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I like it.

I would like it alot more with 8 attacks as I feel that'd make his attacking profile a little less lacklustre, but other than that I like it.

100 points would be nice.

He's a neat little swiss army knife. But it's really going to come down to points and stats. Normal custodes state line with 6 wounds at 100 points seems viable but hardly auto include. For 120 you'd probably not see him much at all.

Six attacks against a vehicle, half will auto wound and the other 2 hits will cause on average 4/3 wounds for a total of 7 1/3 wounds. A sister with a multi melta, by comparison, will do just under 5 wounds, and you can buy at least 3 for the cost...
12 attacks against guardsmen with the mulch profile kills roughly 7 guardsmen...
The anti character one is a little harder to judge but will likely do the deed against anything that isn't a dedicated CC beast with a solid invul save.

And yeah leadership 11 seems odd, unless he is an HQ and can take a WL trait that shares his leadership. Still probably won't be the best choice. I'm thinking a swing and a miss here.

 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

Also, agreed, LD 11 is pointless on a single model unit. Also, when have Custodians ever failed moral saves?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/01/fight-for-the-fate-of-terra-with-the-two-incredibly-powerful-new-heroes-in-shadow-throne/

They've given the majority of the rules reveals for the Blade Champion in the latest Warcom article.

I feel like while he's versatile and has decent defensive stats (basically transhuman against hits rather than wound rolls), it's going to largely depend on his overall cost since his damage output is decent but not at a level where I think you'd take him since he's not mobile enough to be a consistent character or monster/vehicle hunter due being on foot and having to deal with all the -1D abilities flying about nowadays (outside of spending CP to deep strike him).

Also, really weird how they try making Ld11 for him to be a selling point somehow.

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

Also, agreed, LD 11 is pointless on a single model unit. Also, when have Custodians ever failed moral saves?

It's also very good against things like hive tyrants, tank commanders or big ork beastbosses.
Full rerolls wounds plus flat 3 dmg is quite nice to have against these things.
Also consider that he likely can get a warlord trait and relics. If the shadowkeepers warlord trait stays the same (-1 on all saves even invuln) then the new blade champion would become beyond terrifying for almost all characters.
Having 11 leadership is mostly a gimmick, but it's nice against certain psychic powers and weapons that roll against your Ld.

So given the cost of most Custodes Characters, and given he seems like a Character killer, would 150-175 be too high? Given his weapon profiles, damage and WL trait abilities, he seems like he would need to do some serious work. I mean unless this guy gets a bonkers stat line, M7 W7 A5, he's gonna have to do some work. And if he does get that sort of line, he may end up costing more than Trajann.

Would this guy be better than Trajann as the default character hunter? Would he be better than Terminators?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So given the cost of most Custodes Characters, and given he seems like a Character killer, would 150-175 be too high? Given his weapon profiles, damage and WL trait abilities, he seems like he would need to do some serious work. I mean unless this guy gets a bonkers stat line, M7 W7 A5, he's gonna have to do some work. And if he does get that sort of line, he may end up costing more than Trajann.

Would this guy be better than Trajann as the default character hunter? Would he be better than Terminators?

150-175 would be too high imo. He has 6 attacks base as per the warhammer community article, which is really quite good actually.

Will he be better than Trajann? As a character hunter....maybe, but we know absolutely nothing about Trajann as of now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

But we're off to a good start I think. I really like the blade champion. A small detail that's also really nice is his 6" heroic intervention and the fact that he always fights first.

150-175 is way too high, he's a cool character but I can't see why you'd ever take him over a bike captain, especially if our bike captains get a +1A/W, flat 2D, etc. He's a cool character but unless captains get a big nerf then it'll always be competing against one of the strongest characters in the game.

Well, if this guy has no DS inbuilt, and it costs 1CP to DS him, then he won't even start earning points back until turn 2, by which point his hunting options will be somewhat limited. This of course under the presumption that FGLTC stays the same.

