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The jetbikes are great but I would not discount the terminators either plus they have some good shooting too.

Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.

It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.

yeah I personally would have given the termies an extra wound and a 4++ (bringing them to 3++ in full detachment) standard for their price.

They have less mobility (other than deep strike), less wounds, and less toughness. Yes they can take the axes, but that doesn't make up for what they lack.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.

It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.

See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.

 Primark G wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.

It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.

See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.

I gotta disagree, They're overcosted compared to the bike. I get the feeling your meta isn't super competitive.

The Allarus have the same number of wounds (4) as the jetbikes. Having native deep strike is a big selling point as well and they have a lot of nice stratagems associated with them. They're not the "plug and play and do it all" units Vertus Praetors are, but I think they can definitely work in any pure Custodes army as long as you know how you're using them, their shooting can threaten a lot of characters and when they don't kill outright they can charge and finish them off in CC. I also think they're a great partner to Vertus Praetors too, while the jetbikes are moving up the board the Allarus deep strike at the right moment. Right away you give your opponent multiple durable high threat units in their face they need to split their fire to try and take down. In a vacuum I don't think they're a bad unit at all. Sure the jetbikes are more point efficient, but at least for me personally spamming one good unit doesn't really appeal to me and I'd rather see some variety in an army that's already fairly limited in unit selection.

3x allarus is similar in points to Celestine and 2 gemini. I like that allarus can reliably ace a T4 character that is in 12" deepstrike range. But boy that is a lot of points to kill a 30-100 point character. Celestine can do a similar job, with less CP, and might be more durable. I struggle to see how they will kill their points if they fail their 9" charge. And the vexila teleport homer is just too expensive if you are using less than 5-6 of these guys to justify the insane cost.

Allarus can deep strike witin 6" of a vexilla and 3" from enemy units - that is powerful. They can also make enemy units not fire overwatch and lower BS/WS. S6 is alright but will really struggle versus T7/T8. While the terminators are not the end all-be all they have their place.

Allarus aren't getting shot off the table turn 1 either. That is a pretty major selling point. The enemy knows that the bikes are a major threat and will deal with them asap. Regardless how much of a threat the Allarus are, they are not dying until you set them up and make a turn.

 Primark G wrote:
Allarus can deep strike witin 6" of a vexilla and 3" from enemy units - that is powerful. They can also make enemy units not fire overwatch and lower BS/WS. S6 is alright but will really struggle versus T7/T8. While the terminators are not the end all-be all they have their place.

It is, but the Vexilla Teleport Homer is tricky and pricey to pull off reliably, taking Valoris can help mitigate the cost if you go pure Custodes. Also they can go to S8 if they take Castellan Axes, which they probably should since there's little reason not to. They can make up for the lower AP compared to Guardian Spears with Castellan Strike and against T7 (which is most vehicles) they're just flat out better than Spears.

I use a Vanguard detachment of Custodes to support my SM. The 5++ Vexilla is amazingly good for a mobile gunline. If the enemy should venture to close they will get smacked hard. My reference to S6 was in regard to the jetbikes. Of course you will always take axes for the Allurus.

I don't think the Terminators are bad. The bikes are just better in almost every way outside of gambling on 9" charges.

And if your opponent is letting you deepstrike within 12" of a character your not facing good opponents.

 Primark G wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Them costing 6-8pts less than the bikes makes them entirely discountable, unfortunately.

It's an absolutely absurd margin considering how directly worse the Terminators are. They needed an extra toughness or a higher save. Even the bikes have an extra toughness, on top of 8" more movement, better shooting and stronger charges.

See I can tell you have not read the codex that much - they are absolutely amazing if you know what you are doing.

I'm not quite sure what to tell you, friend. I feel quite confident in my analysis of them. They're fine. Compared to bikes they're bad.

A niche random Stratagem bomb does not make a good unit.

My list uses a unit of them for their Stratagems, because they're alright. That does not make them better than bikes in any conceivable way, though.

Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?

Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.

Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.

Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?

Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?

I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.

But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)

 Primark G wrote:
I use a Vanguard detachment of Custodes to support my SM. The 5++ Vexilla is amazingly good for a mobile gunline. If the enemy should venture to close they will get smacked hard. My reference to S6 was in regard to the jetbikes. Of course you will always take axes for the Allurus.

