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effective
adjective
1.successful in producing a desired or intended result.

Assuming beating your opponent is the desired aim of a tactics thread

Then to be effective you must maximise your odds of winning.

The good thing is in this edition there is no mono faction requirement (except imperium) so if it is more effective to be mono then be mono if it is more effective to pinch the best bits of several factions its about what BA do better than others and as stated by many BA fights well but is CP expensive and shoots poorly

I like how you conveniently left out portions of the definition. Let me rehash that for some clarity off of dictionary.com:

"adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result:"

You left out the "adequate" portion because it was counterintuitive to your own argument. BA are adequate. They do produce the desired result. You will win games with BA. Under your same logic, Astra Militarum aren't effective because they don't win every game. Therein lies your misinterpretation of the word. You can have armies that are more or less effective. Being effective means you simply won't lose every game, and with BA you won't. Sure you can min max everything. Under that idea, the game becomes extremely dull to most people because 90% of the units in the game are "ineffective" just because they aren't the maximum efficiency. If you want to play a min max game where all you take are the detachments and units that are the absolute most efficient, then you can. But don't sit here and tell other people that things aren't good solely on the fact that they aren't the absolute most efficient. Again, under that idea, practically anything but Magnus, Mortarion, and Astra Militarum are ineffective. Those are dominating the scenes pretty handily.

I didn't go to that site I just typed into google and copied the result

As to your definition it changes nothing the adequate result in a tactics thread is maximised probability of winning


As to
"don't sit here and tell other people that things aren't good solely on the fact that they aren't the absolute most efficient."

Surely not being efficient is the definition of not good in the context.

Umm... actually there are a lot of good units that are not the MOST efficient. Are you saying practically every SM army without Bobby G is ineffective? They are less efficient therefore in your eyes they are not good. I haven't seen a single SM army hit the top tables without good ole Bobby. I guess he's a requirement for you?

Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

Hoodwink wrote:
Umm... actually there are a lot of good units that are not the MOST efficient. Are you saying practically every SM army without Bobby G is ineffective? They are less efficient therefore in your eyes they are not good. I haven't seen a single SM army hit the top tables without good ole Bobby. I guess he's a requirement for you?

Some things are clearly better than others Salamanders are better at shooting than BA absolutely.

Some things are debateable and bobby G is very good in certain builds but other SM builds built to there advantages can also be very good and there is clear room for debate but most certainly require a different build to win. If they can be shown to better at there roll or work within a soup better than bobby G then great.

Essentially there isn't one single way to win but there are certainly things that are objectively worse than others.

As someone who reads this thread and who likes a bit of soup once in a while (Sisters, Imperial Guard) and who is toying around with adding some Red Marine(TM) chunks to my occasional bowl, I find the "use some unit other than BA" arguments pretty pointless.

This thread is useful for discussing and understanding the potential BA elements. People who care about AM shooting for example (and I do), can probably get better info about it in the AM threads.

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

Do preach it, Brother Bremon.

Well said, and exalted.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

You just have to scheme around having crappy screens. But ba shoot and punch very well.

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

Exactly. I don't play soup armies either. I play Blood Angels and Crimson Fists. Separately. And for different reasons.

I am looking at my BA army to add some long range shooting.

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.

p5freak wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.

Absolutely

So you understand that there's an area between "maximising the effectiveness" and "ineffective"?

In that area is "effective".

That's what we're saying.

Yes Maximiseing the effectiveness is what you want

Comparatively Ineffective is BA at shooting

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes Maximiseing the effectiveness is what you want

Two things;

1. You're assuming this is what I want. You assumed earlier that effective means "beating your opponent". Maybe effective means capable of performing a role, capable of competing a game of 40k?
2. Maybe I do want to "maximise effectiveness".... within a Blood Angels army. Seeing as this is a Blood Angels tactics thread, not (as has pointed out many times) an Imperial Soup tactics thread.

Comparatively Ineffective is BA at shooting

This is kinda meaningless ,and if I think I understand what you're trying to say, untrue.

Comparatively less effective is, I think, what you mean here. Although comparative to what?

Is a Landraider "ineffective" as a transport because a Stormraven can carry more, faster?


My point is that just because something is not "optimal", it does not become ineffective.

How amazing are scouts (approx 5-6 squads) with combat blades and a power sword on the Sgt.

To me they seem pretty damned amazing. Am I wrong?

p5freak wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.

Yes. I realize that. That’s why I said “without deviating from that red power armour”. I’d like to maximize the effectiveness of what I can achieve with this single book. I don’t care to haul 4 codex books to a friends house. I understand I could win more games with soup. I don’t care. I’m looking to get the most out of BA only, to maximize what is possible with BA only. Maybe that only gets me to a 70/100 score on a hypothetical powergaming test. I realize that’s less than what could be an 85+ with soup, but it’s still more than the 55-60 it might be without input from people in this thread. We aren’t all trying to win GTs; just give our friends a closer game. I’m looking to win more 4+ turn games, I’m not looking to table people turn 1 or 2. Not many people have fun in those games. I can only imagine what a treat it must be to play against some true soup connoisseurs cherrypicking all the “best” units from half the armies in the game (ie, Imperium). I’m sure it turns xenos players without those options green with envy wishing they had 200+ units to choose from.

