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 warhead01 wrote:
On topic. Zoundz Assault 3 shootas would be wild. Is this just wishlisting or is it something we're actually expecting?

Wishlisting at this point. It's unlikely to happen since Shootas are on par with Boltguns point for point. However Big Shootas need a significant buff.

 Weazel wrote:

fe40k wrote:
An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.

Well the thing is saying our shots don't matter is largely hyperbole.

10 Grey Hunters with Boltguns vs 22 Shootaboyz (~130 pts) shooting at a T4 target, rapid-fire range.

20 Shots vs 44 Shots
13 hits vs 17 hits
6.5 wounds vs 8.5 wounds.

Orks actually put out more dakka point for point than marines.

Now I know you talked about hit modifiers and I agree that they hurt Orks more than say marines, but it's pretty hard to balance shooting around hit modifiers without tipping to the realm of overpowered when hit modifiers are not in effect. Not every game is against Alaitoc after all. If you face some hard to hit girly elves go attach a Choppa to their face instead?

1. Everybody knows marines suck at 13 points. Contact marmatag for details. We don't want to suck, thank you very much.
2. Marines do not get their damage from their bolter dudes, they get if from their special and heavy weapons. Meanwhile ork boyz get their damage from punching stuff in the face. Might as well compare a landraider to a stompa.

 Weazel wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
On topic. Zoundz Assault 3 shootas would be wild. Is this just wishlisting or is it something we're actually expecting?

Wishlisting at this point. It's unlikely to happen since Shootas are on par with Boltguns point for point. However Big Shootas need a significant buff.

I think your right. Back in 3rd I could take 4 big shootas, 12 shots would kill about 2 marines a turn reliably. so 4 or 5 , shots a big shoota would be nice or more big shootas in the mob. More is always preferable to less!
I'm reading some stratagem speculation but it's also probably wishlisting still. Things to give Orks more shots or better hits would be much smiles upon.

Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.

I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

That trike hq is what they intend you to buy. Note they ask what hq could keep up and then show "this can".

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.

I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.

I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution

I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )

At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )

At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me

Dude those are mahoosive shells. For sure. They even painted them red

Stats-wise is hard, I'm guessing they'll be at least Dakkagun level so Ass 3 18" S5 AP 0 is the base. Perhaps shorter range but more punch given they're shotguns? Ass 4 12" S5 AP -1?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )

At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me

Dude those are mahoosive shells. For sure. They even painted them red

Stats-wise is hard, I'm guessing they'll be at least Dakkagun level so Ass 3 18" S5 AP 0 is the base. Perhaps shorter range but more punch given they're shotguns? Ass 4 12" S5 AP -1?

Yeah I guess they're just very orky shotguns. However, assuming they are shotguns I'll be a bit sad if the don't have two statlines. Meaning if their stats are Assualt 3 18" S5 AP 0 D1, then I hope the get +1S/+1 to hit within half range

Or, and this might be more fun, they can actually load grenade rounds into the shotgun so it has a second profile. Something like a tankbusta statwise

So one thing that I'm thinking of doing is: If the strategem allows multiple units to be placed in reserve. You drop 60 grots in between the bulk of your force and the enemy. Behind the grots you drop either 1 or 2 painboys, depending on preference, That way the 2 grot mobs get the 6+++. Then if the enemy fires past them you can pop the grot shield strategem, pass off wounds on a 2+ only for another chance to save it on a 6+++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

The TrikeBoss is the HQ they intend for you to use. They also said that it can almost make an outrider detachment and that you would need an HQ, ala TRIKERBOSS.