I gave you the the math earlier in this very thread. The S6 bikes do more wounds to T7/T8 than Allarus axes because they re-roll to Wound on the charge.

bananathug wrote:
Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?

Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.

Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.

Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?

Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?

I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.

But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)

Speaking as a Cawlstar player with 3 jetbikes that need painting ... My worry is that the biker HQs need CP and do a very similar job to Celestine. Celestine doesn't need CP and can roll with some scouts without losing big buffs. Whereas the biker HQs can only come in a supreme command if you want the +1 to invul saves and strategems (which are mandatory for viability). If the Cawlstar didn't need so damn many CP to work, yeah I could almost see it. But I think Celestine and Scouts will always do more for admech than 3x biker HQs. I will be thinking about it because I like all those models.

You’re assuming they will get the charge - it’s not a sure thing. Terminators are a perfect counter assault unit or can go on the aggressive. There are several really strong strategems that only they have access to. If you don’t think stopping several enemy units from firing overwatch is a big deal you must be a casual gamer. And here’s the thing - I never said Allarus are better.

 Primark G wrote:
You’re assuming they will get the charge - it’s not a sure thing. Terminators are a perfect counter assault unit or can go on the aggressive. There are several really strong strategems that only they have access to. If you don’t think stopping several enemy units from firing overwatch is a big deal you must be a casual gamer. And here’s the thing - I never said Allarus are better.

Movement 14 Bikes with Fly are INFINITELY more likely to get the charge than Allarus or most other units in this game for that matter. You forget the golden rule that the faster unit usually dictates the terms of the fight. And if you want to talk counter charging...let's look at the unit with a stratagem that actually LET'S them charge on the opponent's turn, yeah? That'd be the Bikes. The Bikes can also charge Fire Raptors, Storm Ravens and other flyers you should be seeing in competitive matches while the Allarus can just fiddle on the ground.

Let's look at 'character shooting' too. One of the things Allarus are supposed to be good at. You know how many Allarus are needed to 1 round a character with shooting? Let's use the humble and quite average Space Marine Captain as an example. For purposes of this, we'll ignore the fact that if you're fighting a good opponent you will never be able to deep strike within 12" of a vanilla captain like this:

3 Ballistus Grenade Launchers shooting at a naked Captain in Power Armor with an Iron Halo will inflict 2 wounds on average. That's it. Not even 50% of the Captain's life. The axes, even IN rapid fire range, will only inflict 2.5. A Captain has 5 wounds. That means even after you spend CP to let an Allarus unit shoot at a humble Captain, you're still not likely to actually kill the guy unless you're packing more than a minimum squad. Let's look at the costs on that, a minimum squad already costs you 252 points. The stratagem to shoot characters is 2CP on top of those points. That lowely Captain you just tried to kill? 74 points. That minimum squad of Allarus costs more than THREE TIMES the Captain, can't even kill him with shooting, and doesn't have the Fly keyword to get over his surrounding retinue.

If you take a bigger unit of Allarus you can one round the Captain, sure, but now you're looking at an even BIGGER than 3-1 ratio on points. This is not an effective method at all. Heaven forbid you actually try to shoot a Character who WANTS to fight you either; it's gonna get even worse.

FYI, if you CAN somehow shoot their Hurricane Bolters against a character, the Bikes average more damage. 3 Bikes is 36 Hurricane Bolter shots (we gave Rapid Fire to the Allarus so we'll give it to the Bikes too). 36 bolter shots is 5 damage exactly against T4 3+, which means the Bikes SHOULD kill the Captain with their guns if they can shoot him.

Conversely, the Bikes can Deep Strike if you want (From Golden Light), can jump over chaff and retinues, are better at killing higher toughness, get the same number of attacks and only cost 270 to the Allarus's 252.