Point being, a 165pt Bike Captain can start earning points turn 1, so can Trajann. I honestly don't see how a character with zero shooting,(Not confirmed yet?) can even start being effective until turn 2.

If he is a designed Character killer, he needs some form of baked in method of getting across the board quickly turn 1. That doesn't involve a 300point flyer.

Seems like a really fun character addition for the Custodes, I really enjoy the Consummate Swordsman ability and while I enjoy my captain on a Dawneagle Jetbike it will be nice to run him for a different change of pace, especially when facing Drazhar.

Honestly asking, we agree that this is a character killing unit right? What type of units would you try to throw it at? It can't take down DPs, or heavy T8 Characters, so like T4 characters? Librarians?

What is this unit's preferred target?

Also, has it been confirmed that it has no ranged weapon? I can't see any notes about one, or that it has one on it's pictures?

Yeah I don't think they can take away our 4++ and just give us one extra wound. We'd need some ridiculous additional buff to make up for losing the 4++.

I think they'll be 4 wounds, 2+, 5++, 5+++ against mortals. So they take away the 4++ but give custodes an extra wound and more resistance against mortals.

Hopefully they make storm shields available to more units. Allarus with storm shields and spears could be fun.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Honestly asking, we agree that this is a character killing unit right? What type of units would you try to throw it at? It can't take down DPs, or heavy T8 Characters, so like T4 characters? Librarians?

What is this unit's preferred target?

Also, has it been confirmed that it has no ranged weapon? I can't see any notes about one, or that it has one on it's pictures?

He can take down high toughness stuff since he re rolls all wounds against characters. He won't take down morty or magnus, but it would be stupid if he did.
I think when kitted out with a relic and/or warlord trait, the blade champion will be a serious threat for most characters in the game.

Jarms48 wrote:

Yeah I don't think they can take away our 4++ and just give us one extra wound. We'd need some ridiculous additional buff to make up for losing the 4++.

I think they'll be 4 wounds, 2+, 5++, 5+++ against mortals. So they take away the 4++ but give custodes an extra wound and more resistance against mortals.

Hopefully they make storm shields available to more units. Allarus with storm shields and spears could be fun.

Imo that is not enough. We need +1wound AND the 4++ in the current meta unless we get some additional defensive buff.

Deathshroud termis are T5, 4++ and - 1dmg. There is no justification for us to lose our 4++ unless we get something else in addition to the extra wound.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Not really seeing the use of the third style? I mean, we basically can wound any characters on a 2+ now as is, what is the value of it? It would still take multiples of this guy to take down Morty or any DP if that's what they are thinking?

-4 and damage 3? Would you rather do 2x lower S, lower AP, dam1 attacks or +1S but lower D attacks?

At least for me looking at those I noticed dam3 before ability. Flat 3 is pretty sweet and lot better than dam2 in age of "-1 dam abilities everywhere".

Big questions though
WHY would you take him?
And HOW do you deliver him?

As to the why - I mean there's a case to be made to eliminate frontlining buffing characters like Chaplains. But I'd then expect him to get eradicated shortly after, effectively being points neutral at best.
Anything that buffs is usually well protected beind obscuring, bodyguards, blocking bodies...

As to the HOW - the only way I can see is with FGLTC. And that leaves you with a sub 25% chance to actually make it into combat, meaing he'll likely do nothing until T3.
Both walking up (with escort or without) or putting him in a LR or Coronus (lol) has pretty much the same problem.
I don't see a way, with the current/revealed rules, how one can make him work unless your opponent comes to you and delivers what you want to kill while not having anything to disrupt your plans like a fights first/fights last ability...

In the end, he's a melee vindicare...

 Thairne wrote:
Big questions though
WHY would you take him?
And HOW do you deliver him?

As to the why - I mean there's a case to be made to eliminate frontlining buffing characters like Chaplains. But I'd then expect him to get eradicated shortly after, effectively being points neutral at best.
Anything that buffs is usually well protected beind obscuring, bodyguards, blocking bodies...

