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Voss wrote:

FEC are a fantastic concept, I just think GW didn't have time to give them more models and so went a bit overboard with trying to power them up. What they really need are more models that start to play with their mad impressions of themselves.

Well, models are part of the problem. A mental break that so complete that they can't differentiate 'I'm riding my noble steed' from 'oh, no, I'm actually running myself' is so total as to make the person completely nonfunctional. Same in combat- if you think you're swinging a sword and blocking with a shield and relying on armor when you're actually completely naked and trying to claw and bite someone, that just means you're easily killed.

That isn't actually how it works--they don't hallucinate it. They are running, clawing, biting, etc as their actual movements, they simply interpret what their senses are feeding them as something completely different from reality. A ghoul could bite a person's throat out and believe he was instead stabbing him in the neck with a dagger--despite there being next to no sensory input to justify that conclusion. That is what a delusion is; believing something wholly unsupported by available senses/evidence. This is opposed to a hallucination where the information being provided by the senses is false.

There's a neat FEC short story in the horrors section that I think shows off their mental state quite nicely.
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-horror/whh-aos/he-feasts-forever-eshort-2019.html

FEC are an army who don't on the outside show what their story really is. It's an army who I think will get this reinforced more so when GW get a chance to come back to them and give them a wave of new designs.



Also when it comes to creatures on horesback remember those are not going to be the general ghouls on foot; but things like the part winged lords and beasts. Those who are larger and faster; their minds crippled enough that an inhuman running speed and size messes with their mind into them being atop a powerful war horse or pegasus.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

FEC are a fantastic concept, I just think GW didn't have time to give them more models and so went a bit overboard with trying to power them up. What they really need are more models that start to play with their mad impressions of themselves.

Well, models are part of the problem. A mental break that so complete that they can't differentiate 'I'm riding my noble steed' from 'oh, no, I'm actually running myself' is so total as to make the person completely nonfunctional. Same in combat- if you think you're swinging a sword and blocking with a shield and relying on armor when you're actually completely naked and trying to claw and bite someone, that just means you're easily killed.

That isn't actually how it works--they don't hallucinate it. They are running, clawing, biting, etc as their actual movements, they simply interpret what their senses are feeding them as something completely different from reality. A ghoul could bite a person's throat out and believe he was instead stabbing him in the neck with a dagger--despite there being next to no sensory input to justify that conclusion. That is what a delusion is; believing something wholly unsupported by available senses/evidence. This is opposed to a hallucination where the information being provided by the senses is false.

That clarification doesn't help. If reality isn't happening how they perceive or interpret it, they're helpless to whatever actually _is_ happening.
Their fluff has them seeing things that aren't there and not seeing things that are. That simply isn't functional- a tapestry in ragged strips would be perceived as a whole tapestry, and an enemy could hide behind the rags. Its absurd.

Agreed. Calling some of these units cavalry when they are not even riding anything only put emphasis on the shallowness of the range of the FEC. Missed oppurtinity imo as they are a really cool concept.

Voss wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

FEC are a fantastic concept, I just think GW didn't have time to give them more models and so went a bit overboard with trying to power them up. What they really need are more models that start to play with their mad impressions of themselves.

Well, models are part of the problem. A mental break that so complete that they can't differentiate 'I'm riding my noble steed' from 'oh, no, I'm actually running myself' is so total as to make the person completely nonfunctional. Same in combat- if you think you're swinging a sword and blocking with a shield and relying on armor when you're actually completely naked and trying to claw and bite someone, that just means you're easily killed.

That isn't actually how it works--they don't hallucinate it. They are running, clawing, biting, etc as their actual movements, they simply interpret what their senses are feeding them as something completely different from reality. A ghoul could bite a person's throat out and believe he was instead stabbing him in the neck with a dagger--despite there being next to no sensory input to justify that conclusion. That is what a delusion is; believing something wholly unsupported by available senses/evidence. This is opposed to a hallucination where the information being provided by the senses is false.

That clarification doesn't help. If reality isn't happening how they perceive or interpret it, they're helpless to whatever actually _is_ happening.
Their fluff has them seeing things that aren't there and not seeing things that are. That simply isn't functional- a tapestry in ragged strips would be perceived as a whole tapestry, and an enemy could hide behind the rags. Its absurd.

In that example they would see the enemy, know it was there, and still believe it was a whole tapestry despite being able to see through the gaps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Agreed. Calling some of these units cavalry when they are not even riding anything only put emphasis on the shallowness of the range of the FEC. Missed oppurtinity imo as they are a really cool concept.

It is a specific case; not all Crypt Horrors see themselves as cavalry, that is just the nature of certain delusions. They are giving people room to make their own army fluff. Further, it is not a 'missed opportunity' it is an opportunity they took to squeeze an army out of a handful of old kits. We have abundant examples in AoS displaying the alternative; being a tiny sub-faction and/or being cut entirely. Given the choice between FEC as we have or FEC analogous to one of the various Aelf factions which do you feel was the better business choice?

Voss wrote:
If reality isn't happening how they perceive or interpret it, they're helpless to whatever actually _is_ happening.

