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 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Best thing GW could do is outsource their rules development for these skirmish games. Shadow war's rules were some of the worst skirmish rules I've played, and GW really needs to try to market these games outside of the bubble of GW fans. I've just noticed so many willing to accept subpar rules because the nostalgia factor is high.

As a gamer first, I would love actually playable rules that could compete with other skirmish systems.

Yep, just take a look to their main skirmish game Necromunda. GW has proven it again and again that they don´t give a damn about their rules. I can´t understand why people are so hyped about this new game because the rules will be either shallow or full of mistakes.

Honestly, for me it's just that I want a skirmish game like Necromunda, but with main 40k factions (the Necromunda gangs are great, but not the stuff I love about 40k). I've no time to invest in setting up complete armies (and I can't choose just one army, there's too many I like one way or another), so a chance at an official 40k game where I can build a small force of the models I like, is good enough for me. Of course I hope for good rules (to me, that means technically simple, with lots of room for narrative, but I understand opinions on that can vary), but that's really not the main factor here - I rarely play anything outside of Shadespire anyway (and that's one where the rules are excellent).

Why don´t you try to get your hands on the Shadowwar Armageddon ruleset? It will be cheaper than to invest in the new Kill Team stuff.

Because Shadow War is a really weak game with pathetically tiny army lists.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
One of my largest worries, though, is Kill Team being released like Necromunda. There's no information so far about how many warband lists are actually in the rulebook, so we still might be seeing all the available faction dribbled out in seperate publications over months with 'additional rules' to sustain cash flow. So a player wanting an Orc Kill Team might have to wait 6 months after the main game comes out to even get their rules.

The main reason why Necromunda rules are released that way is that they don't want to release the rules before the models are ready and that doesn't apply here.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Best thing GW could do is outsource their rules development for these skirmish games. Shadow war's rules were some of the worst skirmish rules I've played, and GW really needs to try to market these games outside of the bubble of GW fans. I've just noticed so many willing to accept subpar rules because the nostalgia factor is high.

As a gamer first, I would love actually playable rules that could compete with other skirmish systems.

Yep, just take a look to their main skirmish game Necromunda. GW has proven it again and again that they don´t give a damn about their rules. I can´t understand why people are so hyped about this new game because the rules will be either shallow or full of mistakes.

Honestly, for me it's just that I want a skirmish game like Necromunda, but with main 40k factions (the Necromunda gangs are great, but not the stuff I love about 40k). I've no time to invest in setting up complete armies (and I can't choose just one army, there's too many I like one way or another), so a chance at an official 40k game where I can build a small force of the models I like, is good enough for me. Of course I hope for good rules (to me, that means technically simple, with lots of room for narrative, but I understand opinions on that can vary), but that's really not the main factor here - I rarely play anything outside of Shadespire anyway (and that's one where the rules are excellent).

Why don´t you try to get your hands on the Shadowwar Armageddon ruleset? It will be cheaper than to invest in the new Kill Team stuff.

Got it already, and it scratches that itch, but I think it could be more, if you know what I mean? I haven't bought into main 40k rules for years, so I do have some money I could burn on Kill Team (and, unrelated to the rules, but if what's in the video is also what's in the box set - Skitarii, Genestealer Neophytes, terrain - then that's also stuff I'd personally would like to have).

Now, if it turns out that in order to play this version of Kill Team you also need the Codex of the faction(s) you want to play, that might kill it for me - too many books.

 Ghaz wrote:

'Soup' lists in 40K are Battle-forged since there are faction keywords such as IMPERIUM or CHAOS. Personally I don't believe 'soup' lists will be in Kill Team, but so far nothing we've seen specifically clarifies the matter.

I really hope the soup is in. I want to make a weird mixed Inquisitorial warband. An inquisitor, a (primaris) Deathwatch marine, a tech-priest, an assassin and then some mooks.

You don't need soup for this as that would be (or better was) how Inquisition as a faction works.

Now, if it turns out that in order to play this version of Kill Team you also need the Codex of the faction(s) you want to play, that might kill it for me - too many books.

I am assuming there are no rules for actual units in the book - they will all be from the codexes?

Maybe faction related Stratagems, equipment etc - if so I hope they cover ALL factions.

A new game... some cool new rules to field a small amount of models at Skirmish level. Some great new terrain and exciting way to use my existing forces.

Hmmmm yep.... I can see why some people are complaining!!

