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Yeah I suggest a detachment such as Vanguard to run your Custodes - I would keep the Vexilla too.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I wouldn't add Custodes of any sort to a mixed detachment. Captains having obsec and +1 inv is too strong.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah I suggest a detachment such as Vanguard to run your Custodes - I would keep the Vexilla too.

Wait you misunderstood, I am planning to make a mainly Custodes army (well with some AM allies in another detachment). I would never mix Custodes with other stuff in a detachment since their bonuses are really good

For your criticism, comment and ridicule here's my list for an upcoming tournament, which now includes Custodes... tweaked this so many times (and need to finish painting the Custodes!) but think this is the list...

Battalion Detachment – Faction ASTRA MILITARUM – Regiment TALLARN

Company Commander [WARLORD. Warlord Trait: Grand Strategist. Relic: Kurov’s Aquila]
Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannon sponsons

Infantry Squad: Flamer, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad: Flamer, Vox-Caster
Infantry Squad: Flamer, Vox-Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad 3 x Mortar
Leman Russ - Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - Gatling Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter Sponsons



Supreme Command Detachment – Faction ADEPTUS CUSTODES

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Hurricane Bolter [Relic: Auric Aquilus]
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Hurricane Bolter
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike, Hurricane Bolter

Vexillus Praetor, Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica


Vanguard Detachment – Faction IMPERIUM

Space Marine Captain, Jump Pack, Combi-plasma, Power Fist
Space Marine Librarian, Jump Pack (24), Boltgun, Force Axe (10) = 122 pts
Knows: Smite, Psychic Fortress, Null Zone

Space Marine Vanguard Veteran Squad: 6 Marines with Jump Packs, 3 with 2x Plasma Pistols, 1 with Plasma Pistol + Power Sword, 1 with Plasma Pistol + Storm Shield, 1 with Thunder Hammer+ Storm Shield
Culexus Assassin
Eversor Assassin




Vexilla is there to give the -1 to hit bubble in case I get 2nd turn... then he is going to try and sprint around advancing every turn to try and keep at least one of the Jetbikes within 6" until he gets killed or close enough to fight someone.

I might pay a CP to deep strike a Shield Captain, mainly to make my opponent worry about deployment.

Plasma vets and Leman Russes give some S8 shooting. I will have to screen them well.

Space Marine libby is a gamble - I know there will be loads of Hive Tyrants and Custodes and Primarchs and stuff... so he's there to hided behind the space marines then fly up close and cast Null Zone. I just wish it went off on a 7 instead of an 8. I expect many CPs will be spent trying to make this cast!

Feel like it's got a fair mix of anti-horde, mobility and anti-tank.

Remove the tanks, give the assassins to the AM detachment and make that your soup detachment. Then select a SM list, get access to their tactics and consider adding a thunderfire cannon instead of the tank. Gets you better stratagems and generic rules.

Nope!

Tallarn bonus is better than anything SM get by a million miles. The SM stratagems are uniformly awful as well, whereas the AM ones are great!

To expand on this... which SM rules would I benefit from? All the marines have FLY so can already fall back and shoot. They are next to a captain so already get rerolls. 6+ FNP is crap for 400 pts of models.

I guess they could be Raven Guard and infiltrate, but it would cost 3CP to infiltrate them all.

Respectfully disagree, especially with Talarn. You're either ambushing two tanks that are going to die, or you're slightly increasing the accuracy of tanks that are going to be charged turn 1-2 anyway, negating the usefulness of the trait.

You benefit more from your mobile, flexible SM units, and a thunderfire cannon would allow you to reduce the movement of mobile targets coming towards you.

You benefit very little from two singular tanks, compared to what you could have otherwise. You cannot screen them with 3x 10 Infantry squads. They're going to die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least I would consider scouts over infantry squads. They're more expensive, but allow you to prevent deep striking units in a much larger area.

You don't need to accept my advise, in the slightest, but that would give you a larger benefit than the infantry squads.

I don't own a thunderfire cannon - so there's that.

Very unlikely to ambush the tanks. I've still never actually used that stratagem. Tallarn is to allow the infantry to move fast and the tanks to move and still shoot at full BS. Cadia would probably be better but all my dudes look like Tallarn now.

You definitely can screen with infantry squads. You're right though - they are going to die. That's pretty much what they are there for - to buy the Lemans a couple of turns of shooting.

My hope is that people are more worried about the mighty golden warriors speeding at them in Jetbikes, and leave the Lemans alone.

We will see

Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.

If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.

The infantry squads are there to screen, and I attempted to use 3x 10 for this very reason, but they're too fragile and don't cover enough forward ground to do the job properly. Scouts are better for a similar investment.

Scouts cover less ground.

As for fragility...