As for AM CP shenanigans; AM are borderline broken. I’m happy for all the guys with 15 year old models that are currently kicking butt, but to chase the meta and dump piles of money and time into assembling and painting minis I don’t care for would be moronic. The brief amount of time I do make for 40k is to paint and game with miniatures I actually like, which is why I’m looking to “maximize the effectiveness of my vampire marines in red power armour”.

Razerous wrote:
How amazing are scouts (approx 5-6 squads) with combat blades and a power sword on the Sgt.

To me they seem pretty damned amazing. Am I wrong?

What is so damned amazing about them ?

If you skew towards shooting around 50-60%, BA are not that CP hungry. 2 CP for a dagger to the heart at some point. Killshot is cheap. Flakk missile is cheap. Hellfire is cheap. Auras don't cost CP, and foot captains are great sheriffs. "Get off my lawn!"

Also, reivers do their thing with zero CP expenditure. There are a lot more options than CHARGE IN THE DC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:

Razerous wrote:
How amazing are scouts (approx 5-6 squads) with combat blades and a power sword on the Sgt.

To me they seem pretty damned amazing. Am I wrong?

What is so damned amazing about them ?

They're cheap, hit hard, and allow for DS counter shenanigans. In fact, they hard counter all the charging DC stuff on here everyone is talking about.

p5freak wrote:

Razerous wrote:
How amazing are scouts (approx 5-6 squads) with combat blades and a power sword on the Sgt.

To me they seem pretty damned amazing. Am I wrong?

What is so damned amazing about them ?

I swear by mine. Will likely pick up a few more in the future, along with a Land Speeder Storm for transport.

They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.

I have one 5 man squad of them with just combat blades and pistols and they put in very good work. I do recommend trying them out as a nice troops option. People underestimate them, and it's always hilarious when they do.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.

Doesnt convince me. With cloaks they are 14 pts., thats 1 more than a regular space marine. That marine also rocks a 2+ sv in cover against AP0, but 3+ without cover. Your scout is 4+ with cloaks without cover.

p5freak wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.

Doesnt convince me. With cloaks they are 14 pts., thats 1 more than a regular space marine. That marine also rocks a 2+ sv in cover against AP0, but 3+ without cover. Your scout is 4+ with cloaks without cover.

You're determined to be antagonistic, I see.

Cloaks are an option. You know. Something you can choose to use if you want to. I don't usually run them on my Scouts in an effort to keep them cheaper, but it is an option if I've got the spare points at the end of the list building process.

Without cloaks, they're 11 points a piece. 55 points for 5 models with marine stats save for their save.

You throw blades and pistols on them, and they're throwing out 11 attacks. That's pretty decent for 55 points. If they die before they can do anything, well, they're 55 points. Woo.

I run all three troops options in my list, as I like variety. Scouts, tactical marines in a transport, and Intercessors as well. They all have a role, and they all do their job admirably most games. You don't like scouts, then don't freakin' run 'em. I don't care one way or the other. You've obviously made up your mind, and I'm not going to waste my time further trying to change it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

My thoughts are that you need 6 troops choices anyway (in most cases) to unlock decent amounts of CP.

One of the best ways to field that (in the BA dex) is with scouts, I feel. They hit hard, the combination of deep-strike 9", charging with combat blades to 10-11 attacks per squad, hitting and wounding on 3's (or 4's vs. most big things) for 55-60pts is great. Area denial is also great too.

Previously I thought they were good with bolters as a ranged threat but that red thirst seems very effective, considering you're gonna field 6 squads of something (and that something can turn 1 threaten a charge).

However.. how cheap is a good/cheap CP battery in the form of AM/IG. Hmm (yes I do have IG from time immoral) .. hmmm

Bremon wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.

This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.

You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.

Yes. I realize that. That’s why I said “without deviating from that red power armour”. I’d like to maximize the effectiveness of what I can achieve with this single book. I don’t care to haul 4 codex books to a friends house. I understand I could win more games with soup. I don’t care. I’m looking to get the most out of BA only, to maximize what is possible with BA only. Maybe that only gets me to a 70/100 score on a hypothetical powergaming test. I realize that’s less than what could be an 85+ with soup, but it’s still more than the 55-60 it might be without input from people in this thread. We aren’t all trying to win GTs; just give our friends a closer game. I’m looking to win more 4+ turn games, I’m not looking to table people turn 1 or 2. Not many people have fun in those games. I can only imagine what a treat it must be to play against some true soup connoisseurs cherrypicking all the “best” units from half the armies in the game (ie, Imperium). I’m sure it turns xenos players without those options green with envy wishing they had 200+ units to choose from.

