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Putting together some Blood Angels jump pack infantry tooled for close combat. I'm starting with a small group to use with other armies, but it may end up forming the core of a full fledged army one day. You know how it goes. My question to the thread:

Is there any reason not to take Vanguard Veterans instead of the basic JP assault squad? It's only a few points more but they seem much better. Having said that, is there any reason no to take Death Company over Vanguard Veterans, since that's only a few points more and you get black rage? I can see fluff reasons for taking other options, but looking at efficiency and fit for purpose it seems Death Company is the way to go... or am I missing something?

Razerous wrote:
How many people brought (or tend to bring) the relic hammer over the wings or no relic at all.

2+ to hit & re-roll 1's on a Thunderhamner seems crazy good

Nope. Give Captain Smashy McSmashFace the relic JP every time.

Why?

Because he is a CC powerhouse but due to the way he built, he will often be running solo. That means he needs to make his charges as reliable as possible. The relic JP lets him reroll failed charges. Combined with DoA, that gives him a 93% (ish) chance to pull off a 9" charge out of Deep Strike. Negating overwatch can also be a big deal, especially if you want to charge something nasty like Wraithguard with D-Scythes.

Even if you run him alongside other units, charging him in first will then protect his men from overwatch too. Giving him Artisan of War for a 4D hammer works out as pretty much the same number of wounds statistically (although skewed slightly in favour of larger targets).

 niv-mizzet wrote:

bananathug wrote:

...capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?)...

A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.

Slamguinius is pure gold haha. Absolutely entertaining.


I have begun contemplating the load outs for a few of my 5 man Tactical Squads. I currently have a few squads with Inferno Pistol & Power Axe on the Sergeant, and a Meltagun in the squad. There is generally 2 of the 5 man squads deployed in a Rhino, but I have been pretty disappointed with the sergeant in those squads. The Inferno Pistol seems like it is eternally half an inch out of range, and the sergeants rarely do any real damage in close combat. Beginning to feel that going Combi-Melta & Chainsword on the sergeant is the better option for the extra range on his gun, and extra attacks in close combat since more often than not they end up charging chaff infantry or just charge in to try and tie something up (like a vehicle). It requires a minor change in my casual 2k list from this:



...to this:



...so very, very minimal changes from one list to the other, but I feel like it will benefit my casual list far more than the Inferno Pistol & Axe combo on the sergeant. Are you guys putting any Inferno Pistols in your Tactical Squads? If so, how are they working for you?

Just wanted to bring one other thing up with drop pods. Don't the pods protect the occupants from things like eldar forwarn with dark reapers since the pod is what's getting shot at and not the occupants? That's how my local game group has been running it, drop pods have become a little more useful when you take one and your opponent is eldar here.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

bananathug wrote:

...capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?)...

A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.

what is the preferred Slamguinius build?

Azuza001 wrote:
Just wanted to bring one other thing up with drop pods. Don't the pods protect the occupants from things like eldar forwarn with dark reapers since the pod is what's getting shot at and not the occupants? That's how my local game group has been running it, drop pods have become a little more useful when you take one and your opponent is eldar here.

I would assume that is how it works, yeah. That wasn't something I thought about, but still doesn't seem enough to swing me in favor of taking them.

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

bananathug wrote:

...capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?)...

A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.

what is the preferred Slamguinius build?

Captain with Jump Pack, (Angel's Wing Relic) and Iron Halo, armed with a Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, along with Grenades (Frag & Krak). Run him with the Artisan of War WL Trait so his hammer does 4 wounds.damage per successful attack that makes it though your opponent's armor.

I personally plan on running mine without the Storm Shield, since you'e paying for an Iron Halo on him anyway for the 4++ save, and give him a Bolt Pistol for budget reasons, or an Infeno Pistol to help add more damage potential to him whether he's in melee or not.

Also, "Slamguinius" is both glorious and hilarious at the same time. I will be using this from now on.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.

No, it's not.

Captn Slamguinius on a bike with SS, death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal. Thats T5, W6, 3++, 5+++ rerolling 1s. He can still use his BS 2+ with the bikes twin boltguns. Teams up with lemartes because he is death company and can reroll failed charge and failed hit rolls.

