

Martel732 wrote:
I think sg are actually the best overall because of the 2+ armor. I don't understand the fascination with dc.

Forlorn Fury and the fact that dropping in they can have 30 S4 Bolter shots followed by 60 S4 Chainsword attacks that wound on a 5+ minimum, put a few Power Swords/Axes in there and you're doing a lot of damage.

Sanguinary Guard are also limited to truly being effective when around your Warlord. Death Company don't really have that problem (support does help though).

So yeah I think I decided on my DC loadout. 15 Bolters, 10 Chain Swords, 5 Power Swords. 320pts.

Martel732 wrote:
I think sg are actually the best overall because of the 2+ armor. I don't understand the fascination with dc.

Yeah 2+ armor save is still important for bolter type shots which is still a lot of the fire you face.

As for DC, they look cool and the lore is awesome! I mean in terms of rules, I think they and VV are really close in capability and power level. I don't think you can go wrong with either. The main differences for me are the VV are able to toss a couple SS in the squad to soak high AP fire, and the DC have the built in FnP, and the synergy with Lemartes/astorath.

I thineed for me the problem with SG is that they don't haveven a clear purpose PS DC or TH DC are optimised for killing inFintry or vehicles SG is in the middle

Yeah, and Sanguinary Guard are just insanely expensive. A pretty lightly equipped squad of Vanguard Vets with a Lightning Claw, and 3 Plasma Pistols is only 209 points with Jump Packs.

They are excellent at shredding infantry, which is more of what my army needs. I have enough heavy weapons and Plasma to tackle a lot of the harder targets, I just don't have a large volume of attacks to remove screens.

Mehpiston can also take on a lot of the bigger targets, so a 400 point Squad of Sanguinary Guard is generally unnecessary when the SG really want character support as well driving up the points costs and reducing the body count of my army even more.

Martel732 wrote:
I think sg are actually the best overall because of the 2+ armor. I don't understand the fascination with dc.

It's largely an issue of many of the early list theorizers not seeing the whole picture, or not being familiar with the competitive side of the game. Also apparently some misinformation seeing as how someone just said that a squad was 400.

You want to run them both as max squads to get the most out of your stratagems and take up less deep strike spots. SG have less of a morale issue when doing so. They both cost roughly the same at max after giving the DC just a touch of weaponry.
But SG can get rerolls to all hits, even shots with their AP-1 guns, reroll 1's to wound, +1 ld, a warlord fearless aura if desired, and 5+ fnp all from a single 99 point character. Ludicrous synergy there. And the fnp makes it pretty likely that each guard can suck a 2 damage hit and live, making the enemy burn another entire 2 damage wound to remove a model, not to mention that starting at 2+ armor makes them effectively have a reasonable 4 or 5+ "invuln" against most heavy weapons out in the open.

DC want Lemmy, who is more expensive, and he still doesn't solve their morale issue given that they have a bigger squad without astorath or a warlord with the fearless aura tagging along. They actually can't benefit from the banner at all despite it being better than their fnp. They lack wound rerolls without bringing along yet another character. Ask an iron hands player how helpful 6+ fnp is on a 1 wound model. I mean, they're still good, and with the way strats work in match play, I fully expect to see both units in bigger lists, but in a direct comparison, the SG are noticeably better in most situations.

People need to accept that Astorath goes with DC, not Lemartes. If I'm running a 15 man DC squad, I'm taking Astorath everytime. Lemartes does very little in practice, imo. The 3+ armor really sucks vs snipers, too. And I don't need to reroll charges if I'm not deepstriking them. Which I'm not, because forlorn fury.

Martel732 wrote:
People need to accept that Astorath goes with DC, not Lemartes. If I'm running a 15 man DC squad, I'm taking Astorath everytime. Lemartes does very little in practice, imo. The 3+ armor really sucks vs snipers, too.

Maybe if your running 15 man DC squad but I'm not running 15 model squads, i'm running 2 10 man squads with lemartes, so Morale is much less concerning, because I can use Lemartes LD plus they have ATSKNF. That also gives me 3 units right there that can attempt a charge, and re-roll that charge. With Astorath, you'll have to use the decent of angels strategem to get your DC charge off, and at that point your probably just praying to get anything else in. I am going to be using that strategem for another unit so I can make sure to get even more units into CC when I need them to get into CC.

