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Sterling191 wrote:
Its a single upgraded heavy bolter that can only be taken if the Heavy Intercessor unit takes their version of Stalker Bolt Rifles. Heavy 2 S5, AP2 D3. Theyre not spammable. At most there can be two in a squad that costs ~300 points or so.

They seem to be quite evil anyways. On the datasheet for the heavy intercessors it says every model in the 7 PL unit is equipped with a heavy bolt rifle. It then lists stats for the following weapons:
Executor bolt rifle
Executor heavy bolter
Heavy bolt rifle
Heavy bolter
Hellstorm bolt rifle
Hellstorm heavy bolter

Then it says:
If no model in this unit is equipped with a heavy bolter you can take one of the following options:
* All models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 hellstorm bolt rifle each.
* All models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 executor bolt rifle each.

And then:
For every 5 models in this unit, 1 heavy intercessors heavy bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter, 1 heavy intercessors heavy auto bolt rifle(where is this in the listed weapons? is this the hellstorm bolt rifle?) can be replaced with 1 hellstorm heavy bolter,
or 1 heavy intercessors heavy stalker bolt rifle (or this? or is this the executor bolt rifle?) can be replaced with 1 executor heavy bolter

Besides winning the award for the most uses of heavy and bolt/bolter in a datasheet, I find it very confusing. To me it seems i can either have 4 heavy bolt rifles and a heavy bolter OR 4 hellstorm bolt rifles and a hellstorm heavy bolter
OR 4 executor bolt rifles and one executor heavy bolter. The last one being 4 shots at str5 ap-2 and 2dmg and 1str5 -2 and 3 dmg for potentially 11 dmg at range 42.

Compared to Sagittarum, i think these guys have the same dmg output and resilience. Fewer shots, worse BS (and heavy weap) for BS4 but dmg 2 weaps, vs more shots, better BS but dmg 1 weapons. In a shootout i think the Heavy Intercessors would win, due to having 5 guys with 3 wounds vs 3 guys.

Totto wrote:
To me it seems i can either have 4 heavy bolt rifles and a heavy bolter OR 4 hellstorm bolt rifles and a hellstorm heavy bolter OR 4 executor bolt rifles and one executor heavy bolter?

The Hellstorm and Executor are the Heavy Intercessor variant of the Auto Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle respectively.

Yes, its a convoluted wording (and its actually incorrect because it uses deprecated weapon names). What it means is that you must take the Heavy Bolter variant that corresponds to the armament of the squad. IE: If you take the Heavy Bolt Rifle, you can only take a single Heavy Bolter per 5 marines. Likewise if you take the Hellstorm Bolt Rifles, you have to take the Hellstorm Heavy Bolter. You're still only getting one D3 weapon per 5 models, and only if you take the single shot variant of the basic rifle.

Custodes should be far more terrified of Heavy Plasma Cannons.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would it be too That Guyish to bring a ShadowSword/Custodes List to a local Meta? I have never been able to field this thing once. I bought it just to build it and paint it, and it's just sitting on my book case. But I would love to Break out Zappy in a list of Custodian Shield guards, Captains with shield, and bikes.

Wouldn't bother me in the least. Those things go down fast, iirc.

Thinking of souping in some firepower from Admech. 4 kastelans and some change


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Wait, ignore me, I think I'm remembering the rule wrong, not with my codex right now

The general rule is "Improve Invuln saves by one point, to a max of 4++."

I think you got it right-you just might've missed that Storm Shields are now 4++ and +1 to armor saves, not just a 4++.

I thought 3++ was the cap?

...

Let me check my Dex.

Checked! And yes, it is max of 3++!

So Storm Shield Guardians got better. 2+/3++, ignoring AP-1 pretty much.

Does this mean that in the right cover, they ignore AP2?

 dicerage wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would it be too That Guyish to bring a ShadowSword/Custodes List to a local Meta? I have never been able to field this thing once. I bought it just to build it and paint it, and it's just sitting on my book case. But I would love to Break out Zappy in a list of Custodian Shield guards, Captains with shield, and bikes.

Wouldn't bother me in the least. Those things go down fast, iirc.

Thinking of souping in some firepower from Admech. 4 kastelans and some change


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Wait, ignore me, I think I'm remembering the rule wrong, not with my codex right now

The general rule is "Improve Invuln saves by one point, to a max of 4++."