Even without Deep Strike, there's no realistic danger to the Bikes from dying from T1 shooting. Without any Vexillia, it takes the following to kill a minimum unit of 3 Bikes:

324 Bolter Shots

54 Plasma Shots (27 overcharged)

16 Lascannon Shots

WITH the Vexillia Magnifica:

432 Bolter Shots

72 Plasma Shots (36 overcharged)

21 Lascannon Shots

Most lists won't be able to concentrate this much firepower on a single squad in 1 turn (just due to positioning more than anything). Even if they do, you already won if they bother. The amount of points invested by an opponent to produce any of these numbers is far and away higher than the 270 for a squad of 3 Bikes. The lascannons alone, before adding in the costs of the models actually holding them, are 400 points! So yes, the Bikes are very safe T1 despite not having Deep Strike.

Regarding Overwatch, the Bikes are perfectly safe. Those numbers are what it takes to take down Bikes with Ballistic Skill of 3+, they get positively ridiculous in size when your enemy is only hitting on a 6+.

If you want an easy way to check my math, feel free to feed it all in here and see for yourself:

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

If you're building competitively, you have no reason to ever take an Allarus over a Bike. Not in any scenario. The Allarus look cool and I love their look, but they're severely overcosted for what they bring to the table.

Well. I have 4 boxes of Bikes, this made me want to get a Vexillia lol.

I don't think anybody is denying that Allarus are more point efficient than jetbikes or even equal, the bikes clearly give you more bang for your buck. And I don't think estimating their value is as simple as the point value of whatever character they kill. No character is equal points wise to an MSU squad of Allarus aside from Guilliman and Daemon Primarchs (which aren't exactly their ideal targets anyway). True the Captain they tried to kill is only 74 points, but what about the points values combined of all the units that was relying on the Captain's reroll aura? The value of getting rid of that aura is harder to quantify but it's still a valuable removal nonetheless. Also, while they're supposed to excel at hunting characters, don't get it twisted and thinking that's all they're supposed to be good for. At the end of the day, you're still getting a S5 T5 4W 4A 2+/4++ death squad with S8 AP-2 DD3 weapons that are haunting your opponent's backline that they still have to answer. You can use Unleash the Lions to get them to multi charge and opponent's backline and suddenly that firing line is completely useless while the rest of your army is free to do whatever they like. Or you can support the rest of your army by shutting down a scary overwatch unit (D-Scythe Wraithguards are still a thing, right?) so your jetbikes are free to charge them without worry with Concussion Grenades. As a standalone unit, nobody is denying that the jetbikes do more, but I think it might help to think of the Allarus as more of a support unit that works best in conjunction with the rest of your army that can still beat things down while also being able to take shots to the face nearly as well as the jetbikes.

If you're totally comfortable with never using Allarus and spamming jetbikes, then that's totally viable. They can obviously stand to go down a few points per model to balance them out a bit better, but all I'm saying is their value added to the table is more than just what the numbers tell you, there's the tactical aspect in using them in a way that works to consider as well.

So.. do you like a unit of bikes with Salvo launchers at all?

I can see them being decent against a vehicle heavy list but I'd generally stick with Hurricane Bolters.

Here is the math for three Allarus Custodians swinging against a Captain with power armor and Iron Halo. Of course first they will shoot ...

Grenade launchers - 3d3 shots on average 5-6 hits wounding 3+... let’s say six to keep the math simple. So 5 hit (BS2) and on average 3 wound. Let’s say they score 1 wound... four wounds left to go now. Next they fire their axes... 6 shots, 5 hit and 3 wound... assume one goes through for 2 more damage. Now your Captain has 2 wounds left. The Custodians charge and swing with their axes... 12 attacks hitting on 2s so on average 10 hit, that’s 10 hits on average wounding 2s so say 8 go through and 7 wound... Captain makes 3-4 saves, each attack is d3 damage - your Captain is deep sixed. If somehow your Captain survives the axes the Allarus will follow up with their Miscordiea... you probably see where this going.

Now I think the jetbikes are stellar but up against high toughness models with invulnerable saves and possibly feel no pain as well if they don’t get the charge a kill is not guaranteed. You have to clear out all the chaff first and they won’t be able to target characters in the shooting phase like Allarus. So I don’t see a pure jetbike army winning big versus top tier. As a game progressed then they will start to shine more and can stick around due to their excellent durability.

I agree in a way. The bikers are fantastic BUT only in one situation – when they charge.

