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Tiberias wrote:
Permanent emperors auspice is too strong. Preventing all rerolls is an extremely powerful effect, even more powerful than permanent transhuman.
I would be ok with "half" of emperors auspice as a permanent buff for our guys. Preventing either rerolls to hit or to wound.

I stand by my suggestion that our custodian guard with shield should prevent enemy rerolls to hit (both shooting and melee) , and our guardian spears should give -1 to wound, but only in melee.
This way, mixing units with shield and spear would actually be an option since -1 to wound is such a powerful effect, hence why I would only apply it in melee.

Cannot reroll wounds then, even stealing the ability name from arcane genetic alchemy.

Would allow Custodian-Pattern Storm Shields (or some equally copyrightable name) to then convey a -1 to hit possibly?

 IHateNids wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Permanent emperors auspice is too strong. Preventing all rerolls is an extremely powerful effect, even more powerful than permanent transhuman.
I would be ok with "half" of emperors auspice as a permanent buff for our guys. Preventing either rerolls to hit or to wound.

I stand by my suggestion that our custodian guard with shield should prevent enemy rerolls to hit (both shooting and melee) , and our guardian spears should give -1 to wound, but only in melee.
This way, mixing units with shield and spear would actually be an option since -1 to wound is such a powerful effect, hence why I would only apply it in melee.

Cannot reroll wounds then, even stealing the ability name from arcane genetic alchemy.

Would allow Custodian-Pattern Storm Shields (or some equally copyrightable name) to then convey a -1 to hit possibly?

Sure, but - 1 to hit is basically cosmetic nowadays, it doesn't do anything, especially in melee where everyone and their mother gets +1 to hit somehow. Also with the stupid cap they implemented, it's even less valuable.

So I can see them doing that, giving the the shields a -1 to hit ability like the galatus dreadnought has, but I'd be sad seeing it because it's really weak.

Edit: so this is just my opinion and I don't claim I know best about this stuff, but I think we are all in agreement that custodes should be one of the toughest armies point for point. So how can we achieve that? Imo there is a clear hierarchy of defensive buffs/abilities a unit can have:

1. Inhibiting rerolls to wound/hit
2. - 1 to wound
3. Permanent transhuman/ - 1 dmg
4. -1 enemy weapon strength
5. -1 to hit

Bearing that in mind and considering that on a D6 system with stats ranging from 1-10, there is not much you can improve on our profiles except wounds, which is also desperately needed.
So imo we need at least one of the top 3 defensive buffs baked into our units, plus one additional wound on all our infantry/bikes.

That honestly wouldn't be crazy in any way shape or form considering the current codex creep and would bring our guys up to shape. I would even give these buffs to our guys if we don't lose the 3+ invuln on the shields.

I think in 30k the shields allow invulnerable re-rolls (at least something Custodes have does). That is another option (though won't help MW).

I feel like the goal posts of what we are weak against keeps shifting. And that is because with every new codex in 9th, we have a load of new weaknesses. Druk are OP, and will get nerfed back down. Maybe not as soon as wished, but they will not remain at their current level. We need to look past them. Our biggest threats are still hordes and psykers right? War of the Spider really helped us on the Psyker defense, but we still need more attacks against hordes.

I have been tinkering with an idea from DND on a magic sword I gave to one of my players recently. "Short sword of godlin slaying" If you are facing more than 2 creatures within 5 feet, you gain 2+x extra attacks. So 5 goblins, 3 extra attacks.

TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?

Audustum wrote:
I think in 30k the shields allow invulnerable re-rolls (at least something Custodes have does). That is another option (though won't help MW).

Given how strong and annoying the shield captain with a 3++ invul and just one re-roll per turn is, I doubt anyone would be happy with all our shields getting re-rollable 3++ invul saves. Also, a re-rollable 3++ is better than a 2+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?

Do people struggle with hordes that much? Between 36 bolter shots from bikes, 15 shots of varying profile from terminators and telemons putting out 22 shots from cannons and rockets, we've got a fair amount to deal with that. Honestly I find myself struggling more against vehicles than hordes.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I think in 30k the shields allow invulnerable re-rolls (at least something Custodes have does). That is another option (though won't help MW).