Slamguinius doesn’t need the storm shield IMO. Waste of points.

I played a game last night. I won, but it was a hollow victory. Ended at the end of turn 5, VP score 5-2 for me. I finished the game with one model left; my sanguinary Ancient warlord with relic banner. My regular Death Guard opponent and I played the recon mission from Chapter Approved. My starting force on the table was 8 Sang Guard, the Ancient, and JP Librarian.

I got first turn, which was awful. Only targets were poxwalker bubble wrap around a plaguecaster and crawler. My Vanguard Vets showed up, along with Libby dread and two Intercessor squads. I obliterated his poxwalkers, consolidated into the crawler and plaguecaster, didn’t spend the 3 CP to fight again and kill the caster (I doubt I’ll ever make that mistake again; their buffs and mortal wound generation are too punishing to allow to live). His first turn a unit of 20 CC plague marines showed up (as my eyes bug out of my head) with the grenade character and daemon prince. He burns 3 command points and uses a ridiculous grenade salvo to wipe my VV and reduce my 8 SG to 2 (one with a wound on it). He charges the SG, and kills the last two.

My second turn my captain and third Intercessor Squad show up. I place the captain like a fool to charge the DP instead of crawler; my librarian dread buffs the hell out of itself. Captain has jump pack relic; I charge him against a target with no ranged weapon; he bounces off the DP and gets eviscerated. My Libby dread puts 8 wounds on the plagueburst crawler after eating an entropy cannon shot in overwatch that did 6 damage. I use Wings of Fire to blast my Ancient to safety away from the 18 plagur marines (he killed 2 when they consolidated into him in my opponents first turn).

His second turn involves two smites that finish the last wound on my captain and last 2 on the dread. The rest of the game involves him slowly walking his army across the table to objectives I hold. My ancient and JP librarian form a small core with 3 int squads. The relic banner helped them live for quite a long time.

DG are so slow that he accomplished one objective in 5 turns, and got linebreaker in the end. His turn 5 killed the last of my Intercessors after my SGA fled and hid behind a wall to avoid a tabling.

Hollow victory indeed. Mission type and deployment (corner quadrant type) worked against me, but I mostly worked against myself. Had I played one of my elite units more conservatively they would have been out of grenade range. Had I charged the tank with my captain the dread wouldn’t have been hurt until the tank blew up (which it likely would have after), then Libby when captwin could worry about DP after, and the tank wouldn’t have been able to take pot shots at my units for 4 turns. Plenty of unforced errors, but important lessons learned. Why do I always charge Daemon Princes to try and kill them in glorious CC? It almost never works in my favour lol. Also, I hate plague burst crawlers. T8 3+ 5++ 5+++ 12W is just...something else.

The game could have gone differently though; had his marine squad started on the board the SG would have assuredly wiped them in the first turn taking out about 450 of 1250 points (instead their grenade antics removed about 450 of points from me lol). Such is life! Next game may be different.

Plus, after turn 5 I can only assume a stormraven came and picked up the SGA so the chapter banner didn’t fall into enemy hands.

Spado wrote:
Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.

Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)

You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.

Just my 2 pennies.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's not.

Especially since people are running him with Visions for maximum smashitude. The 17% drop off in saves worth the decrease in points and possibility to take a weapon in the other hand.

Red_Thirst, do you run your Captain with two bolt pistols? Because he already comes with one (Captains have two slots and a bolt pistol). Not sure what good options there are for that other arm though. Combi-Melta? Combi-Plasma?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's not.

Especially since people are running him with Visions for maximum smashitude. The 17% drop off in saves worth the decrease in points and possibility to take a weapon in the other hand.

Red_Thirst, do you run your Captain with two bolt pistols? Because he already comes with one (Captains have two slots and a bolt pistol). Not sure what good options there are for that other arm though. Combi-Melta? Combi-Plasma?

