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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Except the old 'multipose' kit isn't 40 slightly different poses. It's one pose, yet you prefer it over a kit with more posing (an entirely valid preference). It gets to the core of the matter: neither monopose or multipose are inherently good or bad. The wider context of what the poses are, what the kit looks like, what role the unit serves, the system the unit is in, and the fluff behind that unit all factor in.

Despite quoting it, you appear to have missed the point of what Coenus was saying:

"I am definitely one of those people that would have rather have 40 slightly different models, than 10 very different models times 4. The similarity will just stand out like a sore thumb, especially with particularly dynamic poses."

The 10 dynamic poses repeated over and over again will stand out very quickly (add to that the pattern recognition comment from earlier).

Think of it this way. When GW puts up a picture of new minis and photoshops the same mini in a few times, we notice it, because we notice the same mini repeated. With the multi-part Chaos Warrior kit it's not something that you ever think about. They're all roughly the same and most of them is covered up by their fur cloak and giant shield. With these guys, you're always going to notice Champion pointing his mace forward, or the guy holding the mace about his head, or the flail on the Knight champion over and over again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Except the old 'multipose' kit isn't 40 slightly different poses. It's one pose, yet you prefer it over a kit with more posing (an entirely valid preference). It gets to the core of the matter: neither monopose or multipose are inherently good or bad. The wider context of what the poses are, what the kit looks like, what role the unit serves, the system the unit is in, and the fluff behind that unit all factor in.

Despite quoting it, you appear to have missed the point of what Coenus was saying:

"I am definitely one of those people that would have rather have 40 slightly different models, than 10 very different models times 4. The similarity will just stand out like a sore thumb, especially with particularly dynamic poses."

The 10 dynamic poses repeated over and over again will stand out very quickly (add to that the pattern recognition comment from earlier).

Think of it this way. When GW puts up a picture of new minis and photoshops the same mini in a few times, we notice it, because we notice the same mini repeated. With the multi-part Chaos Warrior kit it's not something that you ever think about. They're all roughly the same and most of them is covered up by their fur cloak and giant shield. With these guys, you're always going to notice Champion pointing his mace forward, or the guy holding the mace about his head, or the flail on the Knight champion over and over again.

Despite quoting it, you appear to have missed the point of what I was saying. What you said even supports my argument.

Whatever... I'm not doing this dance with you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Whatever... I'm not doing this dance with you.

It is interesting that I agree with you, then you find a way to disagree with me agreeing with you.

Besides...we’re all capable of swapping/cutting weapons out and swapping heads. If you have 40 that all look like 4 copies of the same 10 guys it’s your own fault.
Example: cut mace, glue on sword from classic kit (or even a new one). New model done.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Besides...we’re all capable of swapping/cutting weapons out and swapping heads.

That shouldn't be a requirement to make things look different though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Besides...we’re all capable of swapping/cutting weapons out and swapping heads.

That shouldn't be a requirement to make things look different though.

So you keep the minis on their sprues and play it like that?

While it shouldn’t be, we also haven’t seen the sprue layout yet. There might be some shuffling around of weapon parts/hands and/or shields. We already know we have 20 head choices. So we’re already at >20models to have “identical” models. So the sky might be falling because a squirrel threw an acorn at somebody.

NinthMusketeer wrote:If it were a matter of rank & file I would definitely go with the old ones. They ranked up so well, and looked so good when they did.

They sure did rank up incredibly well - I converted a unit to Grave Guard (representing the dead Chaos warriors lost in Sylvania when Crom invaded during the Storm of Chaos.. probably retconned since?), and somehow managed to squeeze them onto 20mm bases. Admittedly a very tight fit, but even that worked!

NinthMusketeer wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
I am definitely one of those people that would have rather have 40 slightly different models, than 10 very different models times 4. The similarity will just stand out like a sore thumb, especially with particularly dynamic poses.

Good to see some people get what I'm talking about.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Besides, the "slowly striding forwards" poses remind me of the initial glimpses of them in the Mark of Chaos trailer, and that alone makes them good.

That is exactly the image the Chaos Warrior kit summons for me.

I didn't understand how the big deal about Chaos Warriors until I saw that opening movie. I had just assumed that they were nothing more than humans in very good armour. I didn't realise they were huge and basically unstoppable for mere mortals.

