Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Primark G, still waiting on your math.

Okay... I got a call from a client and won't be back in my office until next week.

 Primark G wrote:
Okay... I got a call from a client and won't be back in my office until next week.

Alright. I'll do the math, then-what was the situation exactly that needs math doing?

If you scroll back all the specifications are there in my post.

Just double checking, 3 Allarus+Trajann vs. a Baneblade, and then 3 Praetors+Captain on Dawneagle vs. the same? You didn't give exact numbers, so I'm assuming min squads.

That is correct and I did one round of melee (you can assume charging). Ratio is points per wound.

Allarus and Trajann are 502 points.
Praetors and Dawneagle Captain are 430.

NOTE! Doing the math here has made me realize I made a minor mistake in my last vs. Baneblade math-I goofed on the Allarus shooting. Since I used Anydice for the percentages, though, those should still be accurate.

Allarus have 6 Axe shots and 6 Grenade shots, Trajann has 2 shots.
35/6 hits from Axes and Grenades, 35/18 hits from Trajann.
245/216 wounds from Axes and Grenades, 245/324 wounds from Trajann.
245/432 unsaved wounds from Axes, 1,225/1,944 unsaved wounds from Grenades, and 245/648 unsaved wounds from Trajann.
Total shooting damage? (245/432+245/648)*2+1,225/1,944=(.57+.38)*2+.63=2.53 damage.
In close combat, there are 12 attacks at S8 and 5 at S10.
35/3 Axe hits, and 175/36 Trajann hits.
245/36 Axe wounds, and 1,225/324 Trajann wounds.
245/54 unsaved Axe wounds, and 6,125/1,944 unsaved Trajann wounds.
Total CC damage? (245/54+6,125/1,944)*2=(4.54+3.15)*2=15.38 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
17.91, or 28.03 points per wound.

Praetors have 48 bolter shots.
140/3 hits.
70/9 wounds.
70/27 unsaved wounds.
Total shooting damage? 70/27=2.59 damage.
In close combat, there are 17 attacks at S6, rerolling wounds.
595/36 hits.
2,975/324 wounds.
14,875/1,944 unsaved wounds.
Total CC damage? (14,875/1,944)*2=(7.65)*2=15.30 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
17.89, or 24.04 points per wound.

About a 15% improvement in damage done per point. And, despite being 72 points cheaper, they output basically the same amount of damage.

As for the note above, actual shooting damage for the Allarus and Trajann should do 1.13 from Axes, .95 from Grenades, and .76 from Trajann, for 2.84. A difference of 1.74 damage, for 19.08 damage total. Still significantly behind the Praetors.

Edit: Add .25 to Trajann's CC damage, for the Misiericordia.

That makes the total for Trajann and Allarus 18.16, for 27.64 points per wound.

The difference is still right about 15%.

I didn't include any shooting. 4 wounds difference is a wash.

 Primark G wrote:
I didn't include any shooting.

Why not?

But, without shooting, it's 15.38 from Allarus and Trajann vs. 15.30 from Praetors and Captain.

32.64 points per wound from Allarus.
28.10 points per wound from Praetors.
Again, about a 15% difference.

I was just interested in melee.

 Primark G wrote:
I was just interested in melee.

It doesn't make much of a difference. 15% difference, about.

Which means this:

 Primark G wrote:
I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.

I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.

Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.

Is flat out wrong.

That is what really matters most to you - to tell someone else they are wrong.

Anyways I will check my calculations next week... I am not bothered by you.

 Primark G wrote:
That is what really matters most to you - to tell someone else they are wrong.

Anyways I will check my calculations next week... I am not bothered by you.

No, what matters to me is avoiding misinformation. Which you seem to peddle quite frequently.

I am not misleading but you go out of your way to make it seem so... like how originally you added an extra Vertus Praetor to boost their results.

My results were 28.03 and 24.04 and you don't even know how I calculated my results. Lol!

 Primark G wrote:
I am not misleading but you go out of your way to make it seem so... like how originally you added an extra Vertus Praetor to boost their results.

