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2018/05/05 16:06:37
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Red Corsair wrote: Why the hell are you still going on about the fething studio painting team? It's entirely irrelevant to the release.
Thank you.
I think all of my DW upgrade sprues will be devoted to Primaris Marines. Sorry Original Deathwatch, but you will be the three Kill Teams I have and that is it. I am thinking just grabbing the Dark Imperium Intercessor Squads will suffice. And then, if Corvus Blackstars can carry Primaris Marines, two more of those.
osmesis wrote: You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.
You don't need perfect balance. You just need things to be close enough that list building matters less than good play in game. Which isn't to say list building should be irrelevant - you need a bit of rock/paper/scissors - but there shouldn't be glaring differences in effectiveness.
Deathwatch intercessors shooting marines with the poison round = 2*2/3*5/6*1/2=5/9 dead marine. 5/9*13=7.222 points. 7.222/19=38% points return. This is reasonably competitive, you can relatively easily buff it to get past 40% which is about the sweet spot.
Regular intercessors shooting marines = 2*2/3*1/2*1/2=1/3 dead marine. 1/3*13=4.333 points. 4.333/18=24% points return. Which was barely okay back in the index days - and grows worse and worse with every new codex.
In other words by paying an extra point the DW intercessor now deals almost 60% more damage. (I realise the maths doesn't entirely work out like this, someone could do the full probability curves for each unit - but I think you would reach a similar comparative conclusion).
Yes the DW is slightly more fragile - paying an extra point and getting no boost to survivability - but I think paying 5% more points to do 60% more damage is a reasonable trade off.
This is what people mean about imbalance. Its not close.
IMO, Intercessors are meant to fill a different role in DW than other SM lists, so even though they are both intercessors, this is not an apples to apples comparison. SM lists have access to many more units to fill roles than DW does. For instance, Intercessors are going to be one of the main sources of dakka for some DW lists. That's a laughable idea for regular space marine lists. So while they are both "Intercessors", the role carved out for them in each army is different.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 16:08:04
2018/05/05 16:30:58
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
osmesis wrote: You can't have perfect balance and not be identical - I don't understand what you want.
You don't need perfect balance. You just need things to be close enough that list building matters less than good play in game. Which isn't to say list building should be irrelevant - you need a bit of rock/paper/scissors - but there shouldn't be glaring differences in effectiveness.
Deathwatch intercessors shooting marines with the poison round = 2*2/3*5/6*1/2=5/9 dead marine. 5/9*13=7.222 points. 7.222/19=38% points return. This is reasonably competitive, you can relatively easily buff it to get past 40% which is about the sweet spot.
Regular intercessors shooting marines = 2*2/3*1/2*1/2=1/3 dead marine. 1/3*13=4.333 points. 4.333/18=24% points return. Which was barely okay back in the index days - and grows worse and worse with every new codex.
In other words by paying an extra point the DW intercessor now deals almost 60% more damage. (I realise the maths doesn't entirely work out like this, someone could do the full probability curves for each unit - but I think you would reach a similar comparative conclusion).
Yes the DW is slightly more fragile - paying an extra point and getting no boost to survivability - but I think paying 5% more points to do 60% more damage is a reasonable trade off.
This is what people mean about imbalance. Its not close.
IMO, Intercessors are meant to fill a different role in DW than other SM lists, so even though they are both intercessors, this is not an apples to apples comparison. SM lists have access to many more units to fill roles than DW does. For instance, Intercessors are going to be one of the main sources of dakka for some DW lists. That's a laughable idea for regular space marine lists. So while they are both "Intercessors", the role carved out for them in each army is different.
It's not different. They just aren't good without special ammo.
We don't even know if they'll be good with it.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2018/05/05 17:21:05
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
So basically if Intecessors were just mediocre at the old price point of 20 points, them going back to that for significantly better guns is a fantastic deal.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/05 17:26:34
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
IMO, Intercessors are meant to fill a different role in DW than other SM lists, so even though they are both intercessors, this is not an apples to apples comparison. SM lists have access to many more units to fill roles than DW does. For instance, Intercessors are going to be one of the main sources of dakka for some DW lists. That's a laughable idea for regular space marine lists. So while they are both "Intercessors", the role carved out for them in each army is different.
It's not different. They just aren't good without special ammo.
We don't even know if they'll be good with it.
