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2018/02/02 01:30:57
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
Not really. Against an Imperial Knight 1 minimum squad of bikes should do 9.25 wounds. If they're re-rolling 1's to Hit it becomes 10.80. That's plenty enough damage in a heavy bike list to bring down T7 (fliers) and T8 (knights and tanks).
The Shield Captain on a bike should add 4.5 more wounds too. This isn't counting shooting attacks from anyone.
Yeah I wouldnt be too put off by the S6 against T7 or 8 considering that they reroll on the charge. Youre more likely to wound on a 5+ rerolling than a 4+
2018/02/02 03:52:00
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
2018/02/02 04:30:47
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I agree and I’m not saying bikes are bad, obviously they are one of the best things in the new codex. However I think that units with access to axes bring a lot of value to a competitive list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 04:31:36
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/02/02 05:31:37
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
Can we compare math? When I do 1 minimum squad of bikes on Magnus I get 3.70 average wounds, not 1.25. Which sure, one squad of bikes isn't gonna kill him alone but that's fair: he's a ton more points than them. He's still a lot more even if you throw in a Captain.
Adding the Captain raises them to 4.3 plus 1.8 for the Captain himself so 6.1 expected melee wounds. The 4 hurricane Bolters add another 5. So about 11 wounds to Magnus expected in shooting and charging him with just one minimum squad and a Captain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 05:32:03
2018/02/02 06:16:13
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
I have a similar feeling, the S6 weapons have trouble VS high tougness target and the awesome AP of the weapon is neutralized if enemy have any decent inv saves. For example, if the Captain on jetbike charging against Daemon Primarch, or even just normal LoC or even just a Hive Tyrant, assuming all 5 attacks hit, after rolling and rerolling to wound and opponent saving throw, there would be roughly on average only 1.25W goes through, even you are really luck rolling for the damage, it is only around 4W dealt on that monster, not even able drop their stats down one category.
In my mind, the Axe is the best weapon of choice, but shame jet bikers cannot take them.
Can we compare math? When I do 1 minimum squad of bikes on Magnus I get 3.70 average wounds, not 1.25. Which sure, one squad of bikes isn't gonna kill him alone but that's fair: he's a ton more points than them. He's still a lot more even if you throw in a Captain.
Adding the Captain raises them to 4.3 plus 1.8 for the Captain himself so 6.1 expected melee wounds. The 4 hurricane Bolters add another 5. So about 11 wounds to Magnus expected in shooting and charging him with just one minimum squad and a Captain.
I was doing math for a single Captain on Jetbike going against greater monster...... Yeah, if it is a 3 man biker squad backed by a captain charging Magnus then things are looking better.
2018/02/02 06:37:56
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
If you wanna do pure custodes and bring some anti-highToughness a dreadnaught or two might be the cheapest option point wise. Use the deepstrike strat for them and charge asap.
The kheres vs multi-melta I think I saw a chart saying the kheres was simply better damage wise in a good amount of cases even with the damage re-roll from the MM. Even more so if the target has a decent invul save.
The 4 (or 8 if taking two) attacks of s14 -3 ap and a flat 3 damage will really hurt any high toughness target.
Compare dread vs allarus and wardens math to see. lets say t7 and t8 for the target with a 2+/4++
You get 5 wardens with castellan axes, or 4 allarus with axes and with misericordias for the price of 2 dreads Lets assume using the deepstrike/ ds strat for rapid fire range.
EDIT: Math is off will need to redo it
Spoiler:
Wardens (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: 1.04
Wardens (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
Total: .52
Allarus (shooting) vs t7
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds, .52 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is 1.61 wounds .8 not saved
Total: 1.84
Allarus (shooting) vs t8
6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .26 not saved for potential 2 damage.
(grenade launcher) 6 shots is 5.04 hits which is .81 wounds, .41 not saved
total: .93
Dreads (shooting) vs t7
12 shots is 8.16 hits which is 4.08 wounds 1.31 not saved
Dreads (MM) vs t7
2 shots is 1.36 hits which is .87 wounds, .44 not saved for potential 3.5
Dreads (shooting) vs t8
12 shots is 8.16 hits which is 2.61 wounds .84 not saved.