I quoted the post where you gave faulty math. You then proceeded to avoid actually showing your math, which would have to have significant errors, for quite a while, until I did the math for you (which took less than ten minutes, so you easily could've redone the math yourself had you actually cared) and showed that were, objectively speaking, giving false information.

Saying Allarus are better than Praetors is not objectively false, or at least, cannot be proven objectively false in total, due to the ridiculous number of factors, but enough has been shown that makes that doubtful. A single squad of Allarus might be decent to include, because they DO have various good stratagems, but whereas you'd be foolish to build an army of nothing but Allarus, you could build an army of nothing but Praetors and do pretty okay. Not high-level competitive, but nothing pure Custodes is that.

Edit: I see you added to your post.

I added an extra Vertus Praetor to make the points as close to equal as possible-which is why I then added Misericordias to the Allarus to make up the small gap, as much as able to. Which, speaking of which, I actually DID forget to add Trajann's Misiericordia. I'll edit the post to fix that, because that is 100% my bad.

Edit II: Added the Misiericrodia, it made very little difference.

I can't show the math because I am out of my office today - are you calling me a liar?

I have never said Allarus are better but often you imply or say directly that I do. My point has always been that they are a good unit and that they work for me. I feel like you cannot let it ever ride and will not stop until I say Allarus are not good. They have done great for me so far... sorry if you don't like it then may consider hitting the IGNORE button and move along.

 Primark G wrote:
I can't show the math because I am out of my office today - are you calling me a liar?

I have never said Allarus are better but often you imply or say directly that I do. My point has always been that they are a good unit and that they work for me. I feel like you cannot let it ever ride and will not stop until I say Allarus are not good. They have done great for me so far... sorry if you don't like it then may consider hitting the IGNORE button and move along.

I'm saying you're either lying OR your math was wrong. My math has been wrong too-I acknowledged that and added corrections. There's nothing wrong with making a mistake, but sticking to your math when it was shown wrong is arguing dishonestly. And, again, doing the math does not take long-you can easily redo it from home.

Is my math wrong? After the correction of adding the Misiericordia, is it wrong? Because if it is NOT wrong, then yours is. And if it is wrong, please show where, so I can fix it.

And you pretty clearly imply that Allarus are the superior unit. But, if I've been reading you wrong, then clear the air now-which is the superior unit? Allarus or Praetors? And by what degree are we talking?

I have never said they are superior nor have I ever meant to imply it... to me neither is overall superior - they both have their strengths. Some here are "BIKES FOR DAYS!" which is fine but any time I mention Allarus this gets thrown in my face every time. I think the bikes are the easiest to play for sure.

This has quickly become unproductive. Can we clean it up before mods get involved? Seen a few too many Tactics threads devolve like this before.

Not a problem here.

 Primark G wrote:
Not a problem here.

Think a lot of the problem comes from your unsubstantiated claims which you are constantly making excuses not to post, while contesting other peoples posted math.

If you want to have a discussion about why X is good in Y situation over Z thats fine, but stop claiming X is better than Z without backing up why.

I’ve given many examples where they shine and how I use them in this thread. You are feeding the fire.

Primark has a postion which has been well-established. Other people disagree with him. The math has been done, which shows that the bikes output more damage per point (or cost less points to do the same damage)

Let’s not beat a dead horse.

What’s much more significant in my opinion is that the Allarus and bikes have a different amount of wounds (4) than base Custodes (3). I think it’s important to have wound diversity, as that makes it difficult for your opponent to not waste damage with multi-damage weaponry.

Of course, as I say this, I have a pure bikes list with guard and assassin support.

One question I’m wondering is whether I should be taking a Culexus and a callidus or two Culexus (or maybe I can make some points to take all 3). I’ve played with the callidus and I love what she does to CP, but the Culexus is just stupid. Except against reapers. When is that FAQ coming again?

I’d do 2 culexus, they are the most survivable assasin by far and give you psychic resistance, which you need anyway. With 2 spread out you could probably get away with only the denial warlord trait or even no psyker support at all for a lot of lists.