I think you got it right-you just might've missed that Storm Shields are now 4++ and +1 to armor saves, not just a 4++.

I thought 3++ was the cap?

...

Let me check my Dex.

Checked! And yes, it is max of 3++!

So Storm Shield Guardians got better. 2+/3++, ignoring AP-1 pretty much.

Does this mean that in the right cover, they ignore AP2?

Yes, that's right. Effectively, the shield gives you a +1 to your armor save rolls. So you're always 1D6+1. Cover gives a different +1. Since there are two different sources for bonuses, they stack (and unlike Hits/Wounds aren't capped at -1/+1). So in cover you're 1D6+2. AP-2 gives you a -2 to your roll, so you're still 1D6+0 on a 2+ save characteristic. You need AP-3 to get forced to an invuln.

Edit Note: The shield makes no mention of the shooting phase too, which means you can also ignore AP-1 in the Fight phase and AP-2 in the Fight phase IF the model is in Heavy Cover and the attacker did not charge (see rules for Heavy Cover).

Good stuff!

I don't see this as being THAT major a change for a few reasons:
1. Custodes infantry don't spend a lot of time in cover, sniping. so We likely won't get the heavy cover bonus anyway. Besides, who ever puts objective in heavy cover?

2. If you are using sword and board as the new primary infantry, which is at least advisable, you likely won't be doing much with them except camping objectives. Your transports are too costly to waste on Guardians when they could be transporting terminators, flags, SCs, or naughts.

3. finally, if the rest of these changes to weapons go through, We'll still be taking the Invuln save everytime, because It'll be the same thing kicking our butts in 9th as in 8th. Massed high value shooting, (Eradicators, Melta Speeders, S6+ AP3/4 D2-3 weapons that will still get through and wipe them out. Or just straight up mortal wounds. This just makes us harder to kill be massed low value shooting, which was never a problem we had.

I may be a pessimist but I don't expect to start seeing 3x5 Shield Guardians in every list. Or Even 3x3. They don't really do anything other than sit in one place and not die. And 9th is about mobility and objectives.

just my two cents.

It's definitely a buff.

Not a huge one, but definitely a buff. It's a 'nice to have' as a result of the marine changes

And hopefully soon enough we're going to be getting a pretty major boost to our weapons and maybe possibly our wounds as well.

Guys, I presumably already know the answer, which is - well, tough luck.
I just lost 2 games, one 100 VP to 0 and the other getting tabled T1. Supremely frustrating.

But I'd like some advice on how to deal with harlequins. Its just 500 pts in a crusade narrative setting, but I dont see this changing at like 1000 pts or above...
The problem is Shadowseers in transports.
The transport can move 22", disembark and has like a 30" movement range T1.
Afterwards he just sits there, and if the dice are nice, casts 3 psychic powers dealing around 10 MW in 1 turn. Trying to deny a 11 pt smite is pointless (which also happened twice).
Then a few Fusion pistols afterwards and you have lost 2 thirds of your army to a single model.

Feels like there's literally nothing I can do...

How exactly is a Shadowseer killing multiple models with a Pistol 1 weapon?

Not the pistol, but psychic powers. Smite, Mirror of Minds, Shards of Light. You cannot hide with that movement range, the troupe in the transport add a few fusion pistols and pop go the custodes. It is very, very frustrating to be pasted so thoroughly not once, but twice.

But I see, I said to a single model - well technically the fusions wipe off the scraps.

Perhaps it would be useful if you detail the lists and tone down the exaggerations so everyone can assist you to analyse what happened.

A full boat of 5 fusions should only kill one custodian on average. And thats before you consider storm shields or -1 vexillas etc. All I can guess from what you've described is that you had 2 games full of absolutely terrible luck. The chances of a properly built Custodes army being tabled turn 1 are astronomically low, even by Harlequins.

Spartacus wrote:
All I can guess from what you've described is that you had 2 games full of absolutely terrible luck.

Effectively this. A super-smite is a 6/36 chance. Each of the other powers you've described are 21/36 casts (notwithstanding how theyve got a 3rd power unless they've been seriously burning through games), one of which does d3 mortals, the other that is hilariously convoluted to calculate but has a significant chance of doing nothing. If they were truly putting out 10+ mortals per casting phase, it was an exceedingly rare set of results.

Those weren't actually exaggerations... this is what happened.
I had my shield-captain in the back with 3 Sagittarum Guard. The allarus in deepstrike so I can catch something and not play ring around the rosey.