Given how strong and annoying the shield captain with a 3++ invul and just one re-roll per turn is, I doubt anyone would be happy with all our shields getting re-rollable 3++ invul saves. Also, a re-rollable 3++ is better than a 2+ save.

I think it's just re-roll 1's in 30k, but yes, would likely cause some consternation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
TLDR: Give us blast rules for melee. Just us. Call it perseverence through overwhelming odds. Gain attacks equal the the ammount of models in base contact with the attacking model?
Do people struggle with hordes that much? Between 36 bolter shots from bikes, 15 shots of varying profile from terminators and telemons putting out 22 shots from cannons and rockets, we've got a fair amount to deal with that. Honestly I find myself struggling more against vehicles than hordes.

Custodes just need more attacks period, it's not even about hordes per se. It's a bit of a joke how left behind they've been by the inflation in the attack stat we've seen over the course of 8th and now 9th edition.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Custodes just need more attacks period, it's not even about hordes per se. It's a bit of a joke how left behind they've been by the inflation in the attack stat we've seen over the course of 8th and now 9th edition.

Base guard to 4 base, elites (wardens/termies/bikes) to 5 base, and shield captains to 6.

Plus sweep attack profiles on spears and/or axes (maybe make axes Sx2, and spears have a sweep profile if you wanted to differentiate them?) , and that'd probably get to where it needs to go.

I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.

Bikes are obviously not as good as they were in 8th. But hurricane bolters and salvo launchers (with the archeotech ammunition strat) are still very valuable.
Salvo launchers with the strat is imo one of the most reliable anti tank we have right now and hurricane bolters can do wonders against the new dark eldar...if you manage to pop their transports first. Bikes are far from being as bad as wardens.

Bikes need one more wound, one more attack and the lances should do more dmg on the charge in addition to rerolling wounds, then I think they'd be really solid again.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am not joking when I say I am the only Custodes player I know that runs bikes. Everyone just runs some form of Terminator/Shields/Trajaan, Telemons. Bikes are about equal to Wardens now, and that's hilarious.

Bikes are obviously not as good as they were in 8th. But hurricane bolters and salvo launchers (with the archeotech ammunition strat) are still very valuable.
Salvo launchers with the strat is imo one of the most reliable anti tank we have right now and hurricane bolters can do wonders against the new dark eldar...if you manage to pop their transports first. Bikes are far from being as bad as wardens.

Bikes need one more wound, one more attack and the lances should do more dmg on the charge in addition to rerolling wounds, then I think they'd be really solid again.

Bikes have a few other things too:

1. If you Stooping Dive a charger the charger CANNOT swing at you, at all, even if you are forced to fight last (hi, Drukhari).

2. Jetbikes have comparable travel distance to DEldar and can this play the positioning game against them (14" Fly vs. 8"+1D6" (Wyches in this case)).

3. Solar Watch Jetbikes are incredible shooting platforms with a 21" Move+Advance while still firing Hurricane Bolters.

4. Even Hurricanes aren't too bad on Raiders. Takes 5 with re-roll 1's to Hit in Rapid Fire range or 10 outside of it. If you're in Rapid range you can then charge the juicy insides.

Honestly asking? How many times have you seen bike on tables in the last few months? I am not saying they are bad, I do think they are in need of a wound buff, but otherwise they do their work and don't need much support. I do wish our missiles were stronger, but they are not dedicated anti-T8.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly asking? How many times have you seen bike on tables in the last few months? I am not saying they are bad, I do think they are in need of a wound buff, but otherwise they do their work and don't need much support. I do wish our missiles were stronger, but they are not dedicated anti-T8.

Well I always run bikes cause zoomy units are always fun.

From my experience, I don't think bikes need any boosts to damage since they always do work for me if they're still alive, the only problem is the "if" part. With the 4++ invulnerable, they're easily the weakest thing any Custodes player will be fielding: our troops get a 3++ invul, our terminators are safely tucked away in deepstrike, our characters get look out sir and our dreadnoughts get T7/8 and a -1 to damage. When compared to other Custodes stuff, they are the glass cannons of the codex. I think either a 3++ jink save for 2CP and/or 5W so they don't get countered so hard by 2 and d3 damage weapons would be nice.