As to the HOW - the only way I can see is with FGLTC. And that leaves you with a sub 25% chance to actually make it into combat, meaing he'll likely do nothing until T3.
Both walking up (with escort or without) or putting him in a LR or Coronus (lol) has pretty much the same problem.
I don't see a way, with the current/revealed rules, how one can make him work unless your opponent comes to you and delivers what you want to kill while not having anything to disrupt your plans like a fights first/fights last ability...

In the end, he's a melee vindicare...

To be fair nobody can answer that unless we see all the rules in the codex. The blade champion does not exist in a vacuum after all.

true enough, it is speculation at this point.But I have a hard time imagining a way, even with a 9th codex, how one could efficiently use him for his intended purpose.

Taking a squad of, say, 5 Shield Guard/Wardens , marching him onto the midfield objective together with a praetor in tow has quite a potential for force projection.
But its prohibitively expensive and takes up a huge chunk of the army for that single, easily telegraphed trick.
It creates a pretty big "no go zone" for the enemy though since that one is not easily to take for anything in the game (depending on what Terminators with which loadout you have in store). But slice n dice characters were the biggest threat to the low output custodians and he plugs that hole neatly, at least.

He seems fun, all profiles have their uses and he really comes into his own against characters.

That said a normal custodian can kill most characters......

It will very much depend if he gets any mobility tricks built in, given his much more animated running pose I could see him having built in advance and charge which would make him a much more attractive option.

I tend to agree with the naysayers on the Blade Champion. It seems like an idea that GW had that they thought was really cool, but didn't think through in terms of practicality. I'm guessing that it's "proper use," if it's going to have one at all, will be its versatility. It's not going to be useful as a hunter, it's going to be an all-comers choice. Put the dude in the center of your force and be guaranteed that he'll have a tool for whatever job he's given. He's not going to be the best at anything, but he'll never find himself in a situation where he's unsuited to tackle his opponent.

How he compares to the other characters in the army and within the army as a whole won't be clear until the new codex is released, but from a design standpoint, he seems like the guy you'd put in your force when you're unsure what you'll need to get done.

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

Also, thinking about getting the box set only because the actual SoS boxes seem to have been sold out for months at my local. I could go ebay but that seems scary.

Mobility tricks on the Blade Champion like advance and charge would make the unit very hard to pass up, at least for me.

The Champion has Always Fight First, meaning he can't be 'fight last''d into being ineligible for Counter Offensive. That alone makes him virtually auto-include in our current setup unless you're running gunline. Controlling tempo in the fight phase is incredibly important.

Excellent sign to see this kind of model from GW. Bodes well for the rest of the book.

I wouldnt go so far.
I think its a reasonable assumption that Custodes will get several fight first/last mechanics like every other codex got so far, if not more.
It is kinda needed and our specialty so far that we can arrange to fight first in most circumstances via things like Tanglefoot Grenade. Because otherwise, if you get hit by things like thunder hammers, you might as well pack and go home.

He's actually a pretty nice piece. I dont know if i'd drop trajann for him, but hes certainly to be a bargin points-wise comparably.

I think he would pair well with a telemon running up the middle in a shadowkeepers list, or with a group of wardens in a transport (if your into that).

A group of 5 wardens in a LR with him tagging along might become a staple in our upcoming dex assuming FW doesnt get updated at the same time. Wardens are gonna be pretty spicy with the flat 3 axes assuming they dont get a points increase. 25 axe attacks + this guy are gonna be very scary to basically anyone.

Yes, but you run into the age old issue of many eggs in one basket.
That group you uses costs you around 650pts...
And holds one objective. The LR especially is weak in there.
I wouldnt even play that in a casual game currently

 Thairne wrote:
Yes, but you run into the age old issue of many eggs in one basket.
That group you uses costs you around 650pts...
And holds one objective. The LR especially is weak in there.
I wouldnt even play that in a casual game currently

But it's a fantastically badass bunch of eggs in a basket
You are right of course, but maybe, just maybe our special land raider won't suck this time.