Except the old 'multipose' kit isn't 40 slightly different poses. It's one pose, yet you prefer it over a kit with more posing (an entirely valid preference). It gets to the core of the matter: neither monopose or multipose are inherently good or bad. The wider context of what the poses are, what the kit looks like, what role the unit serves, the system the unit is in, and the fluff behind that unit all factor in.

Well, I did say they looked different, not that they had different poses. (Technically correct, the best kind of correct. )
And that's kind of the key here. A block of the old style will look cohesive, disciplined, pretty darn imposing and while (also in my view a tad too) similar, they're clearly not the same. Different hats, shields, weapons. It's not like they're clones...

Now, I mostly like the uniform style and lack of dynamic poses becasue of exhibit A) the Mark of Chaos trailer, and B) what these exact figures represent. Wouldn't want my Marauders to be like this. I think it's also a great look for e.g. Temple Guard, but again, wouldn't want it on skirmishing Skinks.

timetowaste85 wrote:Besides...we’re all capable of swapping/cutting weapons out and swapping heads. If you have 40 that all look like 4 copies of the same 10 guys it’s your own fault.
Example: cut mace, glue on sword from classic kit (or even a new one). New model done.

Sure, and I'd do that. I started this hobby with the Middle-earth figures, which are almost exclusively monopose sculpts. It's a heck of a lot easier if models are designed for this however, with bits that are made to be interchangeable and poses that work with various weapons. As above, you can have 40 of the old style Warriors all be a bit different (wouldn't mind if they were a bit more variable, but they still look great in my opinion). Now, take the guy just left of the centre in the picture below. You can swap the head, weapon and shield all you want, but he's still going to be very recognizable.

Yes, it remains to be seen how many options there might be. But figures like that (or mandatory ammo crate a là Van Saar, burning heretic as per Sororitas flamer) I'm just not a fan of. Especially when the dynamic poses cost optionality, because recent kits like this typically don't have weapons or shields that can easily be swapped between models (or indeed between kits).
And it's not like you can't have dynamic poses that still work well with numerous options, like these Victrix Dark Age figures, if bothering to design them that way:

you can have 40 of the old style Warriors all be a bit different

No, they won't. They all have the same pose, and if swapping heads doesn't make the new models unique poses, neither does swapping sword for axe on the old clonewarriors.

You are allowed to make the claim that the 10-pose kit would look to repetitive without saying that the kit that even back in the day was widely snubbed for it's lack of variability is somehow more multipose.

That's rather unnecessary, and off topic.

I'd love some AoS news and/or rumors though.

That would be cool.

 Alpharius wrote:
That's rather unnecessary, and off topic.

I'd love some AoS news and/or rumors though.

That would be cool.

Eh I'm not expecting any big news now until New Years. I figure we'll have battletome chatter go nuts tomorrow with what's in the battletome and if there's anything new that GW hasn't told us about once the NDA ends for the youtube reviewers. After that eh I don't think we'll get much. Also that BIG spreadsheet leak we had earlier I think is going to have GW go nuts at stopping leaks again for a while so I'd not expect anything new until next year. So a dry spell.

Quite surprised by the Slaves to Darkness sprues. They're not jumbled. The Knights are separate to the Warriors are separate to Lord Crocodile.

Maybe they will come out separately...

Lord Kragan wrote:
So you keep the minis on their sprues and play it like that?

You are missing the point so hard it's like you're doing it on purpose.

Quick rundown on the updated scrolls:

Warriors & Knights
-Basic stats unchanged
-Runeshields do the same thing
-Champion now has +1 attack (instead of +1 to hit)
-Standard & Music are 1 per 5
-Undivided is its own keyword now (and you must take that or a god keyword)

Warriors
-The unit re-rolls all saves (improved from 1s) at 10+ (improved from 20+)
-Dual-weapons re-roll all hits (improved from 1s)
-Still have halberd & great weapon options

Knights
-The champion can take a special weapon option (but its strictly worse than the basic ones so you won't want to)
-Lances get rend -2 on the charge (improved from rend -1 on the charge), but you won't take them because...
-Ensorcelled weapons now wound on a 3+ (improved from 4+) and have rend -1 (improved from -)

Both units got considerably better, and in the right ways. Warriors are (much) tankier and the dual wield option is now worth taking, knights deal more damage more consistently. And that little annoying chore of the champion being a different hit profile is gone too (this pleases me more than it probably should).