If the rules are different, then the Codexes probably won't be any use, so the stats will be included in the game.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the rules are different, then the Codexes probably won't be any use, so the stats will be included in the game.

Agreed but that then likely means small number of factions (Mainly Marines) at launch like Necromunda/ Shadespire?

Not necessarily. Rules follow models. If KT uses existing models there is no reason to delay rules.

I'm not sure how you got from the video featuring Skitarii, Genestealer Cult, Tempestus Scions and Tau to "mostly Marines".

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Best thing GW could do is outsource their rules development for these skirmish games. Shadow war's rules were some of the worst skirmish rules I've played, and GW really needs to try to market these games outside of the bubble of GW fans. I've just noticed so many willing to accept subpar rules because the nostalgia factor is high.

As a gamer first, I would love actually playable rules that could compete with other skirmish systems.

Yep, just take a look to their main skirmish game Necromunda. GW has proven it again and again that they don´t give a damn about their rules. I can´t understand why people are so hyped about this new game because the rules will be either shallow or full of mistakes.

There's nothing wrong with the rules for Necromunda, the problem is in the quality control of the publications. They need to be properly proofread, it's not that they need to outsource rules.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the rules are different, then the Codexes probably won't be any use, so the stats will be included in the game.

I wouldn't expect that to be the case. Stats are, as of now, intended to be part of your model's boxes whenever they get reboxed.

I am also a bit wary of the "dozens of factions" claim. Basically every faction outside of Knights was able to work before, maybe Kill Team will be a bit stricter with faction keywords?

Stats for 8th edition 40k, yes. But they've said that this new Kill Team will be using different rules. I suppose they could repack all the boxes (or at least, all the Troops, Fast Attack and Elites boxes) again, but I doubt it.

The rules could use the same stat lines but function differently, I suppose; you could use the existing 8th edition stat line and use the Necromunda rules with only a few changes needed.

 alextroy wrote:
Not necessarily. Rules follow models. If KT uses existing models there is no reason to delay rules.

So are you thinking all basic/Elite troop types in the initial rule book for all factions? It will be thick book if you go beyond that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the rules are different, then the Codexes probably won't be any use, so the stats will be included in the game.

I wouldn't expect that to be the case. Stats are, as of now, intended to be part of your model's boxes whenever they get reboxed.

I am also a bit wary of the "dozens of factions" claim. Basically every faction outside of Knights was able to work before, maybe Kill Team will be a bit stricter with faction keywords?

Maybe they include the various Regiments, Septs, Craftworlds, Chapters, Dynasties, Forge Worlds, etc. as a separate "factions"? That would move up the number real quick.

Anyway, so far, in the video we saw:
1. Skitarii Vanguard
2. Genestealer Cult Neophytes
3. Militarum Tempestus
4. Tau Fire Warriors
5. Drukhari Wyches
6. Space Wolves (including Thunderwolves)
7. Ork Boyz
8. Grey Knights
9. Necron Immortals
10. Thousand Sons
11. Death Guard (including poxwalkers)

So 11 factions, and counting...? Interestingly, no normal Space Marines (or Primaris) in sight.

 Kirasu wrote:
Best thing GW could do is outsource their rules development for these skirmish games. Shadow war's rules were some of the worst skirmish rules I've played, and GW really needs to try to market these games outside of the bubble of GW fans. I've just noticed so many willing to accept subpar rules because the nostalgia factor is high.

As a gamer first, I would love actually playable rules that could compete with other skirmish systems.

As a gamer first, you aren't really their target customer.

About the high number of factions, they could very well split some codex into subfactions.
Wych, Kabalites and Covens could be three separate factions for instance. Orks could have boyz, kult of speed, and gretchins. Skitarii be different from Cult mechanicus etc.
A troop + 1-2 special kits is enough for KT. Especially if the troop kit has multiple options.

From the video, it seems that each faction drew its models from a single infantry kit, just like in SW:A for the basic factions. I suspect they'll emphasize this in KT too.

fresus wrote:
About the high number of factions, they could very well split some codex into subfactions.
Wych, Kabalites and Covens could be three separate factions for instance. Orks could have boyz, kult of speed, and gretchins. Skitarii be different from Cult mechanicus etc.
A troop + 1-2 special kits is enough for KT. Especially if the troop kit has multiple options.

From the video, it seems that each faction drew its models from a single infantry kit, just like in SW:A for the basic factions. I suspect they'll emphasize this in KT too.

