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Now the argument of whether modeling Bikes with their lances down is modeling for advantage has risen.

This pains me and I do not see the argument.

Is the argument based on LOS targeting rules (if I can see any part of your model I can shoot you)?

Honestly I would model them with the lances down just because it makes them easier to transport

Literally exactly that. I don't want lances up so my dolls aren't breaking in transports. They're all going down.

Took the following list this weekend. More times I play, the less use I see the terminators having.

Batallion:
Shield Captian on Bike - WL Trait 5+++ Relic Bike
Valoris

3 Guards 2 Spear 1 Shield
3 Guards 2 Spear 1 Shield
3 Guards 2 Spear 1 Shield
3 Guards 2 Spear 1 Shield

4 Bikes HB

3 Terminators
1 Verminaotr Velexia +1 Attack

All have Misercordia

Aux detachment of Cul Assassin

5 CP.

Termies drew a little bit of fire and killed chaff, but that was about it.

Bikes are, as everyone knows really good.

Valoris was more support with aura then anything. Got me a CP back that saved the life of a shield guy taking las cannon hits.

Assassin was great as I tossed her up field asap to cripple psykers and be annoying.

All in all was alright. Everything did as expected.

Thinking of dropping termie banner and using -1 to hit banner on footsloggers. Possibly still keep termies for more turn 1 charges/distraction, but also can use the points for bikes instead.

Still have 11 more bikes to build and paint, but wanting to try the 2k bike only list

I mostly intend on using my terminators to screen bike captains. Launch them into cover and hunker down, potentially unleash the lions to create a far larger screen, while they advance into the opponent.

Shame to hear they didn't do too hot.

 cuda1179 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
[

I think If I was going to teleport a strike unit into enemy lines I'd wanna go with wardens squad. slightly more killy.

or allerus termies and save on the CPs.

It kind-of depends. If you aren't running a pure custodes list you only have a 5++, and the storm shields look a lot more tempting. Wardens don't have access to them. With the Vexillia in the squad you get the same number of attacks per model, but also get to reroll moral tests and have access to storm shields.

I also think I'd argue that the lack of a vexila in squad option in the codex means you can't put one in a squad anymore.I know I'd call shinnagens if someone tried that. we need to use some common sense in this regard. and accept that custodes as of the new codex are a totally differant beast from their index rules.

I agree with using common sense, but I think that went out the window when you can have an Eldar Autarch with a jetbike, scatter laser, laser lance, eldar missile launcher, banshee mask.

you think it went out the window because eldar players are using options they've had since literally second edition and have been kitbashing out of metal models?

Autrarchs are the poster child of why the index exception has to exist, because in a codex that talks about them being the be-all end-all of flexible wargear choices they have none.

also the autarch combination you've posted isn't even correct, half of those are vehicle weapons. if you're going to scream the sky is falling, at least get your example right instead of massive amounts of derp.


Back on the subject of Custodes: I expect it to be FAQ'd out as a special case in the upcoming FAQ, but for now the ability to take only sentinel blades on CG is correct by RAW, as is the ability to take a vexilla.

There is one element missing though: the same flowchart says to use all updated points costs and abilities from the codex, and the ability "Custodes Vexilla" is the same exact ability name that was updated on vexilus praetors, and as such would be replaced with the new version. Amusingly, this change also entirely removes the ability of the unit to buff itself or anything else with a vexilla effect, since the ability itself mandates that the buff is given "within 6" of any friendly VEXILUS PRAETORS with this vexilla" a requirement the CG squad can never meet.

So if you want to pay 20/30/50 points to reroll your morale, be my guest.

I get you guys want to run custodes as custodes, but man 300 points of 3x10 guardsmen, 2x1 company commanders, and 3x3 mortar squads in a battalion adds so much to a custodian list. It is much better if a 3d6 bloodletter bomb crashes into 45 points of guardsmen than 300 points of custodes. And a few mortars would do so much to address things hiding in non-LOS buildings (especially in ITC).

When I emailed GW about this the reply I got was (paraphrased), Yes, it's legal and we hope you are looking forward to the FAQ's being updated in March.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Literally exactly that. I don't want lances up so my dolls aren't breaking in transports. They're all going down.