The SC is already temporarily out of stock online on the NZ site. I hope the UK discounters will have enough. Might order a second one locally just in case, though.

I wish knights got improved damage on their lances, but more rend, okay, guess that'll have to do. Do knights get any bonus/boni for bigger units? I don't like reading scrolls on my phone.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Knights
-The champion can take a special weapon option (but its strictly worse than the basic ones so you won't want to)
-Lances get rend -2 on the charge (improved from rend -1 on the charge), but you won't take them because...
-Ensorcelled weapons now wound on a 3+ (improved from 4+) and have rend -1 (improved from -)

I dunno about not taking Lance's. On the charge they get +1 damage too in the first line of Impaling Charge. Couple that with the new Lord on Krakalackadile's Command Ability, they're hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s.... Seems decent to me.

I think GW learned from Island of Blood - if you mix armies on the same sprue or even warriors on the same sprue you might make it cheaper to produce that kit - but in contrast you also increase the costs in the long term if you ever want to bring those kits back to the market again. Putting them on their own sprue keeps the doors open to releasing one or more of those models on their own.

The Warriors and Knights I'd expect to remain exclusive to the kit. The leader will likely remain exclusive to the kit until such time as that start collecting set is retired; then the leader can always be moved out on its own and sold separate whilst the warriors and knights are replaced (of course by that stage I'd expect to see GW selling multi-part options for both the warriors and knights as their own kits anyway).



Spears on Knights sounds like you use them basically as a shock attack retinue for the lord; charging in to do maximum damage, perhaps using them as a hero/lord/monster hunting unit that maximises a high rend with a powerful charge. Meanwhile the knights with swords are more independent and suited toward attacking larger blocks of infantry and warriors - able to put out more attacks with some rending.

It makes swords generalist and spears situational.

GMG Battletome review is up

Man Archaon’s point increase is BRUTAL. I wanted to make an army of Chaos Warriors/Knights/Varanguard with him but I’m not sure how you could if you want more than 3 models.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man Archaon’s point increase is BRUTAL. I wanted to make an army of Chaos Warriors/Knights/Varanguard with him but I’m not sure how you could if you want more than 3 models.

Especially with price hikes of warriors (+10pts per 5) and knights (+20pts per 5) if the points page I saw was correct. Oh, I and I think Varaguard with up 40pts per block.

Silver lining, I don't have to buy anymore models now as it looks like I am going from 1800 or so to almost 2000 now with that 50pt increase to my Daemon Prince. Sooo... thanks GW. It remains to be seen if the units warrant their points cost or the buffs given are again removed by the point cost. My benchmark is going to continue to be Bonereapers, and I kinda think my warriors are still going to get ripped to shreds by the Mortek Guard.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man Archaon’s point increase is BRUTAL. I wanted to make an army of Chaos Warriors/Knights/Varanguard with him but I’m not sure how you could if you want more than 3 models.

Especially with price hikes of warriors (+10pts per 5) and knights (+20pts per 5) if the points page I saw was correct. Oh, I and I think Varaguard with up 40pts per block.

Silver lining, I don't have to buy anymore models now as it looks like I am going from 1800 or so to almost 2000 now with that 50pt increase to my Daemon Prince. Sooo... thanks GW. It remains to be seen if the units warrant their points cost or the buffs given are again removed by the point cost. My benchmark is going to continue to be Bonereapers, and I kinda think my warriors are still going to get ripped to shreds by the Mortek Guard.

Yeah I’m struggling to make a list with the point costs he read out. I think I can do one sort of cool though. And I’m really not sure Archaon needed to be changed that much, it seems a little insane, since he was pretty crap before at his 660pts cost. Now he’s seen a few improvements, I’m surprised he went up.

Also it’s hard to compare much with Ossiarchs, they’re quite broken.

At least the Eye of the Gods table isn't so bad. Could have been much worse. And Spawndom/Daemon transformations allow you just to take or heal wounds instead of replacing the model.

So working out some stuffs you can make this list:



I’m not sure if it’d perform particularly well tbh haha, but it would look pretty cool.

 Tiberius501 wrote:


Also it’s hard to compare much with Ossiarchs, they’re quite broken.