It's not mundane delusion, though. It's a Cartesian Demon situation. The entirely magical curse they are under creatively reinterprets what's going on around them to maintain the illusion, and presumably also reinterprets the signals going from their brains to their muscles so they move and fight in a way that works with what is actually happening.

I agree it's a bit silly when you try to analyse the practicalities of it, but it's not implausible within the context of the AoS setting (i.e. a setting where spells and curses can themselves be intelligent). It's not objectively dafter than zombies and skeletons (e.g. how do they move with no muscles? how do they blow warhorns with no lungs?).

FWIW, I don't personally like the FEC concept and would never play them. Like Necrons and Tyranids in 40K, I just don't have any interest in factions with zero agency. FEC also feel like a bit of a deliberate "Eff you" from GW to Bretonnian players. But they still fit into the setting just as well as any other army concept.

For Skellingtons, the magic provides the relevant musculature

I need to say that the new Ogor Tyrant model is sexy. That is all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Skellingtons, the magic provides the relevant musculature

Well that's my point. There's a whole load of things in AoS you can make perfectly plausible-in-setting post hoc rationalisations for. A wizard did it, basically. Magic in AoS has already been established to be able to handle things just as apparently difficult to explain as the FEC curse delusions. What Voss seems to believe is an unexplainable suspension-of-disbelief-wrecking flaw in the FEC concept actually... isn't. The very simple answer is just "A Cartesian Demon Did It".

Think of the Flesh Easters as thinking on two levels. Their mind is split between the feral monsters that they are and the higher thinking parts of their mind. The higher thinking parts of their brain are basically fooled into thinking they are serfs and knights in vast castles dining on wonderful feasts and jousting etc.. Meanwhile the ghoul part of their body and mind is a raving cannibal with rank breath and feasting on gutted bodies.

It's like an extreme duel personality where both halves are thinking at the same time. Only one half is along for the ride whilst the other is totally a monster.

It's just a really powerful rationalization that they make to still see themselves as good people despite resorting to cannibalism to survive. Just a few levels beyond smokers who actively disbelieve they are hurting themselves and others. Or people who run someone over and rewrite their memories to make it not their fault.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Skellingtons, the magic provides the relevant musculature

Well that's my point. There's a whole load of things in AoS you can make perfectly plausible-in-setting post hoc rationalisations for. A wizard did it, basically. Magic in AoS has already been established to be able to handle things just as apparently difficult to explain as the FEC curse delusions. What Voss seems to believe is an unexplainable suspension-of-disbelief-wrecking flaw in the FEC concept actually... isn't. The very simple answer is just "A Cartesian Demon Did It".

Which is probably part of my problem with it. Cartesian philosophy is lazy garbage. He doesn't manage to prove 'I think therefore I am,' he just assumes the existence of a god that wouldn't let demons trick people.

But mostly its because a 'delusion' involves being objectively wrong about the world- that's its flat, or the moon landing didn't happen, an unfaithful spouse isn't, or a grandson is actually a son at the same age.

And from where I sit, a faction who's premise is that its objectively wrong isn't interesting. Possibly its tasteless mockery of people with actual problems, or the entire faction is just stupid. I'm not actually sure which is worse, but neither is intriguing in the least.

@blackfang- that's really uninteresting though. If its desperation and need, morality of cannibalism isn't really an issue (especially if it doesn't also involve murder). If its a cultural norm, cannibalism isn't even morally wrong. There isn't even any point in a reality altering 'delusion' in those cases.

Well, that and Nagash thought it was funny.

You can tell by his massive grin.

I'm not 100% on why we're debating FEC fluff here, but I do agree that GW dropped the ball on helping realize in model-terms what is IMO one of the more impressive faction backgrounds in the post-WHFB world. Naturally, enterprising modellers can take matters into their own hands, like the dude who made this coven throne:

I could have sworn WarCom did an army showcase on another FEC-as-corrupted-nobility or FEC-as-literal-carnivalesque but I can't seem to dig it up.

Anyway, I too came here to say the new plastic Tyrant is a) awesome and b) about fething time. I've been waiting for a Gutbuster book since we were barfed into this world of realms.

I think the new Death models have to further explore the design language of Nagash, Morghasts and Arkhan. Probably no Skellies, as we already got them in two flavours, but more boney constructs.

Voss wrote:
Cartesian philosophy is lazy garbage. He doesn't manage to prove 'I think therefore I am,' he just assumes the existence of a god that wouldn't let demons trick people.

I agree with you there. But the 'Cartesian Demon' concept itself is a perfectly valid setup for a thought experiment even if the 'logic' Descartes follows after that is nonsense. From what we currently know of neuroscience and cognitive science, it is almost certainly theoretically possible to rewire a human brain to effectively Cartesian Demon them into living in an illusionary world we create. And we might not even be too far away from having the technology to actually do it.

a faction who's premise is that its objectively wrong isn't interesting.