I gave him T1, knowing that I would basically do nothing if I ho go first. Shadowseer drove up in a transport, cast a 10 power smite on the sag guard - 3 MW, fnp didn't catch one. Mirror of mind went off, failed the deny, captain lost 4MW. Again no Fnp took. Fusions took another Guard with 3D. I killed the shadowseer in assault and a few troupes. Got mobbed up in his turn, allarus came in, failed the charge, failed the re roll and I lost 100 - 0.

Second game was similar. I don't recall the extreme details...11 power smite, 11 power shards of light, hallucinogens launcher caused a further d3 wounds. Then the 5 fusions and other shooting did the rest before the allarus could come in.

So on avg I suffered like 10 mw on avg in 1 turn with 15 on the table.

Afaik a Shadowseer has smite and 2x phantasmancy, no?

Oin the end, I got boned HARD by dice. Twice. How refreshing...

 Thairne wrote:

Afaik a Shadowseer has smite and 2x phantasmancy, no?

Shadowseers are Cast 2 / Deny 1 characters. They may know three powers at baseline, but they are unable to cast them all in one go.

Well that is good to know and an honedt mistake in his part. So you helped a great deal already!

never had the hallucegin grenade launcher work on me ever.........

 Thairne wrote:
Well that is good to know and an honedt mistake in his part. So you helped a great deal already!

Just checking but are you aware of the new rules for Custodes which were released in the War of the Spider book?

If not there are some stratagems in there which could certainly help survive the blow from enemy psykers. Custodes get a stratagem which allows you to deny any psychic power on a roll of 4+ if they are targeted. And if you take a unit of Sisters of silence, they get another similar one which works on a 3+.

Not to mention all of the other great options from shield hosts and the new captain-commander system.

Also did you use the Teleport homer strat when your Allarus teleported in? I'd highly recommend getting a Vexilua Praetor and doing that so your expensive unit doesn't sit around doing nothing for too long.

Well so that "hope" tanked pretty quick.
Vessel of Fate, a Stratagem, allows the Shadowseer to cast another psychic power. So no mistake.

I was faintly aware but some fethup with my dropbox didnt allow me to access the ebook from my mobile device and since this was my first game against anything with psykers I remembered the strat, but thought I have to do a "real" deny the witch. And against a 10+ roll that would've been pretty rare. A 4+ would have been more useable indeed...
Didnt know a SoS unit unlocks another stratagem... That might taking one pretty useful alone for that.

I couldnt fit a vexila in at 500 pts, but I definately have 2 already sitting around, painted, one as an allarus and a standard praetor for that.

So, not going to lie, but right now the 500 pt game is hard to play for us, especially against psyker heavy forces. But honestly, in a 500pt game, if you are losing "half your force" to smites and stuff turn 1, you are not playing your new stratgems. Like others have said, we can flat out deny on a 4+ now, so don't save your CP for some elusive trick on turn 3, just survive turn 1.

Also, Elday (of any variety) are one of our worst match-ups. Don't expect a lot of fun from that game.

Yeah the unavailabilty of stratagems screwed me over hard in addition to the dice.

I did some mathhammer and it turns out, if I use a Culexus at 750pts, I can reduce his chance to get off a critical power to 14% using the 4+, like a 11 power smite, with the other strat "saved" for a possible low roll for a Deny the Witch test.

That at least would have given me a fighting chance, but there still was no way of me winning with the mobility the transports gave him to control objectives. Any objective based mission feels like an autoloss, especially at that point level.
I also agree with the worst matchup - but luckily the other players are SoB and SW, which runs way better in my favor.

 Thairne wrote:
Well so that "hope" tanked pretty quick.
Vessel of Fate, a Stratagem, allows the Shadowseer to cast another psychic power. So no mistake.

I was faintly aware but some fethup with my dropbox didnt allow me to access the ebook from my mobile device and since this was my first game against anything with psykers I remembered the strat, but thought I have to do a "real" deny the witch. And against a 10+ roll that would've been pretty rare. A 4+ would have been more useable indeed...
Didnt know a SoS unit unlocks another stratagem... That might taking one pretty useful alone for that.

I couldnt fit a vexila in at 500 pts, but I definately have 2 already sitting around, painted, one as an allarus and a standard praetor for that.

In my opinion, opponents can see the Teleport Homer strat coming from a mile away and play around it so it doesn't deserve the hype it gets on this board. If you try it, let us know (especially let us know if your opponent knows about the stratagem and what it can do beforehand).