Also, the 4 wounds is huge because weapons do 1, 2, or a multiple of 3 for damage. While you can find some cheap 3 dmg weapons, D6 are much more rare and more importantly, deal random damage. Which means even something like a lascannon will fail to one-shot a biker or terminator 50% of the time, and because they’re rocking a 4++ it’s not unreasonable that one of these models could absorb 4 lascannon/melta WOUNDS before he dies.

Itll be interesting to see if the Forge World terminators get rules - 3++ terminators rocking power fists and such would be pretty mean. Might be whats needed to put Termies over bikes.

As for now, do you guys think running a batallion for pure Custodes is worth it, or would it be better to run Outrider and Vanguard detachments to get Bikes/Termies? Sure, less command points, but no Custodian Guard tax.

Custodian Guard are reasonable, and they can be hard to kill, making them good at sitting on objectives. I have taken Geoff’s list from AdeptiCon and updated it a bit to fit my liking a bit more. Not sure if it’s even good, but I’ll test it out soon enough. Here is is:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [69 PL, 1322pts] ++

Open the Vaults (1 Relic)

+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Auric Aquilis, Salvo Launcher
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Salvo Launcher
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: Salvo Launcher

+ Troops +
Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 156pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 156pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

+ Fast Attack +
Vertus Praetors [15 PL, 270pts]
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [27 PL, 396pts] ++

Regimental Doctrine: Cadian

+ HQ +
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +
Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [14 PL, 235pts] ++

+ HQ +
Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier

+ Elites +
Callidus Assassin [5 PL, 80pts]
Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]
Eversor Assassin [4 PL, 70pts]
++ Total: [112 PL, 1999pts] ++

 Crazyterran wrote:
Itll be interesting to see if the Forge World terminators get rules - 3++ terminators rocking power fists and such would be pretty mean. Might be whats needed to put Termies over bikes.

As for now, do you guys think running a batallion for pure Custodes is worth it, or would it be better to run Outrider and Vanguard detachments to get Bikes/Termies? Sure, less command points, but no Custodian Guard tax.

Custodian Guard don't really work against a strong opponent unless you Stratagem deepstrike a big squad of 'em I find. They can be ignored for a few turns while they advance which is no good if the game is decided by then.

Clearly you can't deepstrike with 3 squads in a battalion. Part of the reason pure Custodes will always struggle as things are. Maybe a huge blob of 20+ Guard might be fun?

 Ordana wrote:

Nope. The initial top 16 posts were wrong. Geoff "Incontrol"Robinson made top 8 with a Custodes army.

https://miniheadquarters.com/tournaments/details/adepticon-singles-2018-03-22-warhammer-40k-8th-edition
https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/y9prvqwk?round=5

OK, let's see what we have here:
1. Bike spam, check.
2. IG Battalion with mortar spam, check.
3. Assassins, check.

It is not a "Custodes army" it is a classical Imperial Soup army with Custodes as it's main part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KampfKrote wrote:

+ Heavy Support +
Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

You can try Basilisks of course, but I'm not very impressed with them. I play IG as my main army and tried to utilise Basilisks (I like them aesthetically) but their performance in quite underwhelming. LRs with their ability to shoot twice easily outshine Basilisks in almost every possible situation.

I like the Culexus for the anti psy which is sorely needed for Custodes plus if you play them right (e.g. keep the away from enemy flamers) that are very survivable.

AstraVlad wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Nope. The initial top 16 posts were wrong. Geoff "Incontrol"Robinson made top 8 with a Custodes army.

https://miniheadquarters.com/tournaments/details/adepticon-singles-2018-03-22-warhammer-40k-8th-edition
https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/y9prvqwk?round=5

OK, let's see what we have here:
1. Bike spam, check.
2. IG Battalion with mortar spam, check.
3. Assassins, check.

It is not a "Custodes army" it is a classical Imperial Soup army with Custodes as it's main part.

I would bet you that with the current codex you will never see a more 'Custodes' army in the top 50? of a tournament the size of Adepticon then what Geoff brought. The army as a stand-alone will not function at a high level.
(FW might change that once we get the full rules but then it probably means the FW stuff is broken OP).