Then I suggest you stay far away from all GW games / settings. Because everyone being objectively wrong is kinda a defining feature...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

FEC are a fantastic concept, I just think GW didn't have time to give them more models and so went a bit overboard with trying to power them up. What they really need are more models that start to play with their mad impressions of themselves.

Well, models are part of the problem. A mental break that so complete that they can't differentiate 'I'm riding my noble steed' from 'oh, no, I'm actually running myself' is so total as to make the person completely nonfunctional. Same in combat- if you think you're swinging a sword and blocking with a shield and relying on armor when you're actually completely naked and trying to claw and bite someone, that just means you're easily killed.

That isn't actually how it works--they don't hallucinate it. They are running, clawing, biting, etc as their actual movements, they simply interpret what their senses are feeding them as something completely different from reality. A ghoul could bite a person's throat out and believe he was instead stabbing him in the neck with a dagger--despite there being next to no sensory input to justify that conclusion. That is what a delusion is; believing something wholly unsupported by available senses/evidence. This is opposed to a hallucination where the information being provided by the senses is false.

That clarification doesn't help. If reality isn't happening how they perceive or interpret it, they're helpless to whatever actually _is_ happening.
Their fluff has them seeing things that aren't there and not seeing things that are. That simply isn't functional- a tapestry in ragged strips would be perceived as a whole tapestry, and an enemy could hide behind the rags. Its absurd.

In that example they would see the enemy, know it was there, and still believe it was a whole tapestry despite being able to see through the gaps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Agreed. Calling some of these units cavalry when they are not even riding anything only put emphasis on the shallowness of the range of the FEC. Missed oppurtinity imo as they are a really cool concept.

It is a specific case; not all Crypt Horrors see themselves as cavalry, that is just the nature of certain delusions. They are giving people room to make their own army fluff. Further, it is not a 'missed opportunity' it is an opportunity they took to squeeze an army out of a handful of old kits. We have abundant examples in AoS displaying the alternative; being a tiny sub-faction and/or being cut entirely. Given the choice between FEC as we have or FEC analogous to one of the various Aelf factions which do you feel was the better business choice?

Its a missed opportunity cause it seems like its a faction that a lot of persons are interested in, yet having so few kits (and no new ones) pretty much kills all the enthusiasm. If they had given them 2 new kits (instead of releasing yet another stormcast kits that interest 4 or 5 persons), im pretty sure they would have been really popular

So they took an opportunity to take a handful of old kits and make a faction people are really interested in without needing to add the significant effort involved in making new kits. To me it seems like they capitalized on their opportunity quite well.

I really wish they would have done some new models, even if it was some clampack hero.

 Crimson wrote:
I really wish they would have done some new models, even if it was some clampack hero.

Well they did do that, he's just not on general sale yet.

Would be nice to get a plastic dual kit Varghulf, that would add a new unit and make the army 100% plastic.

 Crimson wrote:
I really wish they would have done some new models, even if it was some clampack hero.

They did and tbh I'm not sure it bodes well for future FEC releases. It seems that what people want is essentially degenerate Bretonnians, with lots of typical GW black humour. What they got was a vampire wearing a pauldron.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I really wish they would have done some new models, even if it was some clampack hero.

Well they did do that, he's just not on general sale yet.

Would be nice to get a plastic dual kit Varghulf, that would add a new unit and make the army 100% plastic.

That's what I want to see, the current varghulf does not match the aethetic.

A number of Order units and characters are last chance to buy on the Aus GW page with pre-orders this week.

Last Chance to Buy

RIP the last (plastic) Slayer (that wear pants). He was exiled for the crime of having basic Duardin-decency.

Chopstick wrote:
RIP the last (plastic) Slayer (that wear pants). He was exiled for the crime of having basic Duardin-decency.

We got THE Slayer coming soon.

 nels1031 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
RIP the last (plastic) Slayer (that wear pants). He was exiled for the crime of having basic Duardin-decency.

We got THE Slayer coming soon.

Gotrek? I'm pretty sure he's resin dude. (Although I hoped that I'm wrong)

Andarus wrote:
A number of Order units and characters are last chance to buy on the Aus GW page with pre-orders this week.

Last Chance to Buy

Wow

WarCom wrote:The arrival of Cities of Sigmar does mean a handful of Order units will be leaving the range and becoming Warhammer Legends later this year.

GW has a hugely different definition of 'handful' than I do (out of 87 aelves, dispossed and free peoples units/characters, they're axing 33)
Some of those kits aren't even that old. The metal (resin) characters aren't a surprise, but they kept the dark elf spears and ditched the glade guard? Crazy stuff.

Voss wrote:
... but they kept the dark elf spears and ditched the glade guard? Crazy stuff.

Aside from practicality (doesn't the Dark Elf kit build 3 different units?), the Wood Elves are being redesigned into Satyrs/Faun/Centaur creatures. That's why the Wood Elf stuff is going bye bye.

I'm starting to suspect that the comment of AoS being a post apocalyptical world with mutated "elves" is true.

Feeling rather sad, to be honest.

I'm most surprised by the skycutter and war alter going the way of the dodo, both fit the Aos styling so well with how weird they are.