You can do the 4+ deny strat after trying to deny the witch (or you can choose not to deny the witch and still use the 4+ strat, the point is that you get to see the result, if any, before deciding whether to use the 4+ strat). Knowing odds of beating a psyker power are important in deciding whether you should deny or not. In general, you have a less than 50% chance of denying anything that rolled a 7+.

There is a warlord trait to deny with a +1 as well. If you face psyker heavy armies a lot it may be worth it.

Sisters can help with Eldar but they may not be too useful against most other armies (maybe daemons?). If you're making a TAC list be careful.

At 500 points, an 'optimal' TAC probably looks something like:

HQ: Shield-Captain on Jetbike (Hurricane Bolter, you want lots of Hurricane Bolters if possible when fighting Harlies cause they're all invulns/1W).
Troop: 3x Sword+Board or Saggitarum (depends if you want to be hard to move off an objective or, again, lots of bolter fire).
Troop: 3x Sword+Board or Saggitarum again.

If you want to run your terminators though, the Jetbike Captain needs to turn into an Allarus and then you should be able to squeeze them in (as you probably know).

If you're running Allarus and MW are giving you a problem, consider starting them on the board and using Unleash the Lions. Then the MW can't spill over from one model to another.

Just for this 500 point Harlie scenario, consider using Valerian and Aleya as your HQ. Aleya gives you access to the Sisters strats without taking any other Sisters (and is a mini-Culexus Assassin herself). Valerian isn't great but he'll be functional at that level.

That is some very good advice and a lot food for thought.

As I mentioned I run in a Crusade context and currently run
Shield Captain with Veiled Blade, Stormshield
3xSagittarum Guard
3xAllarus /w Castellan Axes

That list I deprived from a "target" list I had in mind when I started Custodes just a few weeks ago
Said Shield-Captain (ofc without the veiled blade)
Shield-Captain in Allarus TA
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3x3 Sagittarum Guard
5x Allarus /w Castellan Axes
5x Vertus Praetors
1x Telemon Dreadnought with Arachnus Stormcannons

I then dumped it down to a "core" at 500 pts from which I want to build up.
So I have the models available (though not yet painted which would give me all matters of sarcastic comments if I fielded those) but I can do a second Sagittarum quickly, add them to the Order of Battle and run a more troop heavy list like you proposed. I think I have enough Supply Limit left to add those in at least.

So at 500 points, you may just want to go ham with full bikes and a Telemon. Also, why take a SC with a shield?

 Thairne wrote:
That is some very good advice and a lot food for thought.

As I mentioned I run in a Crusade context and currently run
Shield Captain with Veiled Blade, Stormshield
3xSagittarum Guard
3xAllarus /w Castellan Axes

That list I deprived from a "target" list I had in mind when I started Custodes just a few weeks ago
Said Shield-Captain (ofc without the veiled blade)
Shield-Captain in Allarus TA
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3x3 Sagittarum Guard
5x Allarus /w Castellan Axes
5x Vertus Praetors
1x Telemon Dreadnought with Arachnus Stormcannons

I then dumped it down to a "core" at 500 pts from which I want to build up.
So I have the models available (though not yet painted which would give me all matters of sarcastic comments if I fielded those) but I can do a second Sagittarum quickly, add them to the Order of Battle and run a more troop heavy list like you proposed. I think I have enough Supply Limit left to add those in at least.

Huh, I'm not as familiar with Crusade rules (I'm almost exclusively a tournament player). Let me say this before you upend the house; you *can* win with what you've got. Nothing says you need a bleeding edge optimal list (especially since your opponent doesn't have one either from the sounds of it). 'Optimal' can be relative too as I'm mostly building for scoring GT 2020 secondaries.

*In the current tournament meta* your eventual list is solid. The Telemon might want to switch to Illiastus Accelerators because there is a focus on heavy-infantry over vehicles, but a Crusade meta may be different. 5x Allarus can use both Superior Fire Patterns and their character targeting stratagem do an inordinate amount of assassination at close range. Note that Stooping Dive makes it so the enemy *can't fight the Jetbikes back* if it charged. So they can counter-charge and remain punch free (9th has odd wording in the 'Select Targets' section that makes this possible).