Had someone moan about this facing my Bretonnians a few years back, personally it was a very useful heads up for the sort of person I was facing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:
I get you guys want to run custodes as custodes, but man 300 points of 3x10 guardsmen, 2x1 company commanders, and 3x3 mortar squads in a battalion adds so much to a custodian list. It is much better if a 3d6 bloodletter bomb crashes into 45 points of guardsmen than 300 points of custodes. And a few mortars would do so much to address things hiding in non-LOS buildings (especially in ITC).

Don't have the current IG Codex, but do have a reasonably capable IG force from 5th edition, covered in dust, have wondered on doing more or less exactly this for +3CP and to provide some basic capability to hold rear area objectives, idea is also a small unit of Sisters of Silence as well for a 3k Apoc force around a 2k Banana core - then just the IG or sisters with a slightly smaller core for conventional games.

Seems one of the main problems the bananas will have is a lack of units to actually sit on an objective, why stick a ~200 point unit thats needed in the front line on an objective thats free for the taking when a 10 man guard squad can do the same, and both with prevent an opponent claiming an objective without at least making a nominal effort.

Hadn't considered mortars, but do have six assembled (and other weapons to taste)

Custodes almost work point for point as combat units, but in a game where you have to take objectives to win ... custodes are so bad. If you running custodes just for fluff and dice and killing reasons, yea I get it. But if you are trying to defeat your opponent in a game where objectives, maelstrom, or ITC secondaries matter ... you better damn well have some allies that are numerous, fast, and/or cheap.

EDIT: next sunday I am going to a fluffier chapter approved game day. Running 1700 points of imperial defenders against 2000 points of non-imperium something. Going to put my bikes on the board like this:

CUSTODIAN Supreme Command - 3x biker HQs, 2x victor's of blood games, 2x 3++ relics
SISTERS Patrol - Celestine + 1x5 bolter girls
CADIAN mortar brigade:
3x company commanders
3x astropaths
6x guardsmen with mortars
3x flamer sentinels
4x mortar teams and 2x basilisk

I think this is how custodes would really run. Heroes arriving to save the imperium, not as some kind of main line army.

Approaching this from a NOVA point of view, I think running Custodes with an elite ally works fine. I just took a battalion with an Imperial Knight Crusader against against a Dark Angel plasma army and it was a huge win in Custodes favor under NOVA rules and objectives. We played the Scouring.

I'm going to experiment with other long ranged support. That's where they need the most help.

Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?

the_au wrote:
Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?

It depends. I think they are but I don't really want to bring in a Guard Battalion/Brigade. If you ARE willing to bring in a cheap allied Battalion than no, probably not.

Audustum wrote:

the_au wrote:
Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?

It depends. I think they are but I don't really want to bring in a Guard Battalion/Brigade. If you ARE willing to bring in a cheap allied Battalion than no, probably not.

Comparing anything to the respective IG option will make it look bad.

If you're going pure Custodes, they are a must I think. Our best stratagems cost 3 CP, so to only start with 4-5 really cramps your options. Also 3++ is an amazing thing to have considering your guys cost a minimum 50 points, many people seem to be passing it off now that theres easy access to 4++, but its a significant increase in durability to mix in a few shields into each squad.

the_au wrote:
Are custodian guards worth taking for the 3 CP?

If your playing pure custodes, yes they can be.

If your ok with using any form of allies, then most likely not.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Is the argument based on LOS targeting rules (if I can see any part of your model I can shoot you)?

Honestly I would model them with the lances down just because it makes them easier to transport

Without green stuff, it isn't actually possible to model them all with lances down. One out of three models have a lance that just can't go quite down. At least as far as I can tell. They have these flowing ribbons at their hip that drastically limit the position of the lances.

I have no idea how I'm going to transport them honestly. I'm putting them in a literal box right now.

stratigo wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Is the argument based on LOS targeting rules (if I can see any part of your model I can shoot you)?

Honestly I would model them with the lances down just because it makes them easier to transport

Without green stuff, it isn't actually possible to model them all with lances down. One out of three models have a lance that just can't go quite down. At least as far as I can tell. They have these flowing ribbons at their hip that drastically limit the position of the lances.

I have no idea how I'm going to transport them honestly. I'm putting them in a literal box right now.