One of the biggest things I found with my unit of 9 Shining Spears, is that, on the charge they destroy pretty much everything, but, after that charge they suffer. A lot. The same will be with the Custodes Bikers. If they don’t kill what they charge (or they get counter charged) they no longer get their re-rolls to wound. As a result, their damage will drop off.

You’re not going to get the charge every single time. Planning your damage output around getting the charge continuously isn’t going to see you winning competitive games.

The way I see myself going, is 2-3 bike Captains, a Termi Captain and a unit of Termis. This is a reasonably pointed plug and play supreme command detachment that offers a variety of threat and possibilities.

That’s a much better way to go.

bananathug wrote:
Any thoughts on the bikes + cawlbots and a couple dune-crawlers?

Seems like they would provide a good bit of mobile smash f-ery to an army that struggles with mobility.

Also that's a ton of t6+, multi-wound 2+s backed by invuln saves.

Sprinkle with a cheap guard bat for CP(warloard + relic)/bubble wrap?

Better with guard gunline? Blood angels slamginius? DA black knight bikers?

I'm really interested in starting a real soup army and am struggling to figure out the shooty part (if I need one) of imperial soup.

But damn, with the relics, vets of the blood games(can I use this on more than one biker captain?) I'm looking at starting the game with 0 cp...(can't regen before game strats right?)

Stuff like IG Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquilla work before the start of the game since nothing says they need to be on the table to work.

I think the AdMech stuff is to expensive to fit in together with guard and a solid custodes force.
This list I am currently experimenting with is this.

Custodes Outrider Detachment
Shield-Captain on Dawnspear Jetbike (relic bike)
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters
3 Vertus Praetor with Hurrican Bolters

Blood Angel Battalion
Captain with Jump pack(relic), Stormshield, Thunderhammer
Sanguinary Priest with Storm Bolter
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 Scouts

Imperium Battalion
Saint Celestine with 2 Gemini
Tempestus Prime (Warlord, Grand Strategist) with Command Rod, Kurov's Aquilla (relic)
Tempestus Prime with Power Axe, Command Rod
Culexus Assassin
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol
5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma guns, 1 Plasma Pistol

1999 points, 10 CP (2 spend on additional relics)

Its shooting power is limited but gets where you need it via DS while the rest of the list overwhelms the opponent with very durable targets.

Are you certain you can take the relic on your Prime in the Imperial detachment? Typically you need a pure detachment to unlock them, however it all comes down to the wording in the book, as it has been slightly less than consistent.

Just a quick head-up to anyone looking for alternate custodes models for variation. I know Ronin miniature made some custodes a while back, but do NOT do an image search for "Ronin custodes" unless you like pictures of very hairy naked men.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Are you certain you can take the relic on your Prime in the Imperial detachment? Typically you need a pure detachment to unlock them, however it all comes down to the wording in the book, as it has been slightly less than consistent.

I believe every codex gives you a free relic of your warlords faction. Guard is no different.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I don't think anybody is denying that Allarus are more point efficient than jetbikes or even equal, the bikes clearly give you more bang for your buck. And I don't think estimating their value is as simple as the point value of whatever character they kill. No character is equal points wise to an MSU squad of Allarus aside from Guilliman and Daemon Primarchs (which aren't exactly their ideal targets anyway). True the Captain they tried to kill is only 74 points, but what about the points values combined of all the units that was relying on the Captain's reroll aura? The value of getting rid of that aura is harder to quantify but it's still a valuable removal nonetheless.

In my poor post's defense, you're raising fairly different issues than the people I was originally responding to. But let's look at yours now:

We were looking at killing the Captain specifically because it was touted that is something Allarus excel at, but the reality is they're worse at it than Bikes. You want to peg a value on the aura, but if we're going that route we should acknowledge a separate truth: the Bikes can just as easily, more easily than the Allarus, kill the units that Captain was buffing and make him moot. They can do this much more easily and effectively than the Allarus can kill either the Captain or what the Captain is buffing.

Also, while they're supposed to excel at hunting characters, don't get it twisted and thinking that's all they're supposed to be good for. At the end of the day, you're still getting a S5 T5 4W 4A 2+/4++ death squad with S8 AP-2 DD3 weapons that are haunting your opponent's backline that they still have to answer.