I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also. I've taken to opting for a bolt pistol in every build (Because it's free) and have considered running a plasma pistol instead for the added shot at a wound with -3 AP, or, if I'm feeling like spending the points, give him an inferno pistol. That's only if I've got a few points a the end of the list building process. If I'm 9 to 10 points below my point limit, he gets the Inferno pistol. There's only a 2 point difference between plasma and inferno, and I do prefer the inferno pistol over the plasma if I'm honest. Higher strength and d6 damage make up for the shorter range.

I'm actually building and painting my Slamguinius model now. I've been using my 7th edition captain miniature, which has a Relic Blade, Hand Flamer and Jump Pack. He's been putting in great work in 8th edition with the Relic Blade and Artisan of War warlord trait. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Slamguinius build works on him soon.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Storm bolter - 2pts and it doubles the firepower of the pistol

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Spado wrote:
Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.

Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)

You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.

I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.

Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).

 Red__Thirst wrote:


I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also.

Battlescribe is wrong. I like battlescribe a lot, but it has its bugs, dont trust it, always check with your codex. The captain can replace his master crafted boltgun with an item from the pistols list.

 p5freak wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:


I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also.

Battlescribe is wrong. I like battlescribe a lot, but it has its bugs, dont trust it, always check with your codex. The captain can replace his master crafted boltgun with an item from the pistols list.

Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.

That's fair. I just opt to keep him melee focused and only drop the points for a plasma or inferno pistol if, at the end of the list, I'm 7 to 10 points below my point threshold. Also, he can use it whether he's in melee or not, which is why I like it over options like a Master Crafted boltgun, combi-weapon, or storm bolter.

Just my preference. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.

Question is why would you run a captain with two bolt pistols ? Company veterans can run with two plasma or two inferno pistols, you can choose freely from the pistols list. But a captain must have at least one bolt pistol, its ridiculous. He should be able to choose whatever he wants.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Spado wrote:
Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.

Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)

You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.

I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.

Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).

What buffs are those? Thunder hammer, artisan of war (meaning you give your opponent “slay the warlord” with a bow on top), red rampage, death visions, unleash rage average what, 7 wounds on an 18 wound model? Burning a CP for a reroll and 2-3 for Honour the Chapter or Only in Death won’t get you there on average. Of course there’s a chance, but it’s fairly far from a good chance. And will cost you 4-6 command points, and a psychic power. Am I missing something? I hope I am; I play against DG weekly. The relic hammer averages even less damage if my math is right. Warlord Lib dread has a better chance of killing him, and still won’t do it on average.

Bremon wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Spado wrote:
Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.

Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)

You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.

I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.

Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).

What buffs are those? Thunder hammer, artisan of war (meaning you give your opponent “slay the warlord” with a bow on top), red rampage, death visions, unleash rage average what, 7 wounds on an 18 wound model? Burning a CP for a reroll and 2-3 for Honour the Chapter or Only in Death won’t get you there on average. Of course there’s a chance, but it’s fairly far from a good chance. And will cost you 4-6 command points, and a psychic power. Am I missing something? I hope I am; I play against DG weekly. The relic hammer averages even less damage if my math is right. Warlord Lib dread has a better chance of killing him, and still won’t do it on average.

He starts with 4 attacks.
Add 1 for Death Visions of Sanguinus: 5 attacks
Red Rampage for D3 attacks (2 attacks average, let's say): 7 attacks. (Minimum 6, Maximum 8)
If you want to throw Unleash Rage on him from a nearby source you have (Situational, but viable) that gives another attack: 8 attacks (Minimum 7, Maximum 9)

Now, he swings let's say 7 (or 8) times. You're likely to roll a couple of 1's but re-rolling 1's thanks to Rites of Battle means you're going to hit with all attacks the vast majority of the time. For the purposes of this, let's say all 7 (or 8) attacks hit.

You then roll to wound with them. Against anything below toughness 8, you're going to wound it on 2's. Toughness 8? You'll wound it on 3's. I've not seen much outside of super heavies that have a higher toughness than 8.