The melta missiles could maybe do with a change since, against a T5/6/7 vehicle with a 3+/5++ save, the melta only does an average of 0.7 more wounds. Maybe d3 shots? Or make it Rapid Fire 1? Then make the Flakkburst 2d3 shots but keep the -1 to hit vs non-fly units since it already gets the blast rule.

What about a stratagem "Full Payload" where you fire all the missiles in the machine, for flat Heavy 6, Frag (s7) profile. Or flat Heavy 3 Krak (S8)Profile.

Not a big fan of stratagems to make bad units good myself.

At the very, very minimum, the melta profile needs to just be a multi-melta - 2 shots, +2 damage w/in half range. Maybe then just get rid of the flakk profile entirely honestly, and then make the hurricane bolter some WordWord (TM) Bolter that's just flat assault 12, AP 1. Or else just collapse the two weapons into one weapon that can be shot either as the MM or as the 12 shot assault bolter, and just give them some actual flexibility instead of having to choose one or the other.

The bikes are just terrible right now, they need dramatic surgery to be playable, and I don't think just dropping points on them is the way to do it.

You honestly think our most well rounded unit is terrible?

Granted, they aren't flying Telemons, but with their rules, they are easily top 5 in our entire codex.

Dawneagle jetbikes are without a doubt the best single unit in the game if you were to take all stratagems and tactics out of the game.

A unit of 10 is absolutely devestating 1 on 1 vs anything else.

However, point for point they are too squishy in today's meta vs all the newly buffed 9th edition codex's.

If they actually got to use their 2+ save, they would be fine, but they dont. There isnt an army in the game that doesnt have access to some ranged weaponry that either has AP-2 and/or damage 2/4 for 10-20pts.

When an army can spam 20pt weapons that can take out an 85pt model in a single shot half the time, said models arent gonna have a good time.

Custodes are currently pointed with the assumption that it would take an entire army shooting at a 450-700pt to kill it in a turn. The reality is however, it only takes about half that to kill them.

Less actually.
Just considering like the previewed Cognis weapons.
It takes 2 autocannon balistarii for 130 pts with RR1 to kill one bike on avg.

Even IF bikes get another wound on top, their defense is already the best in the game, and still dies horribly for the cost. I don't know if you can realistically improve on a 2+4++6+++, 4 wounds, but I do like the "Jink" idea of -1 to hit for 2 CP per unit. Even that wouldn't really do much. Shooting is just too good in this edition. You are pretty much rolling 50/50 on whether to die or live.

Thats the underlying issue.
Too much things force a 4++ and have multidamage now.
The only thing that can save you is that coin flip.
All other defenses are, well not exactly meaningless, but T6 means nothing in most cases. 4W is equivalent to 2W or 3W very often.
When was the last time you could actually use the 2+ you paid for and not the 4++ (if not using Adamantium and Auramite or a 3++ stormshield)?
Because I cant recall...

I agree with everything that has been said about shooting being too cost efficient and deadly, especially against custodes. The question is, how can GW fix that?

I fully agree with Fezzik that you can't improve our statline anymore, save for wounds and attacks and those will likely get a small bump in our new codex anyway.
So what is there left to buff? Nothing save for an extra layer of rules that provide protection of some sort. No rerolls, reducing AP, -1 to wound...I don't know, maybe we get a reverse blood angel "chapter tactic": everything that tries to wound us, is - 1 to wound or something.

If we are supposed to be hyper elite mini-god emperors, make us those. Give bikes 7Ws. Give infantry 5 per model. Dress right dress for HQs.

-1 to wound across the army still wouldn't address the fact that the bikes cost too much relative to infantry or dreads.

The basic problem is they're just generically solid at everything, without being good at any one thing...and so you pay 85 points a model for stuff that doesn't have anywhere close to 85 points per model worth of any one thing. Their defense is crap compared to their points cost; their melee is junk compared to what you can get for 85 points elsewhere, their shooting is even more crap than that, etc etc.

