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Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.

another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.

 warhead01 wrote:
Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.

another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.

16 PL for 6. SO you could drop a Waagh Banner there as well. 20PL total.

Or the Waagh Banner and 5 Manz with Killsaws. 20 PL. shred any vehicle and make sure they can get in range without getting hit first. Wont be able to use the 3d6 charge strategem though.

mhalko1 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.

another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.

16 PL for 6. SO you could drop a Waagh Banner there as well. 20PL total.

Or the Waagh Banner and 5 Manz with Killsaws. 20 PL. shred any vehicle and make sure they can get in range without getting hit first. Wont be able to use the 3d6 charge strategem though.

Or two units of 15 tank bustas with squigs.

Or 150 gretchin

If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.

Tyel wrote:
If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.

Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!

120 Gretchin + 4 Runtherds would be hilarious, and difficult to budge (well not difficult, just time consuming) - I'm REALLY curious now if they benefit from DakkaDakkaDakka - I hope so; that'd be hilarious with their "Dangerous in large numbers" rule.

I like the idea someone else point out - making a 60" line with a full squad of 30 Boyz (could be 80" with 40 Boyz that have Mob Up) on turn 1 (most effective if you actually have the first turn/set of actions), then on turn 2, you drop 120 Gretchin+Runtherds; these two actions would delay them two turns of movement, which could be something useful for objectives.

That said, 8th edition is the edition of shooting and deep striking, so... even if you did block them like that, there are a ton of counters/alternatives.

Either way, I NEED to see the ruling for that 20PL stratagem - there's so many hilarious options I'm thinking of, but, I know I should temper my hopes with potential realities. Also, would like to see the Ramming Speed stratagem too.

Man, theory-crafting is FUN.

Are you factoring in hitting on 3+ for there being 20 in a unit? I make it a 37% return. Buff to 43.7% with badmoons.

Which isn't too bad.

I can't comment on the psychological damage caused by painting 150 Grots.

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.

Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!

Naah 40h.

And that's not bad kill rate for unit not brought for killing. Yesterday 111 grots won me 2k game killing 0 models

Or maybe deepstrike your 3 weirdboyz and some boyz for some big-time smite-spamming fun.

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.

Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!

I would have expected more like 25. Mob mobs of 30 seem to kill about 5 marines per volley at full strength. I guess my grots are just better than your.

I don't know where anyone else's numbers are coming from, so here's my math for 30 Gretchin - they're surprisingly dangerous with that +1 modifier, when they have access to it.

2.215 MEQ slain is the base calculated amount against MEQ, with just the +1 modifier.
3.587 MEQ slain is the calculated number for +1 to hit, DakkaDakkaDakka, and RR1's (Bad Moons); a ~62% increase in damage output.

First volley
/Total hits
[30]*.666*.333*.333 = 2.215 MEQ slain
[30*.666*.5] = 9.99 new attacks
/Total misses
[10.02*.5]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.369 MEQ slain
[10.02*.5*.666*.5] = 1.668 new attacks

Extra attacks generated; 9.99+1.668=11.658
/Total hits
[11.658]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.860 MEQ slain
/Total misses
[3.893*.5]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.143 MEQ slain

2.215 MEQ slain base
2.215+0.369+0.860+0.143 = 3.587 MEQ slain
1.372 difference/2.215
= 61.941% increase

1 wound per 25.09 points, Gretchin against MEQ; with DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1's (Bad Moons)
---

For comparison's sake, the numbers for a 30man Shoota Boy squad shooting at MEQ are:
3.326 MEQ slain; no modifiers
4.037 MEQ slain; DakkaDakkaDakka, RR1's (Bad Moons) - a 21.377% increase.
1 wound per 44.587 points, Shoota Boyz against MEQ

Shoota Boyz win the MEQ slain, especially since they can follow it up with a massive amount of S4 melee attacks - but against T3 targets, the sheer volume of Gretchin S3 firepower should win out in general.

When you factor in points though, Shoota Boyz are [using current prices] 43.727% more expensive, on 1:1 shooting damage against MEQ factor. Adding in melee attacks and S4/T4, well...

Don't underestimate the power of +1 to-hit Gretchin with DakkaDakkaDakka and RR1's (Bad Moons).

IF ALL THE RUMORS ARE TRUE, Gretchin get access to these abilities, and points costs remain the same [I can see Boyz easily going to 7ppm or higher, due to tournament/Green Tide performances...].

I don't really see how your numbers are working fe40k.

As I see it you have 3 effects.