Which you're overpaying for when you could just take a Bike for better and more effective results.

You can use Unleash the Lions to get them to multi charge and opponent's backline and suddenly that firing line is completely useless while the rest of your army is free to do whatever they like.

Well, no, they can just split fire. I wouldn't say it's useless.

And you can In Golden Light for cheaper or equal to the cost of Unleash the Lions and have a better, more effective unit in the same back line.

Or you can support the rest of your army by shutting down a scary overwatch unit (D-Scythe Wraithguards are still a thing, right?) so your jetbikes are free to charge them without worry with Concussion Grenades.

Wraith armies are pretty scarce, competitively, but you have a better option with the Bikes for D-Scythe and flamers: just ignore them. Wraithguard are T6 with 3W and a 3+. A minimum squad of Bikes drops one with Hurricane Bolters from the get-go (3.33 wounds). Then the overwatch: 4d3 S10 AP-4 1 damage. Sure this is it, right?

2.68 wounds. That's how much damage those 4 Wraithguard with D-Scythes should do. They don't even kill one bike. Then they get absolutely shredded in return with the Bikes putting out 11.12 wounds, killing 3 more models and leaving 1 survivor.

So yeah, stopping overwatch against Bikes is NOT a priority. 252 points on some Allarus AND a stratagem to prevent 2.68 wounds is not cost effective.

Also as a FYI, D-Scythes and Flamers can't Overwatch if you charge from over 8" or from behind LoS blocking cover.

As a standalone unit, nobody is denying that the jetbikes do more, but I think it might help to think of the Allarus as more of a support unit that works best in conjunction with the rest of your army that can still beat things down while also being able to take shots to the face nearly as well as the jetbikes.

The problem is they have no cost effective support. The Bikes are better than the Allarus at the Allarus's own job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Here is the math for three Allarus Custodians swinging against a Captain with power armor and Iron Halo. Of course first they will shoot ...

Grenade launchers - 3d3 shots on average 5-6 hits wounding 3+... let’s say six to keep the math simple. So 5 hit (BS2) and on average 3 wound. Let’s say they score 1 wound... four wounds left to go now. Next they fire their axes... 6 shots, 5 hit and 3 wound... assume one goes through for 2 more damage. Now your Captain has 2 wounds left. The Custodians charge and swing with their axes... 12 attacks hitting on 2s so on average 10 hit, that’s 10 hits on average wounding 2s so say 8 go through and 7 wound... Captain makes 3-4 saves, each attack is d3 damage - your Captain is deep sixed. If somehow your Captain survives the axes the Allarus will follow up with their Miscordiea... you probably see where this going.

Your math is off. The grenades do 2.5 wounds, not 3. I showed this in a former post.

If you want to add in the Allarus charging and swinging the Captain then we can do the same for the Bikes. The Bikes will win for sure, is that even in dispute? The Bikes can take Misericordias too even!

Let's add that the Allarus probably CAN'T charge the Captain because he's protected by chaff while the Bikes can literally jump over the chaff to reach him. They're much more likely to charge him than the Allarus.

Now I think the jetbikes are stellar but up against high toughness models with invulnerable saves and possibly feel no pain as well if they don’t get the charge a kill is not guaranteed. You have to clear out all the chaff first and they won’t be able to target characters in the shooting phase like Allarus. So I don’t see a pure jetbike army winning big versus top tier.

Here's a secret: the Allarus and Bikes are about equal even when the Bikes don't charge.

Let's invent a T8 model with a 4++ and FnP Warlord Trait of 5+++. Let's simulate 2 rounds of combat for each:

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 3.33 wounds.
Allarus R2: 3.33 wounds.
Total: 6.66 wounds.

Difference? .73 wounds. A fairly negligible difference. The only time the Allarus have a decent wounds advantage over the Bikes is against T7.

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 4.45 wounds.
Allarus R2: 4.45 wounds.
Total: 8.90 wounds.

Even this isn't huge though. 2.97 wound difference? And to get it you have to give up every other advantage the Bikes provide that I've exhaustively gone over in this thread?

As a game progressed then they will start to shine more and can stick around due to their excellent durability.

The Bikes are literally more durable than the Allarus. They're identical except Bikes are T6 instead of T5.