Dreads (MM) vs T8
2 shots is 1.36 hits which is .68 wounds, .34 not saved for potential 3.5
Wardens (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 6.93
Wardens (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 3 attacks is 2.52, .81 wounds, .40 not saved
Total: 5.2
Allarus (melee) vs T7
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 6.53 wounds, 3.26 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total: 6.78
Allaruss (melee) vs T8
(axe)12 attacks is 9.6 hits, 4.8 wounds, 2.4 not saved
(knife) 2 attacks is 1.6, .51 wounds, .26 not saved
Total:5.06
Dreads (melee) vs T7
8 attacks is 6.72 hits, 5.38 wounds, 2.69 not saved
Total: 8.07
Dreads (melee) vs T8
8 attacks is 6.72 hits, 3.36 wounds, 1.68 not saved
Total:5.04
T7 (melee +shooting)
W= 7.97,
A=8.6,
D(K)= 9.38,
D(mm)= 9.26
Winner vs T7= Dreads with Kheres assault
T8(melee+shooting)
W= 5.72
A=5.99
D(k)= 6.35
D(MM)= 6.23
Winner vs T8= Dreads with Kheres assault
(If anyone wants to check my math please do, i rounded up at .xx digits and it is possible i made a mistake somewhere, I also had to re-do wardens because I thought the misericordias weren't stock on them)
Take this for what you will.
EDIT: I dun goofed with the points of dreads vs everything else forgetting to take in the dread's weapon points into count so with 2 dreads i'm under on the other squads by 130 points. To tired to redo the math so results are off on the wardens and allerus by around 33%-66% give or take)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/02 06:55:38
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
2018/02/02 11:05:12
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I don't think a pure bike army is all that great TBH. They have S6 in melee which is okay but will struggle versus high-T enemy units.
Do the math on S6 with re-rolls vs S8 with 1 less AP and notice that Against T7 3+ enemies (like tanks) the bikes actually do the tiniest bit better then axes
Against a Hive Tyrant (4+ invul) the axes are a little bit ahead but imo the bikes Fly + better movement still makes them a better option.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 11:11:05
2018/02/02 16:18:33
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I'm picking up my Five boxes of Bikes this weekend, but might also pick up a box or two of Terminators. I'm still of the opinion the Terminators aren't great, but I really would love to see them work.
I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
2018/02/02 17:03:01
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I’ve had great success with my Allarus so far. In some ways they are better than the bikes. Mind you I’m using AC in an allied role and don’t really need the bikes.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/02/02 19:36:30
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
I'm not sure about that. back a few editions ago this might have been true, but in the era of command auras etc yeah year a LOT of space marine players talking about running naked captains for their command auras. I suspect a Custodes termy strike could be a serious threat to those drop in behind a squad of hell blasters supported by a captain, take some shots and then charge. make sure you draw their captain into the fray. slay the captain and finish off the hell blasters. and you've just removed a pretty potent threat.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/02/02 20:28:57
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: I think it's because we just expected them to be more durable, veteran Custodes but instead GW tried to make them character hunters...which doesn't work that great cause those Grenade Launchers are weak when most characters operate off invulnerables and consolidating doesn't help because they want to fight you in melee anyway.
I'm not sure about that. back a few editions ago this might have been true, but in the era of command auras etc yeah year a LOT of space marine players talking about running naked captains for their command auras. I suspect a Custodes termy strike could be a serious threat to those drop in behind a squad of hell blasters supported by a captain, take some shots and then charge. make sure you draw their captain into the fray. slay the captain and finish off the hell blasters. and you've just removed a pretty potent threat.
8th is the Edition of bubble wrap. It's very unlikely against a competent opponent that you'll ever be able to deep strike within range to even shoot a character, let alone charge one.
Okay, so I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I was looking through the index Custodes list to see if there was any loopholes, and I seem to have found some.
The obvious one is that you can take Custodes Guardian squads with just a sword (no shield) if you want to save points. Not super great, but if you need to shave a couple points it could be useful.
Next is the "hidden" Vexillia. Custodes Guardian squads can take wargear called a "Custodes Vexillia" carried by a normal Guardian. This will stack with the Vexillia Imperius if you want a guardian squad with +2 attacks.
Next is the Power Knife. A Shield Captain (without a Guardian spear) may be equipped with one of these. (and the way it looks, you can take a power knife instead of, or in addition to, a Misericordia). A regular power knife has two advantages over a Misericordia. First, you get the additional attack even if the Shield Captain has a storm shield. Second, it states you get an extra attack, not "attack with this weapon". With the Sword, you gain better AP and damage.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/02 20:57:25
2018/02/02 21:18:12
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I was looking through the index Custodes list to see if there was any loopholes, and I seem to have found some.
The obvious one is that you can take Custodes Guardian squads with just a sword (no shield) if you want to save points. Not super great, but if you need to shave a couple points it could be useful.
Next is the "hidden" Vexillia. Custodes Guardian squads can take wargear called a "Custodes Vexillia" carried by a normal Guardian. This will stack with the Vexillia Imperius if you want a guardian squad with +2 attacks.