There are the Thunderwolves and Pow Walkers in the video as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:

So are you thinking all basic/Elite troop types in the initial rule book for all factions? It will be thick book if you go beyond that?

why should that be the case?
other games get all their rules including faction profiles in 100-150 pages (unlike you want just 2 unit profiles per page like the index books)

looks like KT has about 200 so would possible


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Best thing GW could do is outsource their rules development for these skirmish games. Shadow war's rules were some of the worst skirmish rules I've played, and GW really needs to try to market these games outside of the bubble of GW fans. I've just noticed so many willing to accept subpar rules because the nostalgia factor is high.

As a gamer first, I would love actually playable rules that could compete with other skirmish systems.

As a gamer first, you aren't really their target customer.

with small amounts of models per team and organised play support, gamers are the main target customer for KT

 Mr Morden wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Not necessarily. Rules follow models. If KT uses existing models there is no reason to delay rules.

So are you thinking all basic/Elite troop types in the initial rule book for all factions? It will be thick book if you go beyond that?

There's a lot of games these days that put every army list in their main book. Granted most games don't have dozens of mini factions like 40k has but considering what can be taken in kill team, you could absolutely make that work.

I mean think about a codex, how many pages of that are actually taken up by rules? You've got a page for wargear and stat profiles, a page for a couple if army special rules and warlord traits, maybe some strategems or army specific skills, and then about a page per every unit or two.

If they release everything in one book it also greatly eases buy in. In addition it lets people like me, who could see themselves owning multiple teams but not planning on making them full armies, go ham with it since we don't need 5 more codexes that we otherwise wouldn't use.

Interesting, that will depend if its own thing rulewise or if they went of the way of Necromunda and Shadow War, which would be a shame.

I don't mind it all in one book - Shadow War had a couple of units per Primary faction and then some unique models.

So if you went:

Page 1 intro and pic
Page 2-3 Units, rules and stats blocks ( Couple of infantry units and couple of Elite/FA?"
Page 4 Sub factions, stratagems, abilities etc

We have what 29 Primary Factions listed on the 40k site - lets ignore Ynari as a Primary so 28.

so 112 pages - doable but chunky book.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I don't mind it all in one book - Shadow War had a couple of units per Primary faction and then some unique models.

So if you went:

Page 1 intro and pic
Page 2-3 Units, rules and stats blocks ( Couple of infantry units and couple of Elite/FA?"
Page 4 Sub factions, stratagems, abilities etc

We have what 29 Primary Factions listed on the 40k site - lets ignore Ynari as a Primary so 28.

so 112 pages - doable but chunky book.

We already know the book's about 200 pages, so that would fit with still about 90 pages or so for the game's rules, obligatory background bits, pics, etc.

I think we can disregard Imperial and Renegade Knights as factions too, but that still leaves 26, which fits the "dozens" of factions.

You know what would be nice? Stat cards, like they did with the 8th Edition starter boxes. That way you could cut down on the info that has to be shoved into the book. Put out a box of nicely printed, glossy stat cards for the various units for those looking to expand beyond the Skitarii and Genestealer cultists that come in the box. Throw in downloadable pdfs for everything as well on the website and you're golden.

Hey, remember when they launched Age of Sigmar or make cool characters for other games and rules appear as downloads on their page. Wouldn't it be good to roll out squad lists like that. It can extend the life of the game by adding a page or two of rules for the squad they want to add to Kill Team without have a 500 page rule book.

fresus wrote:
About the high number of factions, they could very well split some codex into subfactions.
Wych, Kabalites and Covens could be three separate factions for instance. Orks could have boyz, kult of speed, and gretchins. Skitarii be different from Cult mechanicus etc.
A troop + 1-2 special kits is enough for KT. Especially if the troop kit has multiple options.

From the video, it seems that each faction drew its models from a single infantry kit, just like in SW:A for the basic factions. I suspect they'll emphasize this in KT too.

this is what's gonna happen

U/SKWAAAARK on Reddit took the trouble of transcribing the rules pages shown in the video:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/84tuiv/8th_ed_official_kill_team_rules_preview/?st=JEUATIC1&sh=7f6e730d

It’s clear that the rules for each unit are at least not drawn from their codex, as they have “datasheets” which list the “specialisms” available to them. The game also has datacards like Necromunda.

Alright if we're doing datacards that's going be huge. That means way less money needing to be spent on codexes and more money spent on models.

Oh god, I'm going to have so many weird little fringe teams if this game is good