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karandrasss wrote:
Ever kill Mortarion or Magnus with pure Custodes? How?

Melee and lucky dice rolls I'd guess, you're going to need to accept that they'll inflict losses.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.

Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.

KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.

The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.

Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?

The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)

So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.

Lol, that's the same as saying SC is always better if you roll mostly 5 on the dice.

Look it really just comes down to this: SC gives you 33% damage reduction. RM gives you 17.5% less attacks hitting you, which could be as small as 2 extra wounds, or as large as 12 extra wounds.

If your opponent is mostly using 1 and 2 damage weaponry, SC will do better. If they are using 3-6 damage weaponry, RM is better.

 Eihnlazer wrote:


RM gives you 17.5% less attacks hitting you,

No thats not how the maths works, greyknight12's post laid it out.

If you're getting shot at by enemies with relatively poor Ballistic skill like IG and Tau, it becomes more preferable to have a -1 to hit than the FNP, doesn't matter if those shots do multiple damage or not.

-1 to hit for a BS 4+ opponent will be 1/3rd fewer dice results which result in a hit (i.e. from [4, 5 and 6] to just [5 and 6]), so 1/3rd less damage, not 1/6th.

Also, the maths doesn't take into account the extra benefits of having negative hit modifiers. Things like how rerolls work (a Guilliman bubble suddenly becomes a whole lot less scary), and the added risk of overheating with plasma. Also makes it impossible to use the tesla weapon 'extra hits' mechanic.

Mathammer bros, how many banana bois does it take to kill a daemon primarch?

karandrasss wrote:
Mathammer bros, how many banana bois does it take to kill a daemon primarch?

A unit of 3 Bikers, on average, cause 6.914 Damage when able to fully fire and then charge Mortarion.

A unit of 3 Terminators, on average, cause 7.129 damage when able to fully fire and then charge Mortarion.

This is with a Captain nearby and no used stratagems. Take that for what you will.

No strategem is going to help the bikers and the termies (which I assume have axes, the extra AP strategem being worthless against invuln saves), correct?

So it'll take roughly 700pts to kill Mortarion. Yikes.

Been in two minds about whether to start a Custodes or All-dreadnought army. While messing around with lists I wondered whether using a grey Knights vanguard detachment would be worth while in helping to cover up our psychic and long range anti tank weaknesses as stand ins for the custodes own dreadnoughts. Not really played any psychic heavy armies so not sure how they would fair.

Thinking a Grandmaster nemesis-dreadknight, with either 3 doomglaives or 3 Lascannon/missle venerable dreads. In both cases they have the WS/BS of 2 to match other custodes, the doomglaives could use gate to help their mobility and the glaive would suit the halberd aesthetic of the custodes but not sure the heavy psycannon would have enough of the heavy impact on armoured targets to make them worthwhile, while the venerable dreadnoughts could use astral aim to make up for their lack of mobility but gunline seems kind of wrong with custodes for some reason.

karandrasss wrote:
No strategem is going to help the bikers and the termies (which I assume have axes, the extra AP strategem being worthless against invuln saves), correct?

So it'll take roughly 700pts to kill Mortarion. Yikes.

Yikes? I mean, are other armies killing him in less, besides Eldar w/ Reapers? Genuinely curious, because that seems completed fair that 700pts of Bikes could OHKO Morty in a turn, considering he isn't going to be really doing anything on OW or hitting them back, if successful.

Alright, so I have a 1000 Point game coming up, and I’m working on a list (pretty difficult to stay away from the 10 bike list). This is what I have so far, C&C would be appreciated.


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [52 PL, 986pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [13 PL, 252pts]
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought (Beta) [13 PL, 245pts]: Achillus Dreadspear, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 114pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

++ Total: [52 PL, 986pts] ++

Wait... I want to doublecheck the Terminator vs. Bikers math against Daemon Primarchs.

Assume captain for everything.

Terminators get 6 shots with Axes and 6 with grenades, then 12 swings with S8 AP-2 Dd3 Axes.
That's 35/6 hits with both axe shots and grenades, for 35/18 wounds, for 35/36 failed saves, for 70/36+35/36 damage, or 2.92.
Then, the axes get 35/3 hits, 70/9 wounds, 35/9 unsaved, and 70/9 damage, for 7.78.
That is 10.70 damage total from 3 Terminators against Magnus (slightly less against Mortarion, because DR).

Bikes get 12 Lance swings and 36 bolter shots, for 35 hits, 35/3 wounds, 35/9 unsaved, or 3.89 damage.
Then, the lances get 35/3 hits, 175/27 wounds, 175/54 unsaved, and 175/27 damage, for 6.48.
That is 10.37 damage total from 3 Bikers against Magnus (slightly less against Mortarion, because DR).

With DR, the totals are:

Terminators deal 7.13
Bikers deal 6.91

I think we rounded slightly different, but yeah, that seems about right. Carry on.

I've received approval from the resident math nerd!

KampfKrote wrote:
Alright, so I have a 1000 Point game coming up, and I’m working on a list (pretty difficult to stay away from the 10 bike list). This is what I have so far, C&C would be appreciated.