Correct. One out of three doesn't like going down. Just cut the arm slightly and magnetize it, ezpz

Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes almost work point for point as combat units, but in a game where you have to take objectives to win ... custodes are so bad. If you running custodes just for fluff and dice and killing reasons, yea I get it. But if you are trying to defeat your opponent in a game where objectives, maelstrom, or ITC secondaries matter ... you better damn well have some allies that are numerous, fast, and/or cheap.

EDIT: next sunday I am going to a fluffier chapter approved game day. Running 1700 points of imperial defenders against 2000 points of non-imperium something. Going to put my bikes on the board like this:

CUSTODIAN Supreme Command - 3x biker HQs, 2x victor's of blood games, 2x 3++ relics
SISTERS Patrol - Celestine + 1x5 bolter girls
CADIAN mortar brigade:
3x company commanders
3x astropaths
6x guardsmen with mortars
3x flamer sentinels
4x mortar teams and 2x basilisk

I think this is how custodes would really run. Heroes arriving to save the imperium, not as some kind of main line army.

We don't know that though. I don't think anyone yet has tried the full bike army. That might very well be worth it for objectives as they are fast and durable, can kill chaff easily and hit bigger targets hard.

This list is more IG tactics then Custodes Tactics. They don't often hang around a bunch of lowly guardsmen

If you read the fluff in the codex, they are a mainline army. Elite, but still a army.

Also you cant have 2 of the relic bikes. Your CP spending on open the vaults says different.

And its a huge waste of 4 CP to give your biker HQs a reroll to wound and save, as they naturally get a reroll to hit by their inherent ability.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.

I really rather not speculate on this. I see this 10000 times a day in the Facebook Custodes group.

We don't know what we are getting. It was never said so we may only get dreads and nothing else. No one knows. I could hope for most of it to transfer, but pointless to speculate with 0 details besides "they are working on it".

 cuda1179 wrote:
Once FW rules come out how much do you think the Custodes meta game will change? Giving us better long range anti tank, extremely durable ranged infantry horde killers, vehicle killing weapons for Guardian squads, and some different types of close combat weapons should shake things up a bit.

Impossible to know, without knowing how FW stuff is going to be. Chapter approved nuclear bombed forgeworld into the ground, so it's entirely possible the FW units will cost too much to be worth it.

@stroodles, the +1 invuln relic will also provide the shield captain with a 3++ as he is in a pure custodes detachment. Also, Victor is still worth it for captains because, lets be honest, you are ALWAYS going to use it for a failed save on a dude you're chucking into melee.

I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself

Kzraahk wrote:
I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself

And this is why I keep saying that custodes are an allied detachment that gets fed CP to kill things. My list above is planned around something similar, with the other two bikers going in second to shoulder the mantle when the first 5+++ guy dies.

If your just using some bike captains I can see the benefit of the Victor stratagem because they will be shot at.
But if your also running a bunch of normal bikes I think it quickly loses value.
Your opponent isn't going to shoot a 3++ 7w bike with a re-roll when he can kill 2 4++ 4w bikes instead.

As for FW. I agree that there is no point until we see what we get and how their rules translate over.
I also don't see it overtake a guard detachment is pure efficiency. It will probably help a pure force tho, unless its all gak.

There is no telling when forge world will even release rules, but given current delays, I would not count on any time soon

Kzraahk wrote:
I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself

So I was running him with the 5+++ at first too, but I'm starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit) actually prevents more damage to him.

Has anyone else noticed that Allurus seem to have the most best strategems that are based on unit type?

 Primark G wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that Allurus seem to have the most best strategems that are based on unit type?

I have too yeah, they definatly seem to be intended as the deep striking shock troops of the 'dex

Audustum wrote:

Kzraahk wrote:
I'm loving the bike captain with the relic and 5+++. Dude took out two Predators, a character and his retinue all by himself

So I was running him with the 5+++ at first too, but I'm starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit) actually prevents more damage to him.

Well, I'm actually running it with 6 bikes and a Vexilia Magnifica. While an extra -1 helps, the 5+ feel no pain really makes a difference. (Also coming from Death Guard, it feels weird running an HQ without FNP)

 Primark G wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that Allurus seem to have the most best strategems that are based on unit type?

It's the only reason im using them. Their stratagems are good.