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 mokoshkana wrote:
The way they wrote the Shrieking Doom stratagem makes it seem like they made the shrieker profile better because if they didn't then what's the point of this stratagem?

See, the fact that you ask that makes me think you haven't seen the rules for the death jester in every edition since 2nd.

"Whats the point of this rule" is a common theme amongst pretty much every iteration of him.

3rd-6th: Hey, want a rando guy with a heavy weapon running around with your melee unit? No? are you sure?

7th: Hey, want a rando leadership debuffer dude for a whole bunch of points in an edition where everyone is fearless? no? Are you sure? On a 6, you get to choose who he targets with his shooting attacks!

15 minutes before the end of 7th: Hey quick we gave him an actually useful rule because now he's a named character who's already dead by the time you finish reading his rules packet!

8th: Hey, want a rando guy with a really, REALLY expensive shuriken cannon who doesn't debuff leadership at all despite really seeming like he should? Are you sure? He's got a super-special weapon that can cause D3 mortal wounds if it hits, wounds, and kills a single-wound model through an unmodified armor save! Doesn't that sound awesome?

I wonder if the Great Harlequin keyword comes with a potential benefit or if it's just so you can feel nice and fluffy?

the_scotsman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
The way they wrote the Shrieking Doom stratagem makes it seem like they made the shrieker profile better because if they didn't then what's the point of this stratagem?

See, the fact that you ask that makes me think you haven't seen the rules for the death jester in every edition since 2nd.

"Whats the point of this rule" is a common theme amongst pretty much every iteration of him.

3rd-6th: Hey, want a rando guy with a heavy weapon running around with your melee unit? No? are you sure?

7th: Hey, want a rando leadership debuffer dude for a whole bunch of points in an edition where everyone is fearless? no? Are you sure? On a 6, you get to choose who he targets with his shooting attacks!

15 minutes before the end of 7th: Hey quick we gave him an actually useful rule because now he's a named character who's already dead by the time you finish reading his rules packet!

8th: Hey, want a rando guy with a really, REALLY expensive shuriken cannon who doesn't debuff leadership at all despite really seeming like he should? Are you sure? He's got a super-special weapon that can cause D3 mortal wounds if it hits, wounds, and kills a single-wound model through an unmodified armor save! Doesn't that sound awesome?

Unfortunately I was a late to the 40k party, but I'll just take your view on the matter previously. Guess we'll just have to wait until this weekend for the reviews to come out.

 Robin5t wrote:
I wonder if the Great Harlequin keyword comes with a potential benefit or if it's just so you can feel nice and fluffy?

Maybe a relic that can only be taken by a great harlequin?

Would be cool if the Troupe Master (or, fingers crossed, all infantry units for Harlequins) got buffed to S4 so that his iconic Power Sword sees some use (and you can put one of the two Embraces in the box on a regular Troupe member).

Agiel wrote:
Would be cool if the Troupe Master (or, fingers crossed, all infantry units for Harlequins) got buffed to S4 so that his iconic Power Sword sees some use (and you can put one of the two Embraces in the box on a regular Troupe member).

The best we can hope for is a decent relic power sword.

Agiel wrote:
Would be cool if the Troupe Master (or, fingers crossed, all infantry units for Harlequins) got buffed to S4 so that his iconic Power Sword sees some use (and you can put one of the two Embraces in the box on a regular Troupe member).

You don't like the fact that the only unique option the HQ character gets is a slightly worse version of a basic weapon upgrade?

Just call it something different GW. Make it a "player's sabre" or a "void rapier". Maybe a "harlequin's third base". Use your super copyrightable name-fu to bestow upon this weapon rules that are more interesting than a standard power sword (tm).

 mokoshkana wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
A stratagem that makes the invul save better per model in the unit killed that turn... up to a 3+... Kinda sounds like we are losing that 4++ and headed back to 5++ territory, which would be terrible.

I think you're just misreading it. The number of casualties doesn't matter, its just a flat +1 to the save. The wording is a tad wonky, but I think it's to prevent the solitare from using the stratagem.

Just went back an re-read with a clear head. You are right, I misread it before. It seems worded to deny use on Solitaire or with Prismatic Blur. Seems handy after being tossed out of a transport or after taking an Overwatch.

Goobi2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
A stratagem that makes the invul save better per model in the unit killed that turn... up to a 3+... Kinda sounds like we are losing that 4++ and headed back to 5++ territory, which would be terrible.

