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Skhmt wrote:
Are Wardens ever a viable choice, or do Allarus terminators always do better?

Wardens are slightly less durable (one less wound but they gain 6+++), are forced to take a Misericordia, are strictly worse in shooting, and don't have a free teleporter. Allarus terminators also have access to three unique stratagems. But they also cost just 25 pts more (88 vs 63) for an apples to apples comparison, both with axes and knives. While this seems like far more points, it's about the same cost per wound (22 vs 21 points per wound), and you double shooting out put for ~33% point increase.

I think someone did the math on it earlier, and if I remember right the wardens do more damage in CC because you get more attacks per point. So if you want to spam axes wardens may be for you, however you hit on their big weakness: mobility. You can teleport them in...but that costs CP. Additionally the terminators have access to more useful strategems. So I’d say it’s probably a wash between them.

For tournaments or list consrruction using and recommending the most efficient choices is the best way to go. If someone builds a list with Allarus or pure custodes and wants the best way to field them, thats a good time to bring it up.

Recommending Allarus for Tournament lists would be like recommending Assault Marines when a thread is talking about the most efficient Raven Guard alpha strike list. As ive said before, I love me some Termies, I own a lot of different types, but...

Im holding out hope the FW versions end up being good whenever they get around to 8th ed rules for them. They should have a 3++ in a Custodes detachment since they are in Cataphractii, which should hopefully help.

I'm hoping the Allarus end up getting a native 4++, but if not I'll settle for FW versions with it (plus that dreadnought with the storm shield). Custodes need to be able to take something better than a 4++ other than shield captains.

Native 4++ would make them great.

I run both Wardens and Allarus and use a CP to deep strike the Wardens. They end up practically having the same survivablilty due to the Wardens’ FNP. The grenade launchers for the Allarus are nice since they have the strategem to stop overwatch which is really good versus things like melta and the strategem to deep strike off the Vexilla means they can charge the turn they arrive. If I was to only run I’d pick the Allarus.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I'm hoping the Allarus end up getting a native 4++, but if not I'll settle for FW versions with it (plus that dreadnought with the storm shield). Custodes need to be able to take something better than a 4++ other than shield captains.

Vexilla and Custodes Guard can take Storm Shields.

But yeah a native 4++ would be great.




On a different note, two things I'm wondering about. If Custodes are supposed to be individual fighters, why don't all squads have that Allarus ability to split into individuals, or alternatively why don't they just act like tank squads, where you buy them like squads but they act like individuals after the game starts?

Also if Custodes are supposed to have the best equipment, why don't they have kraken or vengeance or hellfire rounds for their guns? Can't 30k Custodes replace the bolter on their spears with a melta or plasma or something?

Balance, I'd wager.

We'll see if the addition of FW eventually allows us to take the different spear ammo types.

At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?

Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?

What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?

Skhmt wrote:
At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?

Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?

What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?

Tournaments usually have an order of operations in their packets. NOVA style ones I believe you pick relics in list selection before you know what you're up against but you CAN pick a warlord trait based on your opponent.

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?

Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?

What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?

Tournaments usually have an order of operations in their packets. NOVA style ones I believe you pick relics in list selection before you know what you're up against but you CAN pick a warlord trait based on your opponent.

Well that's good, since Auric is such a good relic either way.

Was considering running a Vexilla Magnifica to allow deny the witch flexibility via CP and Open the Vaults along with changing the Warlord trait for two deny the witches. That helps a lot vs psykers and also doesn't provide an attack surface for their deny the witch or anti-psyker abilities. And as an added benefit, they aren't wasted points as you can switch Warlord trait and just use the standard Vexilla Magnifica.

I am think about buying a Shadowsword for my Custodes it would be a great addition IMO . But i really want to play pure Custodes so i am hoping for the FW rules to come out but even then if the Grav Tank doesn't get a big points drop it probably can't compete with the Shadowsword.

How do you get rid off tank with your AC? other than attacking in CC?

 nordsturmking wrote:
I am think about buying a Shadowsword for my Custodes it would be a great addition IMO . But i really want to play pure Custodes so i am hoping for the FW rules to come out but even then if the Grav Tank doesn't get a big points drop it probably can't compete with the Shadowsword.

How do you get rid off tank with your AC? other than attacking in CC?

For pure Custodes I usually drown it in Hurricane Bolter shots or use a Caladius. Otherwise, allies.

How to get rid of a tank? Stick some bikes in combat with it.

But yeah, I think a shadowsword would be great


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does a punisher tank commander fare?
Am thinking of fielding one for some nice anti infantry and durable kurovs Aquila.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does a punisher tank commander fare?
Am thinking of fielding one for some nice anti infantry and durable kurovs Aquila.

The most durable Aquila holder is a Company Commander sitting behind a LOS-blocking terrain somewhere in your backfield while giving orders to mortar teams. Tank Commanders can be targeted and need LOS to shoot so a decent army will be able to kill any of them turn 1.