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [52 PL, 986pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [13 PL, 252pts]
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought (Beta) [13 PL, 245pts]: Achillus Dreadspear, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 114pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

++ Total: [52 PL, 986pts] ++

Looks solid enough to me - what will you be up against?

I'll be playing Tyranids again. I'm also working on finding something "balanced" to play in an upcoming escalation league that is starting at 25PL. I came up with a few ideas. My first list is:

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia Superior Creation, Warlord

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

Shield-Captain [7 PL, 138pts]: Misericordia, Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

Everything has a 3++, obviously the Shield-Captain is "filler", but he will be nasty on his own as well.

My other thought was just running a Patrol Detachment of Trajann Valoris and a unit of 3 Vertus Praetors. I am currently unsure of which I am more drawn towards, but I have a while to decide. If any of you have a cool idea, I would be very interested to see it.

Sorry for replying to my own post, but I've put together a Custodes force with a Grey knight vanguard detachment for Dreads, wouldn't mind some feedback on optimization. I know the custodian squads are poor but it doesn't feel like a custodes list with out them and also need the CP from the battalion.



++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Grey Knights) [41 PL, 835pts] ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 280pts]: Dreadfist, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [62 PL, 1164pts] ++

+ HQ +

Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor [8 PL, 144pts]: Castellan Axe

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter (not sure whether to do the usual and give this guy the Auric Aquila or for novelties sake give the Allarus the Praetorian for tag team shennanigans with the NKDGM)

+ Elites +

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 122pts]: Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [15 PL, 270pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 156pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 156pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 156pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

++ Total: [103 PL, 1999pts] ++

I'd use "from the golden light them come" to deep strike 1 squad of custodians with the Allarus captain, the other two would remain back field with the Praetor to look after the dreadnoughts which seems a little wasteful but not sure how to better utilize them. As for the remaining stratagem points I'm considering victor of the blood games on the two captains and two rounds of psychic onslaught for the NDKGM, but then wisdom of the ancients, shoulder the mantle and Piercing strike look useful too.
Would like to use the doomglaives as I think they would look the part, but just not sure if a few heavy psycannons is sufficient anti-tank, though I supposed I could gate 1 each round with the rest walking up with the custodians till they get their turn.

Mixing on elite army with another elite army is a risky move. I worry you lack the CP and bodies to sustain heavy fire.

yeah IMHO custodes work best with Guard. flood the battlefield with guard and have a fair bit of points left to run a custodes detachment

It could work... those dreads will do some heavy work.

How are your games going? Any luck with pure Custodes? Is soup a necessary evil?

I have been playing in a couple leagues and am ranked at the bottom of the first tier. I run Custodes with SM. I came in third place recently at a tourney with pure Custodes. I like the mix better since SM fill gaps.

Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong

karandrasss wrote:
How are your games going? Any luck with pure Custodes? Is soup a necessary evil?

If you want top competitive, soup is necessary. Anything less and you should manage just fine as a pure force!

Personally, I've been putting AdMech with mine and cleaning house with them.

stratigo wrote:
Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong

How much terrain do you play on? Massed firepower - terrain = dead banana bois for sure.

Where I play we use a lot... like 25%+ at least with several large pieces of LoS blocking.

We use standard NOVA setup here, which you can see in their primer (pg. 4):

https://novaopen.sharepoint.com/:w:/r/_layouts/15/WopiFrame.aspx?sourcedoc=%7B5a5816bb-1575-41a9-b3da-0506415d62ae%7D&action=view

 Primark G wrote:
I have been playing in a couple leagues and am ranked at the bottom of the first tier. I run Custodes with SM. I came in third place recently at a tourney with pure Custodes. I like the mix better since SM fill gaps.

I would love to see your pure Custodes and Custodes/SM lists if you’re willing to share them.

Marneus
Tiggy

Intercessor squad X2
Scout squad

Inceptor squad (plasma)

Hellblasters (standard incinerator)


Culexus

Shield Captain on Dawneagle (3++)

Allarus (axes)
Wardens (axes)
Vexilla (5++)

karandrasss wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong

How much terrain do you play on? Massed firepower - terrain = dead banana bois for sure.

Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little

Just played a tau army that tabled me in 2 turns of mass firepower. High yield missile pods are one of the perfect counters to custodes

I am looking forward to playing against the new Tau - Necrons too.

My current list is more BA than custodies, but it is preforming quite well.


Supreme Command- Custodes

5x biker captains/w misercorda
One with Aquila relic

Battalion- Blood Angels

lemartes
Luitenant/w jump pack, inferno pistol, thunder hammer, Veratis Vitae

3x scout squad

14 man DC/w jumpacks, chainswords, and bolters. 3x inferno pistol, 1 powersword
13 man DC same as above

Battalion- Astra militarum Valhallan

Company commander/w plasma pistol Warlord trait- command points spent back on a 5+
Company commander/w plasma pistol Kurov's Aquilla

3x infantry squads



The CP generation is real and lets me do whatever I need. Usually give the luitenant Death visions and the Aquilla captain Victors of the Blood games.

Looks like 1 list made AdeptiCon top 16 with Custodes.

It was an IG Brigade, Blood Angels Battalion, and a Supreme Command of 4 Shield Caps on Jetbikes.