Infantry are 4 PPM, T3, 5+.
Scouts are 11 PPM, T4, 4+.
Scouts with Cloaks are 14 PPM, T4, 4+ (but 2+ in cover).

For all calculations, I'll assume cover, since you can probably finagle it for them. PPH stands for Points Per Hit.

Lasguns-S3, AP0
Infantry take 1/4 wounds per hit, or 1 PPH.
Scouts take 1/9 wounds per hit, or 1.22 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 1/18 wounds per hit, or .78 PPH.

Bolters-S4, AP0
Infantry take 1/3 wounds per hit, or 1.33 PPH.
Scouts take 1/6 wounds per hit, or 1.83 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 1/12 wounds per hit, or 1.17 PPH.

Heavy Bolters-S5, AP0
Infantry take 5/9 wounds per hit, or 2.22 PPH.
Scouts take 1/3 wounds per hit, or 3.67 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 2/9 wounds per hit, or 3.11 PPH.

Plasma-S7/8, AP-3
Infantry take 5/6 wounds per hit, or 3.33 PPH.
Scouts take 25/36 wounds per hit, or 7.64 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 5/9 wounds per hit, or 7.78 PPH.
Do note that you do NOT overcharge against Infantry, making it slightly safer to shoot them. Given the abundance of rerolls, though, not a huge deal.

Scouts scout, my friend. They cover more ground by preventing less deep striking beyond your deployment zone. I'm not implying they're not, stock, equally fragile, I'm just stating they screen better by nature of their ability to actually scout.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Scouts scout, my friend. They cover more ground by preventing less deep striking beyond your deployment zone. I'm not implying they're not, stock, equally fragile, I'm just stating they screen better by nature of their ability to actually scout.

So do Scout Sentinels. In addition, Custodes enjoy being in close combat-let the enemy draw near.

His list isn't a Custodes list. It's an imperial soup list that just happens to run 3 captains and a praetor.

Captains have zero issues getting into combat with their movement.

Yes. Scout Sentinels are entirely valid, but add an extra cost on top of a Battalion, instead of slightly altering one battalion to another.

Another report from last weekend. I played a 1150 + 1150 versus 3000 points of attacker using the planetstrike mission six rules from chapter approved. I ran 3 biker captains, Celestine, and some skitarii / mortar team chaff. First turn all the chaff was dead. I kept 1 biker captain off the table with deepstrike. We end up winning due to biker captains and celestine being tough and mobile and killing 1 easy target unit a turn a piece. Biker captains are great in weird, mission heavy games where mobility and flexibility are rewarded over pure damage output. We tabled the 3000 points of chaos on the bottom of turn 5 with only 1 black templar jump captain, 1 biker captain, and celestine left. Next time I will have a Culexus. I think Culexus is just mandatory in a biker captain list. You need assassin support for Custodes to work, and it is plenty fluffy if anybody gives you grief about soup.

EDIT: mark me down as one for team soup. I love playing just 3 custodes models with the rest of my army. They add a durable and flexible element to an army of static models. Most of the imperial army list are units that stand there and shoot. They park, you throw dice. The best ones (phosphorbots) literally cannot move once you turn them into shoot mode. I am all about throwing 3 biker captains in your imperial army.

I like the AM/Custodes/SM list. SM do have good strategems but I don't know if they are worth it for those units. I would take two Culexus and drop the Eversor.

I agree the combination of the three leads to great things, I'm just of the opinion after hammering away at it for a few weeks that the AM Battalion is less useful than a SM one, especially when you can obtain all you need from them by simply taking a Vanguard with your assassins (which most agree at this point compliment the custodes perfectly) and making a company commander your warlord.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I agree the combination of the three leads to great things, I'm just of the opinion after hammering away at it for a few weeks that the AM Battalion is less useful than a SM one, especially when you can obtain all you need from them by simply taking a Vanguard with your assassins (which most agree at this point compliment the custodes perfectly) and making a company commander your warlord.

Yes. In competitive, space marine scouts are better screens than guardsmen because distance matters more than bodies. Every deepstrike melee threat erases a screen unit a turn no matter what, so 5 scouts further up the board is better than~13 guardsmen within your lines.

Yup, the benefit of the scouts isn't increased durability, it's all about the deep strike denial. Each Scout squad prevents DS in an area roughly 18" deep and 24" wide. Three squads like that prevents almost all DS on the first turn outside the enemy deployment zone. That's a huge plus. Sure, the opponent can kill the scouts and then DS on turn two, but even then you've had a turn to deepen your formation and push you other bubble wrap out. It's still great, tactically speaking.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.

If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.

Hi. Sorry wasn't trying to be defensive... and your opinions are welcomed. I just don't agree with the idea of taking more marines. But that's cool.

