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Alpharius was wanting MD to be set in the WOK world. This is going to be as close as it will get I guess.

I don't have an issue with them using a design that never got produced--it's only recycled if it had a release in my opinion. Doubt they made molds for it. The question is if it fits the theme/setting and well...I guess. This game is all over the place design wise.


As for the MoTU announcement. I'm glad that US has CMoN as the rights holder but feel bad that Europe got stuck with the really shady company.

Aren’t they both shady companies?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Aren’t they both shady companies?

Very different shades of grey imo.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

This game is all over the place design wise.


As for the MoTU announcement. I'm glad that US has CMoN as the rights holder but feel bad that Europe got stuck with the really shady company.

I could not agree more.

They have some weird Rackham meets WoK with a dash of Rum and Bones vibe going on. I am still on the fence about backing...even for $1. I sort of want some of the figures, really like one or two sculpts, but I just can't get around the feeling that this is a dumping ground for unreached stretch goal designs from a dozen different campaigns.

And Archon...I really like what they are becoming, but they have the definition of a rough start. I still like their Warzone models, though.

 Gallahad wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Aren’t they both shady companies?

Very different shades of grey imo.

No company is perfect and they're always going to be making sure the owners come out financially fine if there are issues. But at least CMoN appears to be taking the audit results seriously with the independent review.

Archon/Prodos just seam to want to pretend that they never have issues and have never not fulfilled promised items. CMoN is not that. There's lots of valid opinions about their art direction, cast quality, rules but they're opinions and have nothign to do with the fact that so far CMoN has always delivered where Archon has LOAD I think think as they're only non-controversial KSer.

Archon fulfilled a lot more than that. Off the top of my head they've released Load, the sequel, Vanguard of War, the sequel to that (although there may have been issues with separately printed language packs), the Empire of Men resin army from before the switch to board games, their Dungeons & Lasers campaign, the Rampart campaign, and the base game for Chronicle X has shipped out as well. Not to mention other recent sequel campaigns.

CMON had some hiccups with early campaigns too, to be fair.

I also thought I recognized that dragon. Not surprising. Makes me wonder how many other unused sculpts have turned up here. Kind of like what Project Elite did with the Sedition Wars standalone expansion material.

Sometimes I wish they'd just sell figures by themselves but we know that's not where the real big $$$ is.

You get so much stuff for 100 bucks, it feels like nothing to say no to an iffy expansion. If you're desperate to have a dragon in your MD2 games, I guess you'll need it, but there are so many monsters with the MD1 upgrade cards.

I plan to grab a couple extra copies because I'm quite sure the minis will hold value even if the game is terrible, which it won't be.

frankelee wrote:
You get so much stuff for 100 bucks, it feels like nothing to say no to an iffy expansion. If you're desperate to have a dragon in your MD2 games, I guess you'll need it, but there are so many monsters with the MD1 upgrade cards.

I plan to grab a couple extra copies because I'm quite sure the minis will hold value even if the game is terrible, which it won't be.

The "model value" plummets after the 100$ pledge.

Heavenfall only gets you 7 normal sized and the 3 larger ones, but if youre going to play the game is pretty important. So its not too bad for 45

4 horseman for 30 is pretty bad though, maybe the rules etc will add a lot to gameplay?

That dragon for 50 is awful, I like the cultists, and want the cards on the offchance I actually get to play the game but the dragon model itself I could easily do without.

The 2 packs for 25 are fine (I think I would rather throw 50 in this direction over the dragon if I was deciding between them)

Its too close to another base pledge if you just pass on 4 cavalry models, 7 infantry and a dragon. The more I think about it the harder it is becoming to pay 80 for that knowing how unlikely the gameplay stuff is to see use for me personally. But the completionist side of me is hard to shut down as well so...

The coming soon 'all in pledge' needs to be a really, really good deal.

It won't be, but it needs to be!

And "reusing" a WoK miniature here...cheeky.

not only will it not be a much better deal, I suspect it will have the not terribly good organiser and other thing I forget from their 'partner'

xevv wrote:
The "model value" plummets after the 100$ pledge.

Heavenfall only gets you 7 normal sized and the 3 larger ones, but if youre going to play the game is pretty important. So its not too bad for 45

4 horseman for 30 is pretty bad though, maybe the rules etc will add a lot to gameplay?

That dragon for 50 is awful, I like the cultists, and want the cards on the offchance I actually get to play the game but the dragon model itself I could easily do without.

The 2 packs for 25 are fine (I think I would rather throw 50 in this direction over the dragon if I was deciding between them)

Its too close to another base pledge if you just pass on 4 cavalry models, 7 infantry and a dragon. The more I think about it the harder it is becoming to pay 80 for that knowing how unlikely the gameplay stuff is to see use for me personally. But the completionist side of me is hard to shut down as well so...

Yeah, that's mini board game expansions for ya. I might get the 4 Horsemen, but only because they speak to me as models. Still 50/50 though. The core pledge is where it's at, there are people who are going to drop enough on an all-in to buy this core, Descent 3, MBP Ragnarok core, and Masters of the Universe core, or at least darn near close to it. Too luxurious a price tag for me.