Next is the Power Knife. A Shield Captain (without a Guardian spear) may be equipped with one of these. (and the way it looks, you can take a power knife instead of, or in addition to, a Misericordia). A regular power knife has two advantages over a Misericordia. First, you get the additional attack even if the Shield Captain has a storm shield. Second, it states you get an extra attack, not "attack with this weapon". With the Sword, you gain better AP and damage.
Your being 'that guy'.
Don't be 'that guy'.
2018/02/02 21:21:19
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
The hidden Vexilla is correct by RAW, but Ordana is right... Also, being a 'Thay guy' is totally relevant to tactics if you don't end up getting any games.
2018/02/02 22:08:19
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
If you can take a captain with ONLY a sword, and give him an extra sword, you're not a power gamer, you're just using a different and available loud out.
You're not going to be much of "that guy" with anything from Custodes.
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
.
Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 22:22:23
2018/02/02 22:43:34
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
.
Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
this is very much a "that guy" situation. it's blatently clear to me that the index is intended for stuff like libbys on bikes. not custodes. This is the type of thing that leads to sarcasitic GWFAQ responses people.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/02/03 01:38:27
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Spartacus wrote: You can't use the index data sheet for 'Custodian Guard' to refer to the new codex datasheet for an HQ 'Shield-Captain', they are totally different and GW's designers commentary flowchart allowing you to take index wargear options doesn't apply, as the distinction is made on the name of the datasheet, not the model.
.
Actually, it states the opposite of what you claim.
It specifically states: Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options.
As long as Codex and Index both call a model "Shield Captain" it's totally legal.
Although, it would be bending things a bit if you doubled-up and had a Shield Captian with Sword, knife, and Misericordia. That guy would have 7 attacks before being buffed.
No.... I don't think you're reading this correctly.
There is no 'Shield-Captain' datasheet in the index
"Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options".
Datasheets are what is being referred to here I.e. the index version = the index datasheet, which doesn't exist. Shield-Captains are a brand new unit from the perspective of datasheets, and just because the model shares the name with what used to be the squad leader for Custodian Guard (a totally different unit), doesn't mean you can port over all of the wargear options.
Apart from that its a flagrant abuse of the fact that GW has renamed certain items such as the Vexillas and Misericordia, which is why I think it would attract a lot of negative feedback from your potential opponents, but thats a different issue of course.
2018/02/03 04:41:25
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I'll fully admit that the power knife vs misericordia is gaming the rules more than a bit, although technically legal. Let's just be serious here though. Will this EVER happen? The spear or ax will always be taken on the Shield Captain, even with this minor bonus.
Taking sword-only Guardians is totally legitimate.
A Vexillia in a Guardian squad is still legitimate, despite raising eyebrows. Honestly, I built those guys back when you could have one per squad. Now that they are one-man elites, my Elites section is swamped and I have squads that are understrength. Taking one as a squad add-on helps with that. Honestly, it's really not that overpowered. It costs almost as much as a codex Vexillia, but the +1 attack bonus isn't an aura. This one totally complies with GW rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 04:47:35
2018/02/03 05:47:22
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
cuda1179 wrote: I'll fully admit that the power knife vs misericordia is gaming the rules more than a bit, although technically legal. Let's just be serious here though. Will this EVER happen? The spear or ax will always be taken on the Shield Captain, even with this minor bonus.
Taking sword-only Guardians is totally legitimate.
A Vexillia in a Guardian squad is still legitimate, despite raising eyebrows. Honestly, I built those guys back when you could have one per squad. Now that they are one-man elites, my Elites section is swamped and I have squads that are understrength. Taking one as a squad add-on helps with that. Honestly, it's really not that overpowered. It costs almost as much as a codex Vexillia, but the +1 attack bonus isn't an aura. This one totally complies with GW rules.
except the squads AREN'T under strength, they deliebratly made CG squads 3-5 man to account for this
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/02/03 05:51:32
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/02/03 07:29:01
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
Well.....yes and no. If you want to use a Command Point to teleport a unit of guardians deep into the enemy's lines, may as well make it worth it and use a large squad. And if you are doing that, hiding that Vexillia in the squad could be quite helpful.
2018/02/03 07:34:18
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
cuda1179 wrote: I guess "under strength" was a bad term. I'm a tad OCD and I like my units to all be the same number of guys.
I actually think squads of 3 might be the better way to deploy now. If you're fielding your basic troops it's just to get more command points so you wanna keep em cheapish while still effective. so I think 3 man squads with spears is the best way.
Well.....yes and no. If you want to use a Command Point to teleport a unit of guardians deep into the enemy's lines, may as well make it worth it and use a large squad. And if you are doing that, hiding that Vexillia in the squad could be quite helpful.
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/02/03 09:11:43
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
2018/02/03 10:46:00
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.
or allerus termies and save on the CPs.
It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.
I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