Now, roll to wound, and maybe burn a re-roll for 1 CP if you want to on the inevitable 1 (or 2 for T:8). You should have 6 or 7 (maybe even 8) wounds on target ideally, at 4 damage a wound. That's twenty-eight to thirty-two damage on a target. With 4++ that's an average of three or four saves made, resulting in 12 to 16 damage worth of wounds on average. Against something like a Knight or other super-heavy, you just picked it up in one-fell-swoop. Land Raider? Also dead. Greater Daemon? Yea, smashed. Granted, against a harder target like Mortarion, the numbers drop off, and you'll likely only put 8 to 12 wounds on target (before disgustingly resilient kicks in) if you're lucky. Still, doing 10+ wounds to Mortarion in a single round is something to sit up and take note of.
Oh yea, if they swing back on your captain and kill him, use Only in Death Does Duty End and attack again. If you didn't kill what you attacked the first time, you certainly should with the second round of attacks. It's cheaper than Honor of the Chapter thankfully too as far as CP cost is concerned, and if he's still alive at the end of the combat, then just burn Honor of the Chapter for 3 CP.

The great thing about both Only in Death Does Duty End and Honor of the Chapter is that they take your captain's attack profile in that turn from earlier in the combat. So whatever you rolled on Red Rampage will still apply to the second round of attacks, and if you charged in with Death Visions of Sanguinius, that bonus attack is also still present (Since you did charge in the preceding charge phase). So, D3 rolls depending, you have that same 6 to 8 attacks again (or more if you were able to throw Unleash Rage on him as well, which will still be in effect also.).

Pound for pound, very little in the game can match the raw damage output of Captain Slamguinius, who can put upwards of Fifty damage on a target, with a maximum possible of SIXTY-FOUR damage(!!!) without a psychcic buff present, using 5 to 7 CP, which is a healthy CP expenditure for sure. (One CP for DVoS, One CP for Red Rampage, Two CP for DoA, Two CP for OiDDDE if the captain is killed, or Three CP for HotC, if needed.)

In closing:



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Edit: Stupid image tags...

Does anyone think throwing Gabe Seth in to babysit some devastators would be worth it? Him and the lieutenant would provide a little counter assault. Looks like we can eek out a small fire base and still have the points to include the vanguard element with Captain Smash face. I have Veterans and sanguinary guard in there now but does anyone think spending the points on Death Company may be better for this list? (DC might also be fluffier for a partial Flesh Tearers Force)

Thanks for any advice. I only play occasionally.

LOL nice image Red Thirst. I would say you’re basically guaranteed one miss with Slamguinius because with a standard thunder hammer hit rolls of 2 are dead, and you really ought to have the relic jump pack on him rather than borrowing Karlaen’s hammer (plus if you want to give away slay the warlord our insane DC captain really ought to be an artisan). So realistically, captain smash isn’t going to be lucky to crack a foetid bloatdrone, let alone Morty or a Crawler, without using 4+CP. Against more standard targets, absolutely; he’s a wrecking machine, but to tell those reading the thread he has a good chance of killing Mortarion...well that’s foolish. That requires careful positioning, likely using Descent of Angels, so you’re probably looking at 7-8 CP and odds are higher that Morty doesn’t die. Will he be hurt? Absolutely. Let’s not pretend we have a bargain basement primarch in our list though. As often as Slamguinius kills Mortarion he will just as often do what he did in my last game; inflict 0 damage on a Daemon Prince and have his body turned to ribbons from head to toe lol.

Seriously? You did no damage to a Daemon Prince?

What?...

No buffs? You just swung on him with the hammer and his base 4 (or 5 with DVoS) attacks? Did you whiff on 3 or 4 of them?

Daemon Princes have a 5++ invuln save, or no better than a 4++ if my memory serves. Nurgle DP's get the Disgustingly Resilient as well, so that's an added thing.

Barring you just whiffed like crazy, you should have been able to put at LEAST 8 to 12 damage on target before saves, maybe more. Any hits you get will be wounding on 2's. Now if he just rolled crazy good invulnerable saves then fair play. If that's what went down, it sucks that happened. That said you can always bring the OiDDDE stratagem into play had he swung back and killed your captain, getting a second full round of swings is always a good way to literally go down swinging.

I never said he was a bargain basement primarch. I am saying he will absolutely OBLITERATE whatever he charges* if you burn some strategic CP into him. (*Short of something like Mortarion or Magnus, etc)

Rolling it out, he killed a knight in one round, a land raider one round, and poleaxed a Daemon Prince like a harp seal in one round of swinging.