Speculation on price hwere, but given the contents of the box, 2x bikes kits ($41 each) and 2x buggies no price yet but probably close to the trukk price ($37 each) plus small -medium scatter terrain bits (another ($40) most GW games like this have a 40-50% (total here is $195) markdown on kits so my hope is $99 box, might be as high as $120, but hopefully GW realized the psychological effect of a price under $100.

given the comparison of the $80 gangs of commoragh set i see it being more expensive due to the larger buggies hence the $99 guess

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Speculation on price hwere, but given the contents of the box, 2x bikes kits ($41 each) and 2x buggies no price yet but probably close to the trukk price ($37 each) plus small -medium scatter terrain bits (another ($40) most GW games like this have a 40-50% (total here is $195) markdown on kits so my hope is $99 box, might be as high as $120, but hopefully GW realized the psychological effect of a price under $100.

given the comparison of the $80 gangs of commoragh set i see it being more expensive due to the larger buggies hence the $99 guess

100 would be a great price and basically a no brained "buy 2 or more" for most Ork players unless they are swimming in warbikers.

Thinking about it.... the start collecting green skins box that has the boar boyz, chariot, and boar boss is basically a snakebites version of this set.

Thinking about it.... the start collecting green skins box that has the boar boyz, chariot, and boar boss is basically a snakebites version of this set.

I like that idea

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution

-1 to AP is all they need to become awesome. Also, who cares about space marine players? Just because their rules suck doesn't mean ours need to do as well.

 Jidmah wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution

-1 to AP is all they need to become awesome. Also, who cares about space marine players? Just because their rules suck doesn't mean ours need to do as well.

-1 ap for what their gun should be would be welcome sure, but even with -1ap i do not think thier dakka gunz would make them worth the current 27 points. average of 1 hit per model and only 18 inch range. I think that is a 19-20 point model with a -1AP and a 17-18 point model as is.

as for the space marine i meant from a making them durable enough to justify the points scale. adding a wound or armor save. I am not saying GW should care, just that they do and the amount of greif i already see from mega nobz even existing (IE people saying orks cannot make thigns that are worthy of a 2+ save) is high already.

Ap-1 would be cool. Orks have some trouble with good armour values. Depends on how many points they'll be as well but an extra shot per dakkagun would help quite a bit in addition.. S6 might be interesting otherwise, makes clearing chaff easier

It's really the nobz on warbikes that need a lot of changes IMO. Those guys need a crazy point drop

Maybe extra attacks on the charge?

PiñaColada wrote:
Ap-1 would be cool. Orks have some trouble with good armour values. Depends on how many points they'll be as well but an extra shot per dakkagun would help quite a bit in addition.. S6 might be interesting otherwise, makes clearing chaff easier

It's really the nobz on warbikes that need a lot of changes IMO. Those guys need a crazy point drop

Maybe extra attacks on the charge?

My kingdom for a 5++ when advancing on Warbikes and a 4++ when advancing on Nob Bikes.

Dakkaguns need to be AP-1, it is known.

Make it so GW!

I've not played my ork bikers once in all of 8th due to how bad they have been. I have committed the great sin of giving in to the hope of a better, brighter, greener tomorrow. I sure do hope GW gets the points right on bikers. Also if Ork guns could get a MEATY point drop or a rate of fire boost (big shoota please) that would be great. As is Orks pay marine prices for guns (already high) for BS5+ stats.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've not played my ork bikers once in all of 8th due to how bad they have been. I have committed the great sin of giving in to the hope of a better, brighter, greener tomorrow. I sure do hope GW gets the points right on bikers. Also if Ork guns could get a MEATY point drop or a rate of fire boost (big shoota please) that would be great. As is Orks pay marine prices for guns (already high) for BS5+ stats.

The kustom shoota better get a big drop (in percentage that is). 4 points for a sort of storm bolter when the beakies pay 2? The deathwatch stormbolters are 4 points and those things are amazing. Change them to 1 points each and we'll give all the 'umies some dakka

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution

Three buffs they might pull for 3rd edition are making warbikes fearless, giving them a dust cloud save that also benefits other units and letting them fire their dakkaguns in a turn they charged rather than making normal melee attacks.

I wonder if Snakebites FNP will work on Ammo Runts and Squigs

EDIT.. does it work on those models now?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.

GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.

Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.

I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.