Eesh, really not feeling that dragon. Starting to really weigh down on the whole campaign now. Might have to reconsider it.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
not only will it not be a much better deal, I suspect it will have the not terribly good organiser and other thing I forget from their 'partner'

The All-In pledges tend to be gameplay-only, don't they?

The few times I recall going for the all-in, I've still had to add the peripherals to it.

Unless you mean they'll slap it in to pump the numbers for it, in which case - probably.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Archon/Prodos just seam to want to pretend that they never have issues and have never not fulfilled promised items. CMoN is not that. There's lots of valid opinions about their art direction, cast quality, rules but they're opinions and have nothign to do with the fact that so far CMoN has always delivered where Archon has LOAD I think think as they're only non-controversial KSer.

Just wanted to mention that Prodos / Archon's LOAD did have a fair amount of controversy. BGG'ers (including myself) tracked down who Archon was. They kept saying they signed an NDA that didn't permit them to reveal themselves. Once I found some sort of link to a problematic KS, they revealed themselves to be Prodos (although Prodos was not actually responsible for that KS). Also, LOAD showed of WIP rules which were the CMON Rum and Bones rules. They disavowed their involvement by saying the game designer they hired was responsible. Prodos / Archon also threatened legal action against BoardGameGeek, where most of this activity took place.

1) They plagiarized Rum and Bones rules (1.0 not the newer 2.0 that kickstarted recently) word for word in numerous places.
2) They have copied character design/abilities from DOTA 2. Down to exact ability names and effects in many cases.
3) They tried to hide they are basically Prodos 2.0 behind a self imposed NDA and only revealed it now that they got caught.
4) They tried to hide their location by stating they were in Chicago but they are in Poland.
5) They hired Mihajlo Vlaskovic who has connections to DemiGod's Rising another problematic KS.
6) The current status of their AvP project is they are out of money and producing things as profits from other projects role into Prodos
7) They lied on numerous occasions to their backers in AvP
8) They heave threatened legal action against users for finding public information on their family members... Aka the owners and shareholders of Archon.

AFAIK, Archon / Prodos is still run by Jared. However, they've made restitution to AvP backers, and fulfilled KS hence. None of their games have particularly good reviews on BGG. I picked up the LOAD game on sale long after the controversy. While I haven't played the game, the miniatures *are* very good. Haven't found an Archon KS or product I've wanted to pledge or purchase, since.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1581671/summary-findingsrisks-load-campaign-and-archon
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1578952/ks-creator-cannot-reveal-identity-until-after-kick
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1582814/avp-post-ex-employee-mentioning-archon-one-four-le
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page?userfilterid=95442
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1580062/copy-rum-and-bones
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1582865/archonprodos-threatens-legal-action-against-bgg

Myself, I'm fine with a company using a sculpt they never released, had a very limited release, or a previous released in a more expensive detailed form. Reaper Bones commonly features plastic figures that were previously released in metal. They've also released a different size of the same sculpt they released previously in Bones. Arguable, CMON's second editions -- including MD2 -- make the previous one obsolete and "inferior" to the current edition.

It feels more and more like a desperate move to reach the 3 million cap (just see how they push for the extension in the following news posts). Big dragon is big to justify the high price (even it if doesn't). Just see the room it takes on the tile, it spreads on so many squares. It will be unplayable.

I think that's beginning to hurt the gameplay itself. It already does with using so many mobs huddling together on a not big enough square. Add all the wings and dynamic poses, and it's becoming a blob.

The miniatures aren't thought to be played for Massive Darkness, in the end. And for a boardgame, that's a trouble.

But I guess CMON backers don't care much for the game itself. It's more for collection, at this point.

Some argue to grab everything so that you sell what you don't need for a high price once everyone rush for second hand sites to get everything, but I'm not sure MD2 will be that hot the demand will be high enough to get that high a price.

Well, I guess you can always find a poor soul dumb enough to waste his money on plastic crap and cardbox tokens. I mean, if CMON backers blindly back anything that comes from CMON, there won't be a shortage of them any sooner.

KickTraq:

MD2 current:
$2.8M trend over 22 days
11.7K backers first two days
4.1K+ backers mid-campaign
15,855 backers
1,205 backers
11,748 backers
2.8K $1 pledges

MD1 final:
$3.5M over 31 days
9K backers first two days
6K backers last three days
7.3K backers mid-campaign
22,361 backers
1820 EB @ $110
18,505 backers @ 120
2K $1 pledges

So... fewer backers mid-campaign, and a greater proportion of $1 backers. Results aren't horrible, but .7M may still be left on the table.

I'm wondering how MD2 will do against HeroQuest Legacy. HQL has the nostalgia attraction, and Restoration Games has a friendlier reputation on BGG than CMON, but we don't know about the miniature quality. We do know that the miniatures should be the same theme as the original HeroQuest.