Scouts would probably be a good idea. I'd like to get some Scout Sentinels to add to my army - perhaps they will be the next purchase.

My feeling on the Tallarn Infantry Squads is that you can use them for two types of screening...

Because they move 6"+d6" and can still shoot, they are pretty good at rushing forwards to make a screen against things like stealers and that. Footslogging assault. They will die super fast but can push quite far out.

The more common type of screening these days is anti-Fly screen, where you need to clog up the area around what you're protecting so they can't put their big flyer base down. That's harder to do with smaller squads.

So I think AM infantry (at 150 pts for 30) are pretty good. The order you can give that allows them to fall back and shoot helps a bit too.

I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?

Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.

With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.

Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.

 Silentz wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.

If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.

Hi. Sorry wasn't trying to be defensive... and your opinions are welcomed. I just don't agree with the idea of taking more marines. But that's cool.

Totally fine and I respect that response. I equally apologize if my responses appeared to come off rude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:
I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?

Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.

With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.

Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.

8th is a highly, highly aggressive meta. Custodes, specifically when following the "Jam Captains" strat, need to keep them alive as long as possible to maximize their usefulness. Custodes want to be DOING the charging, not being charged. If you can ensure you're getting off the charge you're maintaining the dominant position, and can stooping dive a key unit on the reaction the following turn.

Scouts, by nature, allow for you to control more board position than your opponent, which depending on the meta you're playing in may very well allow you to hold more objectives, score more points, etc than your opponent. It's personal preference.

Guardsmen are good, especially with a mortar, they're simply a more defensive build than scouts, which are implying you're going to be taking a more direct, brute force application.

Note that if you rely on units like Scout Sentinals to push back deepstrikers I can deploy a unit of SM scouts 9" away from your DZ and deny this, opening the way for some form of DS shenanigan (assuming I get first turn)

That's what makes SM Scouts so good. They are one of the few (only?) units that infiltrate during the deployment step instead of 'before the first turn'.

I typically use one scout squad as bait. To me you don't want to totally shut down an opponent's deep strike locations since Custodes excel the most in melee... you want to cunningly offer them locations to drop that are actually best for you to then counter assault.

Spartacus wrote:
I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?

Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.

With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.

Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.

3d6 charges from bloodletters, obliterator bombs, 3d6 slamguinius charges, berserker deepstrikes/infiltrates, tau commander suit bombs, there are lots of things that if they can deepstrike in range of your custodes will kill them no matter what. Only scouts space that deepstrike out beyond 18" and deny the shooting ones a turn to hit your bikers. And scouts also make it so the melee ones can't possible be in range even with warptime.

The new thing people are doing now is running 1 9man scout squad since it can deny a full 24" on your first drop. The board control is better than survivability.

You have to be very careful versus Slamaguinius as he can easily charge over a screen.

Which is why I bring my own Slamguinius.

Slamaguinis is the man!

 Primark G wrote:
Slamaguinis is the man!

I'm trying to fit one in my list now, but I can't free up enough points to change the Power Fist to a Thunder Hammer so his potential is reduced.

 Ordana wrote:
Note that if you rely on units like Scout Sentinals to push back deepstrikers I can deploy a unit of SM scouts 9" away from your DZ and deny this, opening the way for some form of DS shenanigan (assuming I get first turn)

That's what makes SM Scouts so good. They are one of the few (only?) units that infiltrate during the deployment step instead of 'before the first turn'.

Nurglings too. Surprises me that you don't see more of them.

Nurglings were nerfed every so slightly index to codex, and it was enough for people to cut back on them.

Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.

In no way am I going to deviate from that.

Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.

I think ratlings are a potentially useful alternative to scouts. They aren't as good, but they are cheaper (slightly) and they have guns that might sometimes accomplish something.

As an elite choice, ratlings fit quite nicely in a vanguard detachment. This might mean that you can build a soup detachment containing something like Celestine, plus assorted units of ratlings and assassins.

I have this theory that ratlings are more useful than scouts when screens aren't needed. They can be sat in cover by an objective in your deployment zone and will occasionally kill something - unlike the scouts.

Here's my vague idea of what a list with ratlings in might look like. I've gone for my preferred approach of having as many bodies on the board as possible - though of course with a Custodes army that still isn't all that many. I'd rather that the vexilla guy had an axe but I can't seem to spare the point required, and actually I've got 15 guard models plus the FW event captain, so this fits my models perfectly.

Custodes Battalion.
Shield Captain with Axe 124
Shield Captain on (relic) bike 160
5 Guards with spears 260
5 Guards with spears 260
4 Guards with spears 208
Vexillus Magnifica with Spear 112
5 Bikes 450

Soup Vanguard
Celestine with two friends 250
Culexus 85
5 Ratlings 45
5 Ratlings 45