If I were to take your current list and fight that Eldar player, I would switch to the warlord trait for deny the witch (if I am allowed to do pre-game selection of WT like in 8th, tournament 9th you can't anymore). If I can't switch it, Superior Creation is probably the better trait for the improved FnP which helps with MW. Use my deny the witch strat whenever it's a 6 or less and dealing MW to me. Use the 4+ strat when it's 7 or over (like when he rolls 11+ to Smite). Probably run myself as Shadowkeepers or Solar Watch (start the Allarus on the board if Solar Watch). You can then Move 7", Advance and fire the Rapid Fire portion of the axes at -1 to Hit. May get some chip damage through.

For positioning, the goal is to keep the Smite on the Sag guard so they want to be closest. If your opponent is using transports (tournament Harlies usually don't I believe) you can use Salvo Launchers instead of Hurricane Bolters on Jetbikes (once you have them). Should blow them out of the water.

An important distinction for your list to keep in mind is you don't want an over-redundancy in roles. If the Telemon is going anti-heavy infantry (Illiastus) you can put Salvo Launchers on the Jetbikes to help with armor. If the Telemon is going anti-armor (Arachnus) then use Hurricane Bolters to take out infantry. Once you move fast, however, you can use melee to bring down armor and switch to double anti-infantry to blast open pathways to get to it (Illiastus+Hurricane Bolter).

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So at 500 points, you may just want to go ham with full bikes and a Telemon. Also, why take a SC with a shield?

On a non-crusade level, I figured with just 3 man Sagittarum to "protect" him, the planned Allarus and Dawneagle being offensively minded I was pretty sure he would be targeted early and often. So I made him very defensive to move around with a Sagittarum "castle" whereas the most use for him would be the rerolling aura for those all around and heroicly intervene.

On a narrative scale, this makes him the battle field commander which adds 2 CP (-2 if slain) and the Strategic Mastermind Commander trait (with the Superior Creation WLT). I have enough kit left to build a different loadout later on.
Those things are locked on the first time you basically play the unit and cannot be changed.

The Telemon is a bit of a struggle for me to fit in so far tbh, I currently only have him planned in 1500 pts upwards - running him with Illiastus however makes him just that bit cheaper that I need to make him viable.

Audustum wrote:

Very sound advice, tyvm! I didnt even consider that the jetbikes were basically immune - but it makes sense!
Crusade differs from tournament in some major ways.. firstly, you cannot switch around units at will. They stay as they are, with wargear and especially unit size. You can switch wargear through some other points ressource, but that cuts into some other benefits you can get.
The same ressource can be used to purchase WLT, Relics and Commander Traits for EVERY character you run without a cost of CP, so you can have a defensive Shield-Captain in the backline, a all-seeing Annihilator/unstoppable destroyer Allarus Captain and a Swift as the Eagle Dawneagle Captain with Radiant Mantle. And then add some other inane stuff to it like +1" for charge and advance moves for the Allarus.

I dont HAVE to uppend the house as you say, but since those all are units I need to get done and on the board for the eventual 2k finale and inbetween it really is not much of a bother. It basically just switched around what I need to paint next My original plan was to bring the Allarus up to 5 man at 750 and those are close to done and painted, so getting Sag Guard instead is not a major shakearound for the next game, which wont be earlier then next week. I did however notice that I need a bit more "dakka" and speed

In my second game, I learned fast and placed the Sag Guard closer to the enemy. They did intercept the smite, but, well, didn't end helping since I didn't know about the stratagems basically. Since then I cheated a bit and added the stratagems to Battlescribe so I have datacards in one hand and the other strats on my printout
I'll get the Illiastus (and some fists too) and add them to may painting backlog soon

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

Does this mean bikes and dreadnoughts no longer get re-rolls?

Given that bikes are explicitly included in the Custodian ObSec, I really dont think they're going to be excluded from Custodian auras.

Well considering that we wont be effected by that change at all, until our new codex drops sometime at the middle or end of next year.........


I think we are gonna be fine for a while.


The CORE changes dont happen till you get your new dex.

I would expect our Captains to stop giving themselves re-rolls, however, just like the SM ones.

Even then I am willing to bet that bikes are core for Custodes, as they are explicitly mentioned for SMs. I bet this is more for things like Telemons, or the 3 Tanks and Trajann basecamp that was super prevelent in 8th. Also a issue where a HW would sit in the back and just give auras to a death ball of Heavy Artillery like Whirlwinds. I don't see this being a massive issue in 9th. This is a good change.