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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Because a DC with a hammer is, in many cases, 4 times less durable than SG. I get to swing the sword a lot more times over the course of the game.

Also, if I'm sending in one hammer unit with descent of angels, I want it to be as tough as possible so it can press the attack.
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




Sanguinary guard body is so underpriced it's ridiculous. You are paying 23 points for a flying primaris with a 2+. With rerolls integrated. Luckily their weapons options don't allow them to get a cheap loadout.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Martel732 wrote:
Because a DC with a hammer is, in many cases, 4 times less durable than SG. I get to swing the sword a lot more times over the course of the game.

Also, if I'm sending in one hammer unit with descent of angels, I want it to be as tough as possible so it can press the attack.


“In many cases” means solely against bolter and other small arms fire, yes? Shooting them with bolters is as stupid as shooting terminators with bolters. My issue with them comes from the line of thought that they have fewer and lower quality attacks, meaning they need to survive to another turn just to accomplish what they were meant to do in the turn they arrived. DC have weight of attacks, and 3 damage rather than D3. Not only that, but they are easily enough points that they are a prime target for plasma and other high powered weaponry, which are extremely common. I realize you’re speaking from experience and I’m speaking from a hypothetical position but I’m trying to justify spending the cash on two boxes before being disappointed afterwards lol. I’m already unconvinced that the box of VV I have are worth bulking upt next to the 3 boxes of DC waiting to be built.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The bigger guns are engaging preds and redemptors in my list. There is a lot of ap 0 in the game. There just is.

Vanguards with storm shields have a great niche, imo
Cheap, mobile storm shields. They are how we engage dark reapers and the like.

Plasma is a problem for sg which is why i send the vv after plasma and the sg after not plasma.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 21:22:47


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Martel732 wrote:
Because a DC with a hammer is, in many cases, 4 times less durable than SG. I get to swing the sword a lot more times over the course of the game.

Also, if I'm sending in one hammer unit with descent of angels, I want it to be as tough as possible so it can press the attack.


4 times? What a rediculous claim.

Under optimal circumstances AP0 1D fire a 4 man SG has 8W 2+ vs 5 man DC 3+ 6+FNP

DC 37.5% less durable not 75%

Conversely vs D2 DC are 20% more durable

DC become 16% more durable again vs AP5 but this.is to rare to make much of a difference

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 22:40:07


 
   
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The banner does help out SG's survivability, where as it doesn't affect DC.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

U02dah4 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because a DC with a hammer is, in many cases, 4 times less durable than SG. I get to swing the sword a lot more times over the course of the game.

4 times? What a rediculous claim.

No Martel is quite correct. It takes almost 4 times as much small-arms fire to kill an SG than a DC (it would be exactly 4 times apart from the DC's 6+++).

DC fail saves on a 1 or a 2 whereas SG only fail on a 1 so DC takes wounds from AP0 D1 weapons at twice the rate as SG. Couple the fact that SG have 2 wounds apiece and it does almost 4 times the amount of shooting to bring them down.

Of course if your opponent is firing his basic weapons at SG and not overcharged plasma, you are probably going to win anyway.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
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The key with SG is not give them that choice. People will often double tap another target rather than fire singles at SG as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 23:08:05


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




They’ll double tap another target rather than fire singles at the SG, while they’ll happily pour small arms fire into SG? I can assure you I see enough plasma that they don’t have to choose and they’d rather pour singles into the 35 point SG than double tap 13 point tac marines or 18 point intercessors, etc.

“There is a lot of ap 0 in the game. There just is.” Yes, there is, but basically every other target in a Blood Angels list is a better place for it to be pointed rather than armour and heavy infantry. If you’re dumping copious amounts of small arms firepower into SG then you’re either new to the game, a moron, or you’ve already lost.

Your point about storm shields for engaging dark reapers is well taken, and I can appreciate, but arguing the way for SG to survive is to play them smart and not give the opponent an option...yikes. The people I play against have as much grey matter floating in their skulls as I do, and their MO also involves not giving me options.