Yeah.. I don't really see how intercessors serve any role. I am not really convinced GW writes rules based on that in mind. Units just get stats and special rules. If they are good - they are good. if they are bad, they are bad.
Regular intercessors - like regular marines - are pretty bad. They have okay (ish) defensive stats for their points compared with comparable infantry - but they have utterly terrible damage output. Its about half to two thirds where it should be compared to other competitive options. Its crazy that you have models that cost about half a marine but have a better gun.
If you are taking them to fill out your troops tax or sit on some objectives its not because they are especially good at this task but because you have nothing else. (Actually you have scouts and CSM have cultists, which are generally considered quite a better.)
2018/05/05 19:46:52
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Does Winter's review go over the psychic powers warlord traits etc?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2018/05/05 19:48:46
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Eldarain wrote: Does Winter's review go over the psychic powers warlord traits etc?
It does. No new psychic powers, just a reprint of the Librarius tree. Can't remember the Warlord ones exactly but the one to regen spent CP on a 5+ was the clear winner.
2018/05/05 19:49:19
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Eldarain wrote: Does Winter's review go over the psychic powers warlord traits etc?
Psyker powers is just the Librarius. Blech.
One of the traits is a 6+++ aura, and another grants a unit Ignores Cover a turn or something. Then the standard change the type of target you're effective against. That's all I remember.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/05 20:10:02
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Thanks for the info. Can't watch it until I'm home. Disappointing about the powers as the WHdigital page lists them as "powers specific to Deathwatch models"
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2018/05/05 22:26:15
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Something that stood out after watching MWG's review:
6 Bikes with SIA Twin Boltgun + Sgt Stormbolter
178 points
That's 28 shots at half range potentially wounding on 2s re-rolling 1s, not bad
Also, I think they said Watch Captain can take a Jump Pack, so Move and Advance him up the board turn 1 and Beacon a squad of Hellblasters to the enemies face or a melee squad for turn 1 charge
2018/05/05 23:28:47
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2018/05/05 23:46:31
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
osmesis wrote: Something that stood out after watching MWG's review:
6 Bikes with SIA Twin Boltgun + Sgt Stormbolter
178 points
That's 28 shots at half range potentially wounding on 2s re-rolling 1s, not bad
Also, I think they said Watch Captain can take a Jump Pack, so Move and Advance him up the board turn 1 and Beacon a squad of Hellblasters to the enemies face or a melee squad for turn 1 charge
I would Beacon 6x Aggressors to him. 36 + 6D6 shots on 12 T5 wounds that HAVE to be dealt with or you double it the following turn and/or start punching things with power fists. Sure, you don't get SIA, but burning the troops doctrine strat and having the troops mission tactic is basically equivalent to hellfire against T3
Alternatively, beacon one of those new Primaris mixed teams with 5x intercessors 5x aggressors. Now you have 10 ablative wounds before they start significantly hurting the firepower of the unit.
2018/05/06 02:03:04
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
osmesis wrote: Something that stood out after watching MWG's review:
6 Bikes with SIA Twin Boltgun + Sgt Stormbolter
178 points
That's 28 shots at half range potentially wounding on 2s re-rolling 1s, not bad
Also, I think they said Watch Captain can take a Jump Pack, so Move and Advance him up the board turn 1 and Beacon a squad of Hellblasters to the enemies face or a melee squad for turn 1 charge
I would Beacon 6x Aggressors to him. 36 + 6D6 shots on 12 T5 wounds that HAVE to be dealt with or you double it the following turn and/or start punching things with power fists. Sure, you don't get SIA, but burning the troops doctrine strat and having the troops mission tactic is basically equivalent to hellfire against T3
Alternatively, beacon one of those new Primaris mixed teams with 5x intercessors 5x aggressors. Now you have 10 ablative wounds before they start significantly hurting the firepower of the unit.
Wouldn't the new beta rules stop this from happening T1?