Units that are just strong all-rounders typically only work well in 40k if they're cheap, and bikes are the opposite of cheap. So you're tying up a huge proportion of your points into a unit that doesn't actually excel at anything. And in 9th, you're doing it in a game with a minimum of 4 objectives, and often 6, that you need to split your forces across, so that becomes an even bigger ask.

It's hard to really know what they can do with them, short of a rewrite that learns into *something* instead of being such an all-rounder. Looking at the rest of the army, I'd be inclined to lean into the shooting, since that's what doesn't really exist elsewhere.

I'd also probably let them combat squad into individual bikes at the start of the game for free, so you'd have the option of using them for engage and to zip around delivering ob-sec to wherever you need it without being hampered by having to use the whole unit. It fits the lore, and it allows custodes a way to, if not exactly play MSU, at least get a bunch more moderately costed units on the table.

yukishiro1 wrote:
-1 to wound across the army still wouldn't address the fact that the bikes cost too much relative to infantry or dreads.

The basic problem is they're just generically solid at everything, without being good at any one thing...and so you pay 85 points a model for stuff that doesn't have anywhere close to 85 points per model worth of any one thing. Their defense is crap compared to their points cost; their melee is junk compared to what you can get for 85 points elsewhere, their shooting is even more crap than that, etc etc.

Units that are just strong all-rounders typically only work well in 40k if they're cheap, and bikes are the opposite of cheap. So you're tying up a huge proportion of your points into a unit that doesn't actually excel at anything. And in 9th, you're doing it in a game with a minimum of 4 objectives, and often 6, that you need to split your forces across, so that becomes an even bigger ask.

It's hard to really know what they can do with them, short of a rewrite that learns into *something* instead of being such an all-rounder. Looking at the rest of the army, I'd be inclined to lean into the shooting, since that's what doesn't really exist elsewhere.

I'd also probably let them combat squad into individual bikes at the start of the game for free, so you'd have the option of using them for engage and to zip around delivering ob-sec to wherever you need it without being hampered by having to use the whole unit. It fits the lore, and it allows custodes a way to, if not exactly play MSU, at least get a bunch more moderately costed units on the table.

I agree with your premise, but if bikes are too expensive and offer too little for their cost, I think GW can either make them cheaper and not improve them a lot, same with our infantry. Or they give them appropriate buffs to make them survivable and worth their premium cost. Now, I believe custodes should be written in a way that they are truly worth their premium cost, after all we are supposed to be THE elite faction.

So I propose a thought experiment: what buffs would bikes need to be actually survivable and worth their cost in the current meta of codex creep and extreme, cost efficient lethality in shooting (and melee for that matter)?
Do they need 7wounds like Fezzik suggests? Do they need -1 to wound, plus you can't reroll hits against them..... -1 dmg like death guard? I am not saying any of those are inherently unreasonable, I'm genuinely curious what people think it would take to make premium priced units like bikes, that actually have a stellar staline, appropriately surviable in 9th.

just to add to the discussion, GW already dropped the points cost by 10PPM earlier this year, so they obviously agree that they were over costed before.

as a reference, the Multi melta land speeder costs 70pts, and has 6wounds, T6 and a 3+ save, no invul. I suppose the question is what does a jetbike have that justifes that 15 points extra but 2 less wounds?

I asked for -1 ap on hurricane bolters and everyone lost their minds.

Right now I am honestly saying make bikes 7/7, and their lances stay +1.

My biggest concern is that we were made at the start of 8th, which was a radically different game dev mindset than the one in 9th, and that is clear to anyone. In order to justify our cost now, in 9th, we need to be much better. I'd say bikes are up to 7/7, and our spears need to be flat 3, axes 4, swords 2. Terminators need to be 6/6.

I am just wishlisting now.

I want to make an all bikes list competetive, but there is no way in 9th.

I don't think buffing bike defense is the way to go, Custodes already have plenty of defensive units that are going to do that better - and if you make bikes better at that than the other options, then people will stop taking the other stuff. Look at Wardens - this is a classic example of a unit that doesn't see play because it has no role in the army that isn't done by something else better.