I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution

They should bring back the old smoke cloud rule and give them a cover save

 Rismonite wrote:
I wonder if Snakebites FNP will work on Ammo Runts and Squigs

EDIT.. does it work on those models now?

Ammo Runts and Bomb Squigs are part of ork units, so any ability which works on their parent units will probably work on them. The closest parallel I can think of would be an Iron Hand armorium cherub, which does benefit from the flesh is weak.

 Weazel wrote:
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

No-one's complaining about a free rule (at least no-one I've seen). My concern is that GW will look at Dakka Dakka Dakka and say "Right, we've fixed Ork shooting units" and walk away patting themselves on the back. In reality Ork shooting units are mostly overcosted for what they do and Dakka Dakka Dakka will do nothing to change that. It's great on Tankbustas, and if it works on KMKs then all the better, but for all the rest of the Ork shooting units it doesn't make them viable.

There's also anger over this being a missed opportunity. Always hitting on 6's ignores the reality that if the enemy has any modifers to hit, our shooting units that aren't manned by Grots suffer a 50% reduction in firepower. Lootas that are hitting on 6's are a bad investment, and getting a couple of extra attacks that will usually miss as well doesn't change that. Making Orks ignore all modifers (excepting units that hit ona 4+ because they bother to aim) would be just as fluffy and would make Ork shooting units potentially viable. But instead we get a rule that is going to have very little impact outside of allowing us to shoot at all at some targets. Because if you've forced most of my shooting units to hit on 6's you've already neutered them to the point of ineffectiveness anyway.

 Glane wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

No-one's complaining about a free rule (at least no-one I've seen). My concern is that GW will look at Dakka Dakka Dakka and say "Right, we've fixed Ork shooting units" and walk away patting themselves on the back. In reality Ork shooting units are mostly overcosted for what they do and Dakka Dakka Dakka will do nothing to change that. It's great on Tankbustas, and if it works on KMKs then all the better, but for all the rest of the Ork shooting units it doesn't make them viable.

There's also anger over this being a missed opportunity. Always hitting on 6's ignores the reality that if the enemy has any modifers to hit, our shooting units that aren't manned by Grots suffer a 50% reduction in firepower. Lootas that are hitting on 6's are a bad investment, and getting a couple of extra attacks that will usually miss as well doesn't change that. Making Orks ignore all modifers (excepting units that hit ona 4+ because they bother to aim) would be just as fluffy and would make Ork shooting units potentially viable. But instead we get a rule that is going to have very little impact outside of allowing us to shoot at all at some targets. Because if you've forced most of my shooting units to hit on 6's you've already neutered them to the point of ineffectiveness anyway.

100% THIS.

DakkaDakkaDakka does NOT fix any of the critical issues with Ork shooting, but it gives GW an opportunity to think "Hey, this buff is huge! Also, if they roll 6's, they've doubled their firepower, for free!" - then they walk away from the rest of the issue.

How many times have you legitimately wanted to use DakkaDakkaDakka on an Ork unit?

Worse yet; I highly suspect that "Always hitting on 6's" will become a core rule in Chapter Approved 2018 - which means the only benefit we get is having it a little earlier, and having a CHANCE (1/36) at generating an extra HIT. Which still has to go through Wound/Armor Save/FNP.

100 shots = ~2.7 extra HITS.

Go ahead and tell me you a) take that much shooting in the first place, and b) ~2.7 HITS is a reasonable buff, and will solve all our shooting woes.

It's a joke.

As an Ork player that has Shelved my army for 3 editions now... I feel the pain here, but.... You all do realize there are OTHER armies out there that do shooting proper right?

Im forced into using a 30 boyz Shoota mob because 130 Slugga Boyz just isn't enough and I only have 30 more Shoota boyz in my collection, but I don't expect them to do much realistically.

I'll use Da Jump on them if a target presents itself, but mostly back field them, or use as a Mob Rule bump.

People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
As an Ork player that has Shelved my army for 3 editions now... I feel the pain here, but.... You all do realize there are OTHER armies out there that do shooting proper right?