2018/05/06 02:22:05
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
osmesis wrote: Something that stood out after watching MWG's review:
6 Bikes with SIA Twin Boltgun + Sgt Stormbolter
178 points
That's 28 shots at half range potentially wounding on 2s re-rolling 1s, not bad
Also, I think they said Watch Captain can take a Jump Pack, so Move and Advance him up the board turn 1 and Beacon a squad of Hellblasters to the enemies face or a melee squad for turn 1 charge
I would Beacon 6x Aggressors to him. 36 + 6D6 shots on 12 T5 wounds that HAVE to be dealt with or you double it the following turn and/or start punching things with power fists. Sure, you don't get SIA, but burning the troops doctrine strat and having the troops mission tactic is basically equivalent to hellfire against T3
Alternatively, beacon one of those new Primaris mixed teams with 5x intercessors 5x aggressors. Now you have 10 ablative wounds before they start significantly hurting the firepower of the unit.
Wouldn't the new beta rules stop this from happening T1?
nope, beta rule doesn't affect things that are already on the board, only things in tactical reserves (off the table)
its why things like da jump still work, and why flamestorm agressors as anti-charge insurance against nids and orks is hilariously good
2018/05/06 02:27:00
Subject: Re:Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
osmesis wrote: Something that stood out after watching MWG's review:
6 Bikes with SIA Twin Boltgun + Sgt Stormbolter
178 points
That's 28 shots at half range potentially wounding on 2s re-rolling 1s, not bad
Also, I think they said Watch Captain can take a Jump Pack, so Move and Advance him up the board turn 1 and Beacon a squad of Hellblasters to the enemies face or a melee squad for turn 1 charge
I would Beacon 6x Aggressors to him. 36 + 6D6 shots on 12 T5 wounds that HAVE to be dealt with or you double it the following turn and/or start punching things with power fists. Sure, you don't get SIA, but burning the troops doctrine strat and having the troops mission tactic is basically equivalent to hellfire against T3
Alternatively, beacon one of those new Primaris mixed teams with 5x intercessors 5x aggressors. Now you have 10 ablative wounds before they start significantly hurting the firepower of the unit.
Wouldn't the new beta rules stop this from happening T1?
nope, beta rule doesn't affect things that are already on the board, only things in tactical reserves (off the table)
its why things like da jump still work, and why flamestorm agressors as anti-charge insurance against nids and orks is hilariously good
I went and read the Beacon and I see the issue now. The Beacon works on units in reserve but also units that are on the board. You're using it in the latter scenario.
2018/05/06 02:45:39
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Fantastic. That beautiful Blood Angels Chaplain is putting in for a transfer.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2018/05/06 02:45:51
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boltstorm Aggressors already on the table looking like fun..
Couldn't you pick up a whole Fortis Kill Team? Five Aggressors and five Intercessors? That way you can trigger Vengeance Rounds on the Intercessors right in your opponent's face to add some extra punch to those Aggressors?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boltstorm Aggressors already on the table looking like fun..
Couldn't you pick up a whole Fortis Kill Team? Five Aggressors and five Intercessors? That way you can trigger Vengeance Rounds on the Intercessors right in your opponent's face to add some extra punch to those Aggressors?
That's not a bad idea either. I'm still thinking as a Vanilla Marine player my bad.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/06 03:51:29
Subject: Deathwatch and Harlequins Information / leaks rules
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boltstorm Aggressors already on the table looking like fun..
Couldn't you pick up a whole Fortis Kill Team? Five Aggressors and five Intercessors? That way you can trigger Vengeance Rounds on the Intercessors right in your opponent's face to add some extra punch to those Aggressors?
That's not a bad idea either. I'm still thinking as a Vanilla Marine player my bad.
I run mixed armies for both my Crimson Fists and Blood Angels, so I am used to thinking outside the box with Primaris. But dropping that monster in front of someone would be pretty awesome. Those 10 shots of Vengeance Rounds plus the 60+10d6 Aggressor shots are going to be mean.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boltstorm Aggressors already on the table looking like fun..
Couldn't you pick up a whole Fortis Kill Team? Five Aggressors and five Intercessors? That way you can trigger Vengeance Rounds on the Intercessors right in your opponent's face to add some extra punch to those Aggressors?
That's not a bad idea either. I'm still thinking as a Vanilla Marine player my bad.
I run mixed armies for both my Crimson Fists and Blood Angels, so I am used to thinking outside the box with Primaris. But dropping that monster in front of someone would be pretty awesome. Those 10 shots of Vengeance Rounds plus the 60+10d6 Aggressor shots are going to be mean.
Sadly the beacon port counts as moving. That said, 30 + 5D6 + 20 vengeance rounds is nothing to sneeze at and MUST be dealt with by your opponent if they like having infantry on the board.
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