I think you're just misreading it. The number of casualties doesn't matter, its just a flat +1 to the save. The wording is a tad wonky, but I think it's to prevent the solitare from using the stratagem.

Just went back an re-read with a clear head. You are right, I misread it before. It seems worded to deny use on Solitaire or with Prismatic Blur. Seems handy after being tossed out of a transport or after taking an Overwatch.

Not just the solitaire but any character or single model unit like a vehicle.

the_scotsman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
The way they wrote the Shrieking Doom stratagem makes it seem like they made the shrieker profile better because if they didn't then what's the point of this stratagem?

See, the fact that you ask that makes me think you haven't seen the rules for the death jester in every edition since 2nd.

"Whats the point of this rule" is a common theme amongst pretty much every iteration of him.

3rd-6th: Hey, want a rando guy with a heavy weapon running around with your melee unit? No? are you sure?

7th: Hey, want a rando leadership debuffer dude for a whole bunch of points in an edition where everyone is fearless? no? Are you sure? On a 6, you get to choose who he targets with his shooting attacks!

15 minutes before the end of 7th: Hey quick we gave him an actually useful rule because now he's a named character who's already dead by the time you finish reading his rules packet!

8th: Hey, want a rando guy with a really, REALLY expensive shuriken cannon who doesn't debuff leadership at all despite really seeming like he should? Are you sure? He's got a super-special weapon that can cause D3 mortal wounds if it hits, wounds, and kills a single-wound model through an unmodified armor save! Doesn't that sound awesome?

He was 75(!) points in the Index. At least he seems to be down to 45 in the Codex.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wow. They won't give you a HQ Great Harlequin but they will give you a stratagem for it. Damn GW can suck.

It's the same as the Chapter Master upgrade stratagem.

Except Marines have a horde of HQ's. Come back when the only HQ you have is a Tactical Sergeant.

pm713 wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wow. They won't give you a HQ Great Harlequin but they will give you a stratagem for it. Damn GW can suck.

It's the same as the Chapter Master upgrade stratagem.

Except Marines have a horde of HQ's. Come back when the only HQ you have is a Tactical Sergeant.

Shadowseers say hello...

 mokoshkana wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wow. They won't give you a HQ Great Harlequin but they will give you a stratagem for it. Damn GW can suck.

It's the same as the Chapter Master upgrade stratagem.

Except Marines have a horde of HQ's. Come back when the only HQ you have is a Tactical Sergeant.

Shadowseers say hello...

Okay. So you get 2 HQ's that aren't leaders instead of 1? That doesn't really make it less bad that GW refuses to make the Harlequins leader a thing which is something they should have done at release.

The regain CP trait is probably the best one, but I am fairly certain I will be trying out the Soaring Spite one a few times along with the unique artifact for some serious trolling

So I'm assuming Curtainfall is a relic shrieker cannon, but I wonder how much improved it is. Just hoping for a reason to use my jesters.

And of course I hope the Shadowseer gets some buff to casting rolls. Casting value 7 is pretty high to get off reliably, Farseers get a free reroll to help get theirs off. Veil of Tears is basically Conceal that works vs shooting and close combat, that difference is easily worth the extra casting value. Conceal does work on bikes as well, though. Its a shame Veil doesn't have that sort of utility.

A major issue Harlies faced in the index was charging two units into separate major targets and getting interrupted on the 2nd unit, which always hurts. But between Veil of Tears and a couple Stratagems put on the 2nd unit, the impact of the interrupt can be hampered in return.

It wouldn't take much for a single Death Jester to be a pretty good pick. They're now 45 points, a 1 CP Dreaming Shadow stratagem doubles their shooting, a 1 CP generic stratagem doubles the damage of their shrieker profile if that turns out to be useful, and there's a relic shrieker cannon. If the basic guy is at-all worthwhile at his new price there are going to be some neat options for stacking relics and stratagems on him.

Dionysodorus wrote:
It wouldn't take much for a single Death Jester to be a pretty good pick. They're now 45 points, a 1 CP Dreaming Shadow stratagem doubles their shooting, a 1 CP generic stratagem doubles the damage of their shrieker profile if that turns out to be useful, and there's a relic shrieker cannon. If the basic guy is at-all worthwhile at his new price there are going to be some neat options for stacking relics and stratagems on him.

It's not definitive, but the rumours are that is changes were pretty minor. Apparently his shrieker round got -1 AP and does -2 Ld instead (or in addition too?) the mortal wounds. Also his other abilities apparently didnt change.