Martel732 wrote:
People need to accept that Astorath goes with DC, not Lemartes. If I'm running a 15 man DC squad, I'm taking Astorath everytime. Lemartes does very little in practice, imo. The 3+ armor really sucks vs snipers, too. And I don't need to reroll charges if I'm not deepstriking them. Which I'm not, because forlorn fury.

Well I agree with you personally, although Lemmy causes a shocking amount of damage when he hits the lines, and gives himself the reroll charge also. Asto is a little more expensive and trades some offense for some defense. But I think there's an argument for him in both multiple DC units and with the fact that they probably want to shoot the character down in their counterattack turn, which means they can't wait for morale to remove a few DC for them; They have to do it themselves or let the hyper-offensive Lemartes jump into their backfield.

Is there a case for Assault Marines with Jump packs vs Bikes for a 3 Melta-gun delivery system? Are either worth taking?

How do Hellblasters fare?

Whats our good anti tank options?The Stormraven seems way to expensive now despite packing a lot of needed heavy firepower and the need for transport capacity is not needed anymore IMO

Assault Marines are bad, and so are melta guns.

Hellblasters are great, though I'm not sure if I'd take them with Blood Angels since they don't synergize as well as they do with more typical marine armies.

I like lascannon devastators, personally; they fill space in your deployment zone and since you want to run a lot of infantry anyway using lasdevs means all of the opponents' antitank goes to waste.

I still don't know how to deal with screening units. I'm playin astra today and he'll bubble wrap everything as usual. Sunday i'll be playin against another gun line for sure.
What is the best thing to do? Sacrifice 1 unit of DC and a jump pack librarian turn 1 to make a path for my sanguinary guard to bring the pain on turn 2?
Additionally, how to I protect my backline?

Spado wrote:
I still don't know how to deal with screening units. I'm playin astra today and he'll bubble wrap everything as usual. Sunday i'll be playin against another gun line for sure.
Whta ther best thing to do? Sacrifice 1 unit of DC turn 1 to make a path for your sanguinary guard to bring the pain on turn 2?
Additionally, how to I protect my backline?

Yes this is the exact thing keeping us from actually being competitive. What you describe is probably the best thing you can do. Hope you can thin out the screen enough in one turn that you can actually engage valuable targets on t2. In this case I wouldn't worry about your backfield. Just try to get every bolter, knife, and sharp rock thrown at them, because if it takes til t3 to engage their non-chaff units, you lost.

Lascannon the critical units like basilisks. Always bring some lascannons.

Spado wrote:
I still don't know how to deal with screening units. I'm playin astra today and he'll bubble wrap everything as usual. Sunday i'll be playin against another gun line for sure.
What is the best thing to do? Sacrifice 1 unit of DC and a jump pack librarian turn 1 to make a path for my sanguinary guard to bring the pain on turn 2?
Additionally, how to I protect my backline?

AM is very strong these days.
I'd shoot the bubble in first turn and then let the deep strikers appear in round two.
Could work only if you go first. Otherwise, you have to face to rounds of shooting before the DC arrives.

Well competitively you use the non ba portion of your army

On a side note your have a back line in pure BA?

Guardsmen will have to go up to 5ppm eventually i think.

I was thinking maybe a brigade is the way to go. Sacrificing bodies in the SG and DC and cut my HQ's down, and trading Lemartes for three attack bikes. I'd be able to be pretty liberal with my CPs. One alternative may be to trade the tacticals in this list for scouts, and use those points to buy three more DC. I have these models though.

Brigade
HQ
Libby Dread 170
Sanguinor 170
Captain (w/ jump pack TH) 114
Troops
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 tactical (x1 plasma gun) 78
x5 tactical (x1 plasma gun) 78
x5 tactical (x1 plasma gun) 78
Elites
Sanguinary ancient (Warlord) 99
x8 Sanguinory guard(swords, bolters) 280
x12 DC (jump packs) 240
Fast Attack
Attack bike, (Heavy bolter) 45
Attack bike, (Heavy bolter) 45
Attack bike, (Heavy bolter) 45
Heavy Support
x6 Dev squad (x 2 lascannon) 131
x6 Dev squad (x 2 lascannon) 131
x6 Dev squad( x 2 lascannon) 131

If my points are right this should be 2000 on the dot

U02dah4 wrote:
Well competitively you use the non ba portion of your army

On a side note your have a back line in pure BA?