Baseline:
2/3 to hit.
Dakkadakka:
1/6*2/3 extra hits. (Assuming its flat 6s and not effected by the surprisingly dangerous +1 to hit rule).
Reroll 1s.
1/6*(2/3+1/6*2/3) hits.

This works out as 2/3+1/6*2/3+1/6*(2/3+1/6*2/3).
Which simplifies down to 2/3*49/36 hits or 98/108 hits.
Then divide by 9 to wound and save. So 0.1008 MEQ killed per grot.
Each dead MEQ is 13 points, divided by 3 for a grot =43.68% return.

If the +1 to hit counts for dakkadakkadakka, then the results are:
2/3+2/3*2/3+1/6*(2/3+2/3*2/3).
=7/6*(2/3+2/3*2/3)=70/54. Equals 35/27.
35/27*1/9*13/3=62.41% return on your points. I.E 30 Grots would kill 7.2 MEQ.

I suspect dakkadakkadakka - if it genuinely is army wide - will be unmodified 6s as you can start to see how this becomes a silly increase in output on models with +1 to hit.

So, if you did deepstrike an absurd number of Grots they realistically could mess up a marine horde list. The marine player would then HAVE to deal with them, and that would take at least a couple turns. Worth it I'd say.

I wonder how viable they'd be against necron, Tau, or IG.

did wonder on deep striking grots, perhaps not quite that many (I don't have that many, yet), now they appear to be able to provide protection to other units just dropping 30 of them in front of the enemy firebase will divert at least some fire to remove them, if they just buy a bit of time its worth it.

not worth going mad though, two grots is another ork in the line, so maybe add a shield unit, but going mad is less likely to help, but will be funny as fork

How many models have +1 to-hit?

Gretchin, when 20+; DakkaJets when firing at the same target; other jets with Gretchin gunners; FW vehicle with Grot Sponsons; FW Grot Mega Tank when you roll a 6 for shooting... and what else?

I honestly don't forsee them changing, on the simple basis of Plasma/Tesla/all the other effects that trigger on +1's; none of them have been changed. None of them are army wide, but... still.

Also, here's how my calculations break down:
First volley
/Total hits
[30]*.666*.333*.333 = 2.215 MEQ slain
(30 shots)*(BS3+)*(5+ to wound)*(Sv3+, 1/3 get through) = final total
[30*.666*.5] = 9.99 new attacks
(30 shots)*(BS3+)*(since you trigger extra attacks on 5-6, half of the shots (3/4/5/6) will be extra attacks) = final new attacks
/Total misses
[10.02*.5]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.369 MEQ slain
(total missed shots)*(since you miss on 1-2 only, half of the shots (1) will be re-rolled)*(BS3+)*(5+ to wound)*(Sv3+, 1/3 get through) = final slain from RR1's
[10.02*.5*.666*.5] = 1.668 new attacks
(total missed shots)*(since you miss on 1-2 only, half of the shots (1) will be re-rolled)*(BS3+)*(since you trigger extra attacks on 5-6, half of the shots (3/4/5/6) will be extra attacks) = new attacks, from converted misses

Don't forget to RR1's when do a new round of attacks as well (looks like you covered it in your math).

Please help me find out where my math is wrong; I'd love to know the correct forumlas so I can use them in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated above post with how I got my numbers. I didn't type out the comments in red for the Second volley of attacks (extra generated), since it follows the same math as the initial Hits/Misses/RR1's calculations.

fe40k wrote:
How many models have +1 to-hit?

Gretchin, when 20+; DakkaJets when firing at the same target; other jets with Gretchin gunners; FW vehicle with Grot Sponsons; FW Grot Mega Tank when you roll a 6 for shooting... and what else?

True enough.

Still - I struggle with them making Grots some of the most lethal shooting in the game and just leaving it there.

Grots are very point efficient, when:

1) They have 20+ members remaining (which should only ever be the round they drop in)
2) Aren't against a -1 to-hit modifier.

The moment they encounter that -1, to negate their +1; their ability to trigger extra attacks is cut significantly, as is the amount of dice re-rolled by RR1's.

Runtherds cost points too; without a Runtherd, the entire squad will straight run when the morale phase comes around - Ld4 is a liability.

I think it's hilarious; but probably only strongest on the 20PL Teleport stratagem - outside of that, it's unreliable and super short ranged (12" is nothing).

Maybe I've got it wrong.