To this point I’m still unconvinced that I’d be better served by an SG unit that can beta strike 3 turns later after taking 2 turns to destroy their original target rather than a DC unit that can beta strike to a lesser extent one turn later because their initial target was obliterated the turn they dropped.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

For Sanguinary Guard, is there a reason I am missing that I should take an Encarmine Axe over a Power Fist? I know the -1 to hit sucks, but with Rerolls of all to-hits, it has to be pretty decent. Nevermind the fact that the Power Fist from that kit is one of the coolest looking Power Fist bits in existence.

Any reason to give them any special pistols? Seems like the Angelus Boltgun is pretty great on its own.

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Made in us
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Bremon wrote:
They’ll double tap another target rather than fire singles at the SG, while they’ll happily pour small arms fire into SG? I can assure you I see enough plasma that they don’t have to choose and they’d rather pour singles into the 35 point SG than double tap 13 point tac marines or 18 point intercessors, etc.

“There is a lot of ap 0 in the game. There just is.” Yes, there is, but basically every other target in a Blood Angels list is a better place for it to be pointed rather than armour and heavy infantry. If you’re dumping copious amounts of small arms firepower into SG then you’re either new to the game, a moron, or you’ve already lost.

Your point about storm shields for engaging dark reapers is well taken, and I can appreciate, but arguing the way for SG to survive is to play them smart and not give the opponent an option...yikes. The people I play against have as much grey matter floating in their skulls as I do, and their MO also involves not giving me options.

To this point I’m still unconvinced that I’d be better served by an SG unit that can beta strike 3 turns later after taking 2 turns to destroy their original target rather than a DC unit that can beta strike to a lesser extent one turn later because their initial target was obliterated the turn they dropped.


The way I view it comes to this: SG are as tough as TDA Marines. Even against overcharged plasma they get a 5+. So unless you fight AP-4 or greater, no real difference on durability.

DC are power armor. That 6+ FNP ain't doing much.

So drop the BA lenses and just ask: for what I want this unit to do in this list, do I want MEQ or TEQ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 05:06:55


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




That’s a good point. They’re basically flying vanilla termies that lose the invul. I’m not sure if that makes me like them more or less. It’s a shame they couldn’t take the storm shields away from the vanguard vets lol.
   
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Germany

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Sanguinary Guard, is there a reason I am missing that I should take an Encarmine Axe over a Power Fist? I know the -1 to hit sucks, but with Rerolls of all to-hits, it has to be pretty decent. Nevermind the fact that the Power Fist from that kit is one of the coolest looking Power Fist bits in existence.


Where do you get reroll of all to hits for sang guard ? You need dante for that. The sang guard ancient can only reroll failed hit rolls for himself if he is within 6" of a BA warlord.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Any reason to give them any special pistols? Seems like the Angelus Boltgun is pretty great on its own.


Inferno pistols are great against high toughness targets. There is no CC weapon that can match it.
   
Made in us
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Sioux Falls, SD

p5freak wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Sanguinary Guard, is there a reason I am missing that I should take an Encarmine Axe over a Power Fist? I know the -1 to hit sucks, but with Rerolls of all to-hits, it has to be pretty decent. Nevermind the fact that the Power Fist from that kit is one of the coolest looking Power Fist bits in existence.


Where do you get reroll of all to hits for sang guard ? You need dante for that. The sang guard ancient can only reroll failed hit rolls for himself if he is within 6" of a BA warlord.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Any reason to give them any special pistols? Seems like the Angelus Boltgun is pretty great on its own.


Inferno pistols are great against high toughness targets. There is no CC weapon that can match it.
Heirs of Azkaellon works whenever they within 6" of the BA Warlord. So if they are near the Warlord, Sanguinary Guard go nuts. They don't need Dante for that.


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Little Rock, Arkansas

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Sanguinary Guard, is there a reason I am missing that I should take an Encarmine Axe over a Power Fist? I know the -1 to hit sucks, but with Rerolls of all to-hits, it has to be pretty decent. Nevermind the fact that the Power Fist from that kit is one of the coolest looking Power Fist bits in existence.

Any reason to give them any special pistols? Seems like the Angelus Boltgun is pretty great on its own.