Just comparing to the faction I am most likely to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So working out some stuffs you can make this list:

Spoiler:

HEROES
- Archaon
- Lord on foot
BATTLELINE
- 10x Warriors
- 10x Warriors
- 10x Knights
OTHER
- 3x Varanguard

I’m not sure if it’d perform particularly well tbh haha, but it would look pretty cool.

Yeah tough call, I still want groups of 20 for my warriors even if the Save buff only needs 10 now. Maybe 15 could work that maybe gives the warriors 2 rounds of attacks before losing their buff. Maybe. I think if you want knights you will want a group of 10. Although, you could just get another unit of Varaguard at that price too I guess it depends on what you want. Army building is going to be super tricky. I also suspect that including an Everchose core to an army is going to leave you both struggling to capture objectives and removing enemies from the table with the exception of Archaon early game.

I will probably be trying something close to your list though in the future though. It includes all the Everchosen models I have, and I do want to field them at some point.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man Archaon’s point increase is BRUTAL. I wanted to make an army of Chaos Warriors/Knights/Varanguard with him but I’m not sure how you could if you want more than 3 models.

Especially with price hikes of warriors (+10pts per 5) and knights (+20pts per 5) if the points page I saw was correct. Oh, I and I think Varaguard with up 40pts per block.

Silver lining, I don't have to buy anymore models now as it looks like I am going from 1800 or so to almost 2000 now with that 50pt increase to my Daemon Prince. Sooo... thanks GW. It remains to be seen if the units warrant their points cost or the buffs given are again removed by the point cost. My benchmark is going to continue to be Bonereapers, and I kinda think my warriors are still going to get ripped to shreds by the Mortek Guard.

I was concerned the warriors & knights wouldn't go up, considering the massive performance buff they got with the new warscrolls.

Spire Tyrants are interesting (the other warband doesn't seem to be in, sadly)

Tyrants- 9 models, same general cultist statline except 5+ save
1 in 9 models must be
Pit Champion brings extra attacks (+2?)
Headclaimer, +1 to damage characteristic (so 2D)
and
Bestigor Destroyer, also +2(?) attacks

so 13 attacks total per 9 models, one of which is damage 2

Unit ability- pit fighters, +1 to hit if unit charged.

They're... ok. Sadly I think a lot of the warcry cultists are overshadowed by the basic maruaders, since they have an inherent dice manipulation ability- whenever they charge, the lowest die (or one die on a tie) turns into a 6. Automatically, no restrictions. Every time. They can't charge less than 7", and that only happens on double 1. And drummers as well, so minimum 8" charge.
Plus they have two attacks base, +1 to hit if 10+ models, and rend if 20+, and better saves with shields (which you should take).

 Binabik15 wrote:
The SC is already temporarily out of stock online on the NZ site. I hope the UK discounters will have enough. Might order a second one locally just in case, though.

I wish knights got improved damage on their lances, but more rend, okay, guess that'll have to do. Do knights get any bonus/boni for bigger units? I don't like reading scrolls on my phone.

As Carnikang mentioned, they do get +1 damage as well. I didn't mention it because that part is the same as the old warscroll.

 Carnikang wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Knights
-The champion can take a special weapon option (but its strictly worse than the basic ones so you won't want to)
-Lances get rend -2 on the charge (improved from rend -1 on the charge), but you won't take them because...
-Ensorcelled weapons now wound on a 3+ (improved from 4+) and have rend -1 (improved from -)

I dunno about not taking Lance's. On the charge they get +1 damage too in the first line of Impaling Charge. Couple that with the new Lord on Krakalackadile's Command Ability, they're hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s.... Seems decent to me.

Fortunately this is a case where we can run the numbers:

5 Knights w/Lances against 4+ save:
-On charge average damage - 7.36
-Non-charge average - 3.08
-On charge with +1 to hit - 9.8
-Non-charge with +1 to hit - 4.1

5 Knights w/Ensorcelled against a 4+ save:
-Normal average - 7.1
-With +1 to hit - 9.1

The lances' problem is they have a worse hit profile AND less attacks, which really hurts them. Just one or the other and the options would be balanced. TBF they do have a 2" range, but even on the charge they barely do more damage than the ensorcelled weapons do all the time.

Lady Atia has a couple of reviews up, including the warscrolls for the Formoid Crusher and Mindstelaer Sphiranx:

I think the Warcy models will be best used as units to summon in a Ravagers list.

Those are juicy.