I would advise restraint (I know, it's me saying this...) on things like "He can't be fight last'd". There is already a very delirious thread on YMDC on how this currently interacts with opposing rules, and in the grand scheme of things, it looks like Defender wins. So I would possibly look for a day 1 erratta on how this is supposed to work. I don't see him suddenly dropping Kharne or whatever his name is from the Deldar. Lets just be thankful he exists currently, and mind our prayers for multi-attack profiles for all Custodes, as well as Flat damage, ownage be upon us.

 Thairne wrote:
I wouldnt go so far.
I think its a reasonable assumption that Custodes will get several fight first/last mechanics like every other codex got so far, if not more.
It is kinda needed and our specialty so far that we can arrange to fight first in most circumstances via things like Tanglefoot Grenade. Because otherwise, if you get hit by things like thunder hammers, you might as well pack and go home.

I wouldn't assume it. GK didn't really get any. They got a relic for one character and another one specific to demons. That's about it from what I remember. One of the reasons DEldar are/were so powerful, an under reported reason, is because they absolutely control the whole tempo of the fight phase. It's super important if you're going to be a melee army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would advise restraint (I know, it's me saying this...) on things like "He can't be fight last'd". There is already a very delirious thread on YMDC on how this currently interacts with opposing rules, and in the grand scheme of things, it looks like Defender wins. So I would possibly look for a day 1 erratta on how this is supposed to work. I don't see him suddenly dropping Kharne or whatever his name is from the Deldar. Lets just be thankful he exists currently, and mind our prayers for multi-attack profiles for all Custodes, as well as Flat damage, ownage be upon us.

I just scanned the front page and don't see the thread. This issue was settled in the last developer commentary/FAQ round though. There's 3 priorities in the fight phase. You can't be forced more than one priority down. You can use the counter-offensive stratagem as long as you're not in the bottom priority. So should be correct.

My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

From faq: "If a unit would be both a ‘fights first’ and a ‘fights last’ unit at the same time, it is instead a ‘fights normally’ unit."

And fights normally is non-active player turn starting so charging into something that makes you strike last(like armour of russ)=armour of russ guy gets to attack since his turn is not going(since he didn't do the charge).

My only question is what are his dimensions? Would a regular SC with just a sword and a helmet sanz plume be an acceptable stand-in?

In my opinion you'd need to do quite alot of work to a standard SC to make him a reasonable stand in.
With counts as and conversion there are two important things to keep in mind - firstly as you mentioned would be the dimensions of the model, which I imagine would be pretty similar to other custodes. Secondly is avoiding confusion for your opponents and making it clear what your conversions are.
The Blade champion stands out from other custodes by having a much more animated mobile pose and having lighter armour on his lower half.

I personally don't think a SC with a different helmet and a sentinel blade with the bolters cut off would be sufficient to make him stand out, perhaps some legs from a venetari would help sell it?

Tiberias wrote:
My current understanding is that in practice fight first and fight last just cancel each other out, so the fight phase proceeds with the standard priorities. So charging unit fights first or defending player chooses the first unit to fight if it is already an ongoing engagement. And you can interrupt als usual.

Unfortunately you're slightly off in your reading there. Fights first and fights last do indeed cancel each other out, further more all instances of firsts first cancel all instances of fights last.
The issue arises where they specify that charging is a "fights first ability" and thus gets cancelled as well.

If a model with fights first charges a unit that makes it fight last both units fight in the standard phase of combat and as it is the charging players turn the opponent gets to choose their unit to attack first.
In practice a fights first ability does very little, at best it means you always get the option to fight second either by getting second choice to fight in your opponents charge phase or by still being able to interrupt on your turn when forced to fight last. Not useless but certainly not as good as you would want it to be.