No, the axes are a situational swap that are only better than the swords against enemies that are both t4-5 and have 5+ or worse armor. So like...orks...daemons...genestealers...the dark eldar freak units? It would be an alright swap option except that it costs extra. If you're worried about higher T go for fists and wound everything ever on 2's thanks to thirst, and the swords handle everything else. I think they made a mistake on the blade encarmine costs and maybe forgot to lower them to force weapon costs, and even then I still wouldn't pay extra for the axe. I'd still just jump straight to the fist.

Although it is kind of exciting to think that the post-codex FAQ might see even better SG costs if they decide to lower those.

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Germany

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Heirs of Azkaellon works whenever they within 6" of the BA Warlord. So if they are near the Warlord, Sanguinary Guard go nuts. They don't need Dante for that.


You're right, i read it wrong.
   
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

What's better... scouts or SG in melee? Just curious how the cost breaks down?

Assuming the scouts take chainswords for that lovely +1A?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I've also got a lot of shooting in my list. The stuff that is really good vs SG is gonna get shot. At least, that's the plan.
   
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Razerous wrote:
What's better... scouts or SG in melee? Just curious how the cost breaks down?

Assuming the scouts take chainswords for that lovely +1A?

Well, I'd take DC in all circumstances. Normally, I rune two units of 10 DC accompanied by Lemartes or Astorath.
Scouts and SG are not a must-have in a BA list.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
Razerous wrote:
What's better... scouts or SG in melee? Just curious how the cost breaks down?

Assuming the scouts take chainswords for that lovely +1A?

Well, I'd take DC in all circumstances. Normally, I rune two units of 10 DC accompanied by Lemartes or Astorath.
Scouts and SG are not a must-have in a BA list.
I think you're missing my point.

Having a unit like DC or SG to murder things is good.

But you're going to field 0, 1 or 3+ squads of scouts in either case. So I'm curious how effective they are per-point. May be worthwhile the leverage the fairly awesome faction trait of +1 to wound on a charge.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
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Definitely the best troop other than intercessors as obj camper.
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Interesting. I haven't made a list with DC in it yet. Too many other interesting options.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Interesting. I haven't made a list with DC in it yet. Too many other interesting options.


How ? It's like either DC or SG.
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Vanguards. There's a lot of reasons to use vanguards over DC. Dark reapers, for starters.
   
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Dakka Veteran




What are some other reasons?
   
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Anything you want to drop close to that got nasty AP on their weapons. Half the Eldar army if you think about it. IG plasma guns. 3++ on a mobile unit is really nice in my experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:55:16


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




That makes a lot of sense to me. I’ll likelt magnetize my VV but I will definitely try to use a handful of shields in the squad to soak overwatch enabling the squad to harass heavy weapons teams and tanks that have been left the slightest bit exposed.
   
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I actually like 5 of 8 with shields and the two without have lightning claws or is the sarge with a hammer.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

I run a Company Veterans (with Jump Packs) squad rocking Storm Shields in my list and they are going to eventually be 5x models strong with 4x Storm Shields, 2 with Chain Swords, 1 with Power Axe, and 1 with Power Fist along side their chain swords. The sergeant is armed with a Thunder Hammer and an Inferno Pistol.

Keep them near something that allows for a re-roll or hit them with Unleash Rage for added fun. I like them as much as Vanguard Veterans as they have the same stat line, and the added ability to help intercept a wound for a nearby character.

I actually go against the grain here and field a Sanguinary Novitiate with this squad with a jump pack (index entry) and keep it close to the squad. I can use the intercept wound ability on a nearby Character and attempt to bring that slain model back on the following turn ideally. Doesn't always work, obviously, but it has kept that squad more of a combat threat for longer in the vast majority of games. Bringing back an extra ablative wound is always a good thing.

I may consider bringing a Vanguard Veteran Squad, and a small Assault squad with Plasma Guns as a flanker/harasser along with a pair of plasma pistols on the Sergeant.
I'm also strongly considering running an Inceptor squad with Plasma Exterminators as well for dealing with screens (average 12 hits on 6 D3 rolls) and they can drop far enough back to provide some added fire support to a priority target or obliterate screens with decent effectiveness.

Lots of fun ideas bouncing around. We'll see which ones work well in actual practice.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 22:04:07


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I dont' like the company vets as they'll likely be illegal in 9th.
   
 
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