As for Punisher I really do not feel that Custodes need more anti-infantry shooting, 'cause Hurricanes are great in this role. I would take LRBT commanders instead. And that "s" really matters: when you are going to take an IG unit always try to take it in multiples -- redundancy and volume of fire are what makes IG powerful.

If you charge a tank with bikes they can be counter assaulted the next turn by say another tank which then limits their movement and they will not be able to assault another unit.

 Primark G wrote:
If you charge a tank with bikes they can be counter assaulted the next turn by say another tank which then limits their movement and they will not be able to assault another unit.

It's one of the most ridiculous tactics I've ever heard about. If we do not think "Rhino" while saying "tank" of course, 'cause a real tank needs to do as much shooting as possible (including overwatch), not to waste a turn in useless CC. The only exception here is Superheavy tanks that can kick some arse indeed and are able to shoot out of CC.

The ETC channel released a tactica video recently and said the same.

Did they mean Leman Russ or Rhino?

Because a Rhino, sure, you're losing a stormbolter or two.

A Leman Russ loses a LOT MORE, though.

Can three jetbikes kill a Rhino when not charging? Remember the Razorwing.

If only bikes didn't have Fly and simply move out of combat and Hurricane bolter something.

Its worse then also being able to charge, ofcourse but your hardly taken out of the game by a Rhino.

 Primark G wrote:
Can three jetbikes kill a Rhino when not charging? Remember the Razorwing.

No-and no one is saying it's a bad idea to charge a RHINO into CC with Custodes. Yes, it'll get wrecked in...

11/((35/36)*(1/3)*(5/6)*2*12)=a little under 2 rounds of combat.

But it'll tie them up for a little, and that's valuable.

We're saying it's a bad idea to charge a proper Main Battle Tank into CC with Custodes. A Leman Russ lasts about as long as a Rhino does, but loses a LOT more shooting.

Stopping them from charging effectively takes them out of the game for two turns.

 Primark G wrote:
Stopping them from charging effectively takes them out of the game for two turns.

It takes them out of charging for a turn. They can still whack you with S6 AP-3 Dd3 spears, or fall back and shoot something. Hell, they can fall back up a building or something, making it impossible for a tank to assault them, and be free to charge next turn.

I fail to see TWO turns. It prevents them charging one turn, in all probability.

Now, if they charged a tank into, say, some Allarus, they, of course, cannot fall back and shoot. And, with only a 6" move, they might very well still be in range to get charged again by the same tank.

Let's add another check on the list of why bikes are better than terminators.

It will be ignored, but in glad we've detailed the nth reason why.

I said effectively.

 Primark G wrote:
I said effectively.

You said TWO turns. That's what I'm objecting to. I'll agree that, in most cases, Hurricane Bolters are not as effective as Spears on the charge, and CERTAINLY less effective than using both.

But, here's the thing-it works for ONE turn.

If you're using a Rhino. one of two situations happen:

1) You charge the Rhino in.They half-kill it in CC. On their turn, they fall back to a place you cannot charge them, shoot something, and then their next turn, move, shoot, AND charge. You denied a charge for ONE turn.

2) You charge the Rhino in.They half-kill it in CC. On their turn, they stay in combat, and finish it off. Then, next turn, they move, shoot, AND charge. You denied a charge for ONE turn.

Now, in scenario two, you could PROBABLY feed another Rhino in if you have one. But that's two Rhinos-one per turn.

One rhino can effectively neuter a bike squad. What if there are two rhinos? I know jetbikes ATS but maybe just maybe they have a weakness.

 Primark G wrote:
One rhino can effectively neuter a bike squad. What if there are two rhinos? I know jetbikes ATS but maybe just maybe they have a weakness.

Then you can hit two squads, if the Custodes player positioned poorly. Or you can put both into one squad, making them possibly split their attacks, or just Fly out and shoot something else.

And I don't think anyone was saying "Custodes Bikers are the best unit in THE ENTIRE GAME, bar none-they are top-tier competitive and anyone not taking them is shooting themselves in the foot". What was more said was "Custodes Bikers are the best unit in THE ENTIRE CODEX."

Because, this weakness you've found in Bikers? Is not only present in literally every unit in the 'Dex, it's actually WORSE. (With the Exception of DE Captains, and the grav-tanks.) Because they can't Fly out and shoot-they're stuck doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than moving if they fall back, or staying in CC.

Using a Rhino to engage a dangerous unit and force it to Fall Back or kill the Rhino is a good tactic. It's just not a new one.

Ehh...... I had 2 biker captains one shot a plaugeburst crawler that was full health in one round. Granted they charged it........

I think a squad of 5 regular guys can easily kill a rhino.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ehh...... I had 2 biker captains one shot a plaugeburst crawler that was full health in one round. Granted they charged it........

I think a squad of 5 regular guys can easily kill a rhino.

Math says...

10.8 wounds off the charge. More on it, so if you get charged, you stand a good chance of killing it.

Anydice says...

You've got a little under a 50/50 shot of killing it.