Hard to compare them while incomplete given that they're different lengths of time. Not to mention all the confounding variables outside of CMON's control; I think KS fatigue is real, and I also think contrary to 'popular wisdom' the pandemic has made people more excited about these campaigns as a bright spot in life, not less due to economic ruin.

It'll be interesting to see how they update HeroQuest given that it's in a genre that has had a lot of updating. Are they a company that goes pure nostalgia or do they try to find a happy medium?

frankelee wrote:
I think KS fatigue is real, and I also think contrary to 'popular wisdom' the pandemic has made people more excited about these campaigns as a bright spot in life, not less due to economic ruin.

Oh the Hype is real indeed. People are thirsty to see positive stuff, and a CMON KS campaign brings them that.

Im not sure how much more well see outside of the obvious things-

1 more tinker, the 2 models for whatever the other class is and their roaming monster finish out the daily unlocks.

KSE SG's are- the 2 gender swapped heroes we dont have yet, the large boss monster for the 2 boss tiles they haven't told us about and a horde box.

If they were to up the SG size to 200k that would do it model wise with where we are likely to end up probably.

wheelchairs are in the zeitgeist from the look of it





robots and sentry turret



i'm not excited about these (and the acrylic seems really expensive)

[deleted comment before it was cool]

But seriously, I love all these new sculpts. Great science fantasy stuff.

Agreed!

We need more of this, and less of the f'd up angels -n- demons.

Yes, given the theme here that might be unlikely, but still, these are good!

I'm not fan of including an exclusive card with a pack of sleeves.

Yea I dont think anyone is a fan of them putting a card on an expensive (possibly overpriced? I don't know what sleeves cost but they seem comparable to fantasy flights packs at a glance) optional thing.

Also apparently the organizer (which at least looks nice) wouldn't hold even half the cards if you sleeve them, making it kind of useless...

Which means everything from their partnership so far is kind of a bust.

Yeah, the amount is getting a bit of up and down since backers aren't really happy with that exclusive card behind a paywall. Looks like if you push the FOMO too far, some get actually conscious of the insane amount of money they're putting in it and decide to go back at the more valued base.

God the more I watch this campaign I am glad I dropped my pledge to a dollar, but I think I might just pull the plug. I got a lot of other dungeon crawl style games and I don't really get the concept behind winged stuff in the dungeon. I want to back it but at like $500 plus for all in plus shipping, there is too many other games out there and too much stuff. (especially with SW Legion and Marvel Crisis finally putting out Xmen)

Think i will just save my cash and the space in my gaming room on this one. I keep trying to convince myself but honestly I don't see it being a go to game considering I still never opened MD 1.

I understand the all or nothing feeling but for quite a while now it's only really made sense from a value standpoint to do the base pledge on CMON stuff and maybe a single expansion if there's one that really speaks to you.

I wholeheartedly take that approach now too.

I have too many CMON all-in pledges not to learn the errors of my way. Games that aren't great, I end up with a pile of unplayed expansions. Even with their hits, I struggle to find the time to cycle through all the expansions.

Base pledge offers exceptional value. If the game proves to be a hit - Yes, I might scramble around looking for an expansion or two. Given past experience with CMON KS games, it's not often that an expansion (beyond what's in the base pledge) makes or breaks their hit games.

Base + 4 horsemen for me on this one.

Well, it's not like MD2 is the only dungeoncrawler around. Restoration Games is releasing HeroQuest, although I don't know what the sculpts look like. Punga Miniatures made these renders for their Return to Dark Tower, at least.

Also, of course, CMON has the license for He-Man. Maybe we'll have fewer miniatures (I guess it depends on how many nameless minions He-Man fights!), but I'm sure the art director is much more limited in the appearance of the sculpts, and subjects.

We got Bards on they way, the cards have unlocked




Lyn’s grim determination has not only influenced her personality, it also gives her sharp focus and relentless dedication. For a Ranger, those two traits come in very handy, allowing her to better control her arrows before firing!




Dylan’s many years of experience traveling the world and performing confer him extraordinary playing skill (not to mention a vast repertoire!). He’s created and refined a technique to play double notes on his lute, pressing two fingers against the same fret to create eerie melodies. When benefitting from the cover of darkness Dylan is not shy to employ underhand tricks and bend the rules to move Chords around unnaturally. Such a cheat!

(I think Dylan was a Disney villain in a past life)




Father Corvus has done the unthinkable: embraced the Darkness and remain uncorrupted. Perhaps it is his faith or his stalwart mind that keeps him, but no matter what it is, Father Corvus wields the Darkness as a weapon. In battle, Father Corvus is able to harvest magical energies when he uses Strength and Guidance skills and when aided by Shadows, he’s able to transform its very essence into mana.
(guest monk)

Well I got the 25$ gameplay all in discount I was hoping for, now I can pretend the dragon only cost 30 and the 4 horseman box 25, at which point I'm ok with them (that dragon is still ugly and Ill never use it but whatever)

Guess I'm in for 285 after the crossover cards.

edit- also slightly disappointed that I dont think there even is a female wizard option between any of md1/2 or the crossover? Unless I missed one.