Rolling it out here, live and in color:

Slamguinius with DVoS, and Angel's Wing JP (-1 CP)

Charge in from DS with DoA: Rolled an 8, rerolling gives a 12" Charge (3D6) (-2 CP)

Rolling 1D6 for Red Rampage: 3, so +2 attacks (-1 CP)

Swing first, 7 attacks: 4, 3, 2, 2, 5, 6, 6. Five hits, no rerolls.

Toughness 7 or lower (I know of no DP's with toughness higher than 7) wounding on 2+

Roll 5 to-wound D6: 3, 1, 2, 1, 6. Three wounds at 4 Damage Each

Roll saves of 5++ for a Daemon Prince: 3, 4, 1. Twelve Wounds inflicted. Absent re-rolls, or Disgustingly Resilient rule, that's a dead daemon prince.

Granted that's one roll-off, but still, it shows that you could easily smash a Daemon Prince aside with little effort, and a Knight or even a Land Raider would be easy to destroy with only 4 or so CP spent in the effort most of the time.

It's no primarch, but I'll take it all day long.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 p5freak wrote:
Captn Slamguinius on a bike with SS, death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal. Thats T5, W6, 3++, 5+++ rerolling 1s. He can still use his BS 2+ with the bikes twin boltguns. Teams up with lemartes because he is death company and can reroll failed charge and failed hit rolls.

As good as this would be, I don't think it's really worth the endeavor of doing as this will likely be illegal next edition. I got kinda hyped by this idea though, running him with a bunch of Scout Bikers backed up by fire support. I'm kind of questioning the legality of it now. The original Captain on Bike was for "Space Marines" and this is Blood Angels and not vanilla Space Marines, which is technically different. I don't know the stance on this whether it would be legal or not.

 p5freak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.

Question is why would you run a captain with two bolt pistols ? Company veterans can run with two plasma or two inferno pistols, you can choose freely from the pistols list. But a captain must have at least one bolt pistol, its ridiculous. He should be able to choose whatever he wants.

I suppose if you wanted him cheap. He can shoot both bolt pistols during close combat, so it is decent. Obviously, if you want to Shell out more points, you can take an Inferno Pistol or plasma pistol. It is a little bizarre that you can't change his bolt pistol out for another pistol.

Yeah,
I'm going to piggy pack off Red Thirst and vouch for Slamguinius. I stand by that character 100% every time. The first game I used him, in my first turn it completely erased a shadow sword. Artisan of War combined with the relic jump pack is sooooo goooooood. Command points are there to spend, so who cares if deleting a 500+ point lord of war costs some? Even if he dies which he will, trading a 120 pt model for a 500pt lord of war is always worth it every time.
To say smash captain "isn't good" is just crazy talk.



Keep on smashin.

I don’t think anyone is arguing he “isn’t good”. I certainly wouldn’t take that position. I’m arguing that you shouldn’t expect miracles, which, frankly, is what expecting a 120ish point model to take out a Daemon Primarch would be.

And yes, Red Thirst, 0 damage. Between 2s to hit, 1s to wound, and passed invulnerable saves, he did 0 wounds to a nurgle Daemon Prince and then got carved up by said Daemon Prince (who left him with one wound) and a smite killed him next turn. That was just the nature of that game; all my goodies got eviscerated through circumstance and bad rolling. My opponent and I in our post game chat definitely saw where things could have been different based on the scenario alone. He’s fearful of sanguinary Guard, but I think he has no fear yet of Captain Slamguinius, which I’ll certainly use to my advantage next week.

At the same time, you can reliably do a significant bit of damage. There will always be outliers where you either miss everything and/or the enemy makes every save.

As a whole, Capt. Smash will more than make up his points in the damage he can inflict. Due to his rerolling 1's and wounding everything on a 2+, he's a reliable damage dealer. I think it's safe to say that he is an extremely reliable damage dealer for the points he has. He's not getting shot off the table turn 1. He's making almost every one of his charges. He's not missing more than 1 or 2 attacks while dealing 4 damage a piece. He's a solid character and arguably the best overall unit in the codex.