I use pure BA my friend

Is there a limit to the amount of Company Veteran (I think that's what they're called) squads one can run? The elite choice that can have special weapons and "Look Out, Sir" for characters...

I'd probably only run one or two squads, but they do seem like one of our best overall options.

I'm also on team Sanguinary Guard. I have a large squad of Death Company in my list, but if I had to remove 10 SG or 15 DC, the latter are coming out first...

 Voidwraith wrote:
Is there a limit to the amount of Company Veteran (I think that's what they're called) squads one can run? The elite choice that can have special weapons and "Look Out, Sir" for characters...

I'd probably only run one or two squads, but they do seem like one of our best overall options.

I'm also on team Sanguinary Guard. I have a large squad of Death Company in my list, but if I had to remove 10 SG or 15 DC, the latter are coming out first...

No other than force org slot, you can go nuts with your vets. And yeah the SG big picture wise are better, but as the game gets bigger, having both becomes a pretty obvious choice.

Bit o' advice to BA players making early charges and wiping a screen unit. Remember that you have the option, if an important enemy shooty unit or two is within less than 10", to consolidate towards them, burn honor the chapter, and pile in/consolidate 6" more, engaging them. It's expensive cp wise, but if they have a highly threatening unit like hellblasters, especially in a smaller game, this tactic can completely wreck their battle plan. Always be on the lookout for this chance.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Bit o' advice to BA players making early charges and wiping a screen unit. Remember that you have the option, if an important enemy shooty unit or two is within less than 10", to consolidate towards them, burn honor the chapter, and pile in/consolidate 6" more, engaging them. It's expensive cp wise, but if they have a highly threatening unit like hellblasters, especially in a smaller game, this tactic can completely wreck their battle plan. Always be on the lookout for this chance.

If you wipe out a screen unit and consolidate towards the other unit which is 9" away, you are 6" away. You use honor the chapter to fight again, you pile in 3", and you are 3" away. You cant fight, because you are not within 1". It only works if you are within 7" of the other unit.

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:

How do Hellblasters fare?

Hellblasters are great. Run them with a cheap captain, sanguinary novitiate and Standard of Sacrifice and they are harder to shift than curry stains on a white shirt! (And they burn hotter too ).

So are DC the go to unit for clearing blobs/screens as first wavers? Seems like dropping in 15 with bolter and chainsword is 30 boltgun attacks and 60 melee attacks, not bad for 300 points. Throw in Dante for fearless and reroll all hits, point and click...

p5freak wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Bit o' advice to BA players making early charges and wiping a screen unit. Remember that you have the option, if an important enemy shooty unit or two is within less than 10", to consolidate towards them, burn honor the chapter, and pile in/consolidate 6" more, engaging them. It's expensive cp wise, but if they have a highly threatening unit like hellblasters, especially in a smaller game, this tactic can completely wreck their battle plan. Always be on the lookout for this chance.

If you wipe out a screen unit and consolidate towards the other unit which is 9" away, you are 6" away. You use honor the chapter to fight again, you pile in 3", and you are 3" away. You cant fight, because you are not within 1". It only works if you are within 7" of the other unit.

Almost correct. You get to pile in 3, (not) fight, and then consolidate 3 for every activation, which means you can indeed cross 6" of ground per activation, in addition to the 3 inches off the last half of the activation where you killed the original unit.

Again keep in mind I'm not talking about landing attacks on them. I'm talking about engaging them so that they must either fall back or stay in melee with you and not shoot on their turn. Odds are they were outside 12" of your original pre-charge position anyway, which means you couldn't declare them a target, and thus can't attack them anyway, regardless of how fast you got there or how many activations you have. (Such as using multiple honor the chapters in a non-matched-play game.)

This maybe a dumb question, but are Company Veterans able to take Jump Packs?