///Solved. Yes. Before I had the effect going off 2/3rd of the time when it should only been on 5s and 6s. The following should be correct:

Take 30 dice.
Roll them once. Lets assume for the sake of argument you get 5 of each face. So 5 "1s", 5, "6s", etc.

So flat you have 20 hits.
Put the 5 1s to one side.
You then pick up the 10 5s and 6s and roll them again for additional shots. 10*2/3= 20/3 additional hits.
You also get a further 10/6 1s. Set them to one side.

Now pick up your 1s - you have 5+10/6, so 40/6.
You can roll them again and repeat the process above ignoring the last stage.
So 40/6*2/3=80/18 hits.

Finally pick up the 5s and 6s - so 80/36 and roll them again for an additional 80/36*2/3=160/108 hits.

So in total we have: 20+20/3+80/18+160/108 hits. This breaks down to 3520/108=32.59 hits.
32.59*1/3 to wound. Times 1/3 to pass armour=3.62 dead MEQ. Which results in 47.06 points, divided by 90 (3*30 grots) results in a 52.3% return. Which is still pretty good.

More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.

 warhead01 wrote:
More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.

This is another reason that grots and warbosses make for a great team!

 ikeulhu wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.

This is another reason that grots and warbosses make for a great team!

I mean the survivors in the target unit...Not the Grots!

So did I, the Warboss can potentially provide decent cleanup, while also helping keep the grots in line!

Tyel wrote:
Maybe I've got it wrong.

///Solved. Yes. Before I had the effect going off 2/3rd of the time when it should only been on 5s and 6s. The following should be correct:

Take 30 dice.
Roll them once. Lets assume for the sake of argument you get 5 of each face. So 5 "1s", 5, "6s", etc.

So flat you have 20 hits.
Put the 5 1s to one side.
You then pick up the 10 5s and 6s and roll them again for additional shots. 10*2/3= 20/3 additional hits.
You also get a further 10/6 1s. Set them to one side.

Now pick up your 1s - you have 5+10/6, so 40/6.
You can roll them again and repeat the process above ignoring the last stage.
So 40/6*2/3=80/18 hits.

Finally pick up the 5s and 6s - so 80/36 and roll them again for an additional 80/36*2/3=160/108 hits.

So in total we have: 20+20/3+80/18+160/108 hits. This breaks down to 3520/108=32.59 hits.
32.59*1/3 to wound. Times 1/3 to pass armour=3.62 dead MEQ. Which results in 47.06 points, divided by 90 (3*30 grots) results in a 52.3% return. Which is still pretty good.

Are you re-rolling the 1s when you're picking up the 5s and 6s? It looks like you are, but math is hard for me.

Either way, 20-30Grots+DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1's is a real solid value - albeit one that's easily reduced (-1 to hit, less than 20 models, cover; etc).

You guys keep forgetting, 150grots only costs 600pts. In a 2k point tournament you have 1,400 more points to play with, so you could theoretically deep strike with that strat all those grotz, use Da Jump on 30 Boyz (180pts) AND have 45 Kommandos show up turn 2 (405pts) and have a grand total of 75 boyz and 150 grotz within 9' turn 2 for the low price of 1185pts leaving you with 815pts for other HQs and buffing units or whatever floats your boat....say a Painboy on a bike to bum rush forward to give a bit of extra durability?

Aren’t Grots 3ppm?

If so, that’s 450points for 150 Grots; giving us that much more room to work with. Personally, I might drop 30grots to bring in 4 runtherds, just to make them immovable blocks.

I like the sound of Grots/Boyz/Kommandos hitting their lines in unison.

I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.

Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!

Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!

 warhead01 wrote:
I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.

Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!

Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!

Well, Gretchin don't have Mob Rule and can't benefit according to the FAQ.

I like to Jump Shooty units in as well. Had 30 Gretchin jump in front (well behind) a warboss, shoot Dakka Dakka, charge, and still only caused 2 wounds. Still kept him in CC long enough for real bruises to arrive.

Love the grotz.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.

Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!

Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!

Well, Gretchin don't have Mob Rule and can't benefit according to the FAQ.

I like to Jump Shooty units in as well. Had 30 Gretchin jump in front (well behind) a warboss, shoot Dakka Dakka, charge, and still only caused 2 wounds. Still kept him in CC long enough for real bruises to arrive.

Love the grotz.

Which faq? I haven't seen it.

Dakkadakkadakka was spoilt! ^ auto hits and generates another shot

 davou wrote:
Dakkadakkadakka was spoilt! ^ auto hits and generates another shot

Where?