Goobi2 wrote:
And of course I hope the Shadowseer gets some buff to casting rolls. Casting value 7 is pretty high to get off reliably, Farseers get a free reroll to help get theirs off. Veil of Tears is basically Conceal that works vs shooting and close combat, that difference is easily worth the extra casting value. Conceal does work on bikes as well, though. Its a shame Veil doesn't have that sort of utility.

I don't see why it would. It never had, and only the most potent psykers have buffs or rerolls.
Additionally, the phantasmancy discipline is only accessible to the Shadowseer. Having a +1 to roll would be almost the same as not having it and having all the casting value 1 point lower (the only difference would be when casting smite), so it makes it even less likely.

fresus wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
And of course I hope the Shadowseer gets some buff to casting rolls. Casting value 7 is pretty high to get off reliably, Farseers get a free reroll to help get theirs off. Veil of Tears is basically Conceal that works vs shooting and close combat, that difference is easily worth the extra casting value. Conceal does work on bikes as well, though. Its a shame Veil doesn't have that sort of utility.

I don't see why it would. It never had, and only the most potent psykers have buffs or rerolls.
Additionally, the phantasmancy discipline is only accessible to the Shadowseer. Having a +1 to roll would be almost the same as not having it and having all the casting value 1 point lower (the only difference would be when casting smite), so it makes it even less likely.

Yeah, kinda takes some of the shine away when looked at in that light. However, it is worth noting that Harlequin psykers are still Aeldari psykers, which means fairly potent. Farseers and Shadowseers are not necessarily on different levels psychically, they just have different niches to fill and toys to use. A once a turn reroll could just as well be a once a turn + to casting. There are a whole lot of goodies in the Black Library....

Maybe I am being thick, but apart from the 1 or 2 command points, where is the advantage of the webway gate compared to the web way portal stratagem?
9" or 12" away(+3" movement),
1/2 units out in 1 turn vs 1 per turn.
Can't be destroyed vs can be destroyed.
Deploy anywhere vs fixed location.
1/2 cp vs 120pts

Why take the portal? As I said I might missed something..

barnacle111 wrote:
Maybe I am being thick, but apart from the 1 or 2 command points, where is the advantage of the webway gate compared to the web way portal stratagem?
9" or 12" away(+3" movement),
1/2 units out in 1 turn vs 1 per turn.
Can't be destroyed vs can be destroyed.
Deploy anywhere vs fixed location.
1/2 cp vs 120pts

Why take the portal? As I said I might missed something..

There isn't one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
It wouldn't take much for a single Death Jester to be a pretty good pick. They're now 45 points, a 1 CP Dreaming Shadow stratagem doubles their shooting, a 1 CP generic stratagem doubles the damage of their shrieker profile if that turns out to be useful, and there's a relic shrieker cannon. If the basic guy is at-all worthwhile at his new price there are going to be some neat options for stacking relics and stratagems on him.

It's not definitive, but the rumours are that is changes were pretty minor. Apparently his shrieker round got -1 AP and does -2 Ld instead (or in addition too?) the mortal wounds. Also his other abilities apparently didnt change.

If they've left him with the only Shuriken weapon in the game that doesn't get AP-3 on 6's then that would be a rather unfunny joke.

 Imateria wrote:

If they've left him with the only Shuriken weapon in the game that doesn't get AP-3 on 6's then that would be a rather unfunny joke.

Sounds like it will be more similar to Maugan Ra's Maugetar, in that it's -1 normally but becomes -3 on 6s to hit (which it currently has).

 Imateria wrote:

barnacle111 wrote:
Maybe I am being thick, but apart from the 1 or 2 command points, where is the advantage of the webway gate compared to the web way portal stratagem?
9" or 12" away(+3" movement),
1/2 units out in 1 turn vs 1 per turn.
Can't be destroyed vs can be destroyed.
Deploy anywhere vs fixed location.
1/2 cp vs 120pts

Why take the portal? As I said I might missed something..

There isn't one.

It does look nice.
So the best option is probably to use it as a piece of terrain.