They need to find a niche for bikes that's different than just "generically good at everything at a premium price point." Letting them combat squad for free to become mobile one-model units gives them that, buffing their shooting would give them that, or you could lean into the mobility by giving them some movement tricks like being able to jump out of combat after fighting like the seer council...but they need something to be their specialty that isn't just "what the rest of the army can do, but more."

By making them 7/7 do you mean 7 toughness and 7 wounds?
If that is what you mean, I can see them getting more wounds, but I'd be very, very surprised by GW bumping the toughness of our bikes and termis, I can't picture that happening, ever.

This is one of the problems of the stat system in 40k. I've mentioned this a lot of times, but you can't endlessly inflate stats like toughness forever, especially when said stat never ever exceeds T8, even on titans (for whatever reason?). It makes no sense and it doesn't work in the long run. So our bikes becoming the same toughness as our smaller dreadnoughts I just can't see happening.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think buffing bike defense is the way to go, Custodes already have plenty of defensive units that are going to do that better - and if you make bikes better at that than the other options, then people will stop taking the other stuff. Look at Wardens - this is a classic example of a unit that doesn't see play because it has no role in the army that isn't done by something else better.

They need to find a niche for bikes that's different than just "generically good at everything at a premium price point." Letting them combat squad for free to become mobile one-model units gives them that, buffing their shooting would give them that, or you could lean into the mobility by giving them some movement tricks like being able to jump out of combat after fighting like the seer council...but they need something to be their specialty that isn't just "what the rest of the army can do, but more."

I get your point, but my point was not to just buff the bikes defensive, all our guys need that, I just picked them as an example.

I think your ideas are great, but it wouldn't change that bikes still die too easy and it basically always comes down to a 50% invuln, which isn't enough with the cost efficient super deadly shooting in the new codex creep.

So here's a direct comparison to another really tough unit atm: Deathwing Knights.

For 255pts you get 3 bikes while for 240pts you get 5 knights plus the watcher in the dark.

Movement: Bikes easily win here by almost a factor of 3.

WS/BS: Again, bikes win here by a small amount.

S: Bikes have the better base strength but Knights are S6 (for their sergeant) and S8 for the rest of the squad in cc, so Knights win.

T: Bikes have better toughness but it only really matters against small arms fire that's not gonna hurt them anyway since Knights can only be wounded on a 4+, Knights win here.

W: Due to the prevalence of 2D weapons, the Bike's 4W is basically the same as the Knights 3 wounds, the Bikes still win here but only in a few cases.

A: Knights get 2 attacks each but that goes to 3 when they charge or are charged so Bikes only edge them by 1 attack.

Ld: Both units essentially leadership 9 except Knights also ignore all modifiers to combat attrition tests, so they win.

Sv: Both get 2+/4++ saves but knights get to ignore AP-1 and AP-2 gives them a 3+ save, making knights better.

Shooting output: Bikes win since Knights don't have any shooting

Melee output: A single Bike gets 4x S6 AP-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling to wound on the charge, two knights (about equivalent amount of points) gets 6x S8 AP-2 (-3 if in assault doctrine) D3 attacks hitting on 3s on the charge.
Against T7 3+ targets: a Bike does 3 wounds, 2 knights do 6-7 wounds
Against T8 4++ targets: a Bike does almost 2 wounds, 2 knights do 3 wounds
Against T4 3+ targets: a Bike does 5 wounds, 2 knights do 8 wounds (if 2 wound target it's 5 dead for both)
Against T3 4+ targets: a Bike does 6-7 wounds, 2 knights do 10 wounds (if 1 wound target it's 3 dead for both)
For every target, knights are better (not an extensive list of course).

Defense: A single Bike is a T6 4W target with a 2+/4++, 2 knights are T4 3W (6W total) target with a 1+/4++ and can't be wounded on anything less than a 4+. From what I can guess, Bikes would only be better if being shot at by a S5 AP0 D3 weapon which I don't believe excists.

So Bikes only best Deathwing knights in two areas: mobility and shooting, and even then Deathwing Knights get deepstrike for free so the movement problem isn't that big.