As for AM CP shenanigans; AM are borderline broken. I’m happy for all the guys with 15 year old models that are currently kicking butt, but to chase the meta and dump piles of money and time into assembling and painting minis I don’t care for would be moronic. The brief amount of time I do make for 40k is to paint and game with miniatures I actually like, which is why I’m looking to “maximize the effectiveness of my vampire marines in red power armour”.

Perhaps if you built effectively you wouldn't find AM borderline broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:
My thoughts are that you need 6 troops choices anyway (in most cases) to unlock decent amounts of CP.

One of the best ways to field that (in the BA dex) is with scouts, I feel. They hit hard, the combination of deep-strike 9", charging with combat blades to 10-11 attacks per squad, hitting and wounding on 3's (or 4's vs. most big things) for 55-60pts is great. Area denial is also great too.

Previously I thought they were good with bolters as a ranged threat but that red thirst seems very effective, considering you're gonna field 6 squads of something (and that something can turn 1 threaten a charge).

However.. how cheap is a good/cheap CP battery in the form of AM/IG. Hmm (yes I do have IG from time immoral) .. hmmm

It depends 3 scout squads make an effective screen but you shouldnt really have anything to screen if your pure BA and they are certainly not bad but six seems excessive especially if your only taking them for CP and assumedly your also taking 3 bad FA choices to fill out that brigade.

The sensible choice would of course be to take AM for the CP

But if not 6 tacs with a lasgun and the FNP relic make for some passable AV and survivable objective holders as alternative.

I see we now have the 'get gud' argument being thrown around now.

Thanks for raising the bar there U02dah4.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

U02dah4, I am predominantly lurking in this thread rather than posting, but I am finding your posts very confrontational, and they are spoiling my enjoyment of the thread. I would very much appreciate it if you could use the term "competitive" instead of "efffective" as it seems more appropriate to your intent.

As an example of what at least some others mean, my intent when I play w40k at my local club is to have an enjoyable evening with a friend in which we play out a fun battle which is settled in turn 4 or 5. Part of what makes it fun is having themed armies. I therefore use Badab era Lamenters and do not use Primaris, and they are clearly less competitive than they could be. They are very effective for having fun. I want to use them effectively within that set of criteria, even if they aren't 100% optimal, and that is why I read this thread.

U02dah4 wrote:
effective
adjective
1.successful in producing a desired or intended result.

Assuming beating your opponent is the desired aim of a tactics thread

Then to be effective you must maximise your odds of winning.


I defined how I use effective - how is that not analogous to competative

Also how is the word effective being used to mean actually effective hostile?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I see we now have the 'get gud' argument being thrown around now.

Thanks for raising the bar there U02dah4.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I didn't say get good I said build effectively

AM are harder to build a bad list and can run mono effectively they are however quite manageable by a mediocre list. If your lists are really struggling that much that you consider AM bordeline broken then maybe its about looking at how you list build its not about you being good or bad from your answers its about you placeing artificial restrictions on your list building that dont exist in 8th

The 6 troops is for two Battalions not a single Brigade, as the extra 3x elite, fast attack and heavy support are far too much points wise.

4 HQ's (you're likely to make good use of four, our HQ's are bad-ass) and 6 troops.

Use scouts as screens, sure.

Or use them aggressively, MSU style. I'll test it out and report back, perhaps folk need some good old anecdotal evidence.

I’ve used mostly bolter scouts; I’ve tried sniper scouts and wasn’t impressed. CC scouts may be an option in the future.

I take a pretty even split of our troop choices, leaning towards intercessors. I love the durability. That they take more effort to kill makes them more useful to me than the added flexibility special/heavy weapons add to tac squads (though I still like Tac marines as much as anyone does lol).

Sniper scouts don’t seem to kill any characters for me, so I’d be tempted to try stalker intercessors in cover instead. Sitting on an objective they would be more difficult to shift, though lack the psychological effect sniper scouts can sometimes have on opponents.

Razerous wrote:
The 6 troops is for two Battalions not a single Brigade, as the extra 3x elite, fast attack and heavy support are far too much points wise.

4 HQ's (you're likely to make good use of four, our HQ's are bad-ass) and 6 troops.

Use scouts as screens, sure.

Or use them aggressively, MSU style. I'll test it out and report back, perhaps folk need some good old anecdotal evidence.

Ahh I assumed brigade because I would struggle CP wise with less than 12 for BA. Even in 2 battalions though I still think in purist BA you dont really have much worth screening because BA strength is in its Elites and HQs which all deepstrike or have mobility bonuses so your troops are really to sit back on objectives and Tacs will be better in that role.

While ideally you would Vanguard or supreme command BA and use something cheaper as a battery so you had more points for the strong BA units.