No, you both misunderstand. His shrieker round gets -1 stock, but all shots (both shuriken and shrieker) still is -3 AP on a 6 to Wound for all shots. At least, thats what i've picked up from people who supposedly have seen the book.

barnacle111 wrote:
Maybe I am being thick, but apart from the 1 or 2 command points, where is the advantage of the webway gate compared to the web way portal stratagem?
9" or 12" away(+3" movement),
1/2 units out in 1 turn vs 1 per turn.
Can't be destroyed vs can be destroyed.
Deploy anywhere vs fixed location.
1/2 cp vs 120pts

Why take the portal? As I said I might missed something..

Competitively, there isn't too much reason for it. It is fairly tough for it's cost and therefore could soak some decent firepower, but I wouldn't count that as a top tier tactic.

Simple reasons to take it over the stratagem? There are a few.

1. Bring in things that the stratagem doesn't. Wraithlords, knight, Taloi, Vaul's Wrath guns.

2. Spend a command point to come in within 9" of an enemy. It is situational, as they have to be close to the gate, but it gets you closer than the normal 9".

3. Keep more than 2 units off the board. This is a huge gamble off of one portal, but you could keep 3+ hidden in there for safety if you felt like it. Spend a point each turn it lives and draw two out. Another CP when you die to pull out one last one. It is potentially a CP hungry strategy of a less mobile Cloudstrike, but with fewer points spent on transports. (Even fewer CP than spamming Cloudstrike)

4. The damage soak I mentioned before. They can pour in shots to try to stop you from bringing in the unit(s) but 1 CP still brings at least 1 in. At T8 it is the hardest "transport" Aeldari have, though a Serpent shield wins in Resilience vs shooting. 14 Wounds and a 5++ are pretty solid also for "only" 120 pts.

Sure they can try to counter the Portal by flooding it with bodies, but that is pretty easy to counter, too. And if they don't manage to stop the unit from coming in, they could be in death range of whatever scary unit they were trying to block.

 mokoshkana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
The way they wrote the Shrieking Doom stratagem makes it seem like they made the shrieker profile better because if they didn't then what's the point of this stratagem?[/quotee

8th: Hey, want a rando guy with a really, REALLY expensive shuriken cannon who doesn't debuff leadership at all despite really seeming like he should? Are you sure? He's got a super-special weapon that can cause D3 mortal wounds if it hits, wounds, and kills a single-wound model through an unmodified armor save! Doesn't that sound awesome?

Unfortunately I was a late to the 40k party, but I'll just take your view on the matter previously. Guess we'll just have to wait until this weekend for the reviews to come out.

Well what if you pair it with an example made that's 6+ hits probably... Not shabby

With the Troupe getting cheaper, the defensive stratagems and psyonics, and the cheaper Shadowseer I can see a 3x12 Foottroupe running up the board being a possibility. Far from tournament winning, but decent.

Something I will try out for sure.

Weidekuh wrote:
With the Troupe getting cheaper, the defensive stratagems and psyonics, and the cheaper Shadowseer I can see a 3x12 Foottroupe running up the board being a possibility. Far from tournament winning, but decent.

Something I will try out for sure.

I think it can only work if you stack enough defensive buffs (-1 to hit, -1 to wound, 6+++, 3++). But two of them (-1 to hit and 3++) can only but used on a single unit in matched play, so it might work for a single unit, but 3 is going to be difficult (especially to get the 6+++ on all three, it's a short range aura).
But I think the main issue is if you don't get first turn, because you need your movement and psychic phase to get the defensive buffs going.
Hopefully there's a warlord trait out there that improves the first roll

Weidekuh wrote:
With the Troupe getting cheaper, the defensive stratagems and psyonics, and the cheaper Shadowseer I can see a 3x12 Foottroupe running up the board being a possibility. Far from tournament winning, but decent.

Something I will try out for sure.

I guess "not tournament winning" covers a lot of sins - but it seems pretty awful to me.

Vs a Kabalite with all the defensive buffs.

1/2*1/3*1/3*5/6=0.04629.
So for a bladequin - 0.0463*13/6=10% return. 20% in rapid fire range.
Which isn't very good.
But lets give our quin an embrace. - 0.0463*19/6=14.6% Approaching 30% in rapid fire range. Reasonable enough.
A fusion pistol? 0.0463*23/6=17.7% 35% in rapid fire is fine.
Both weapons? 0.0463*29/6=22.37% - > nearly 45% in rapid fire range. Top tier - especially before we consider any buffs that could be applied to said kabalites.

Conclusion: If your Harlequins are getting shot you are in trouble unless they are literally naked (in which case... why bother running them at all?)
MSU is probably the way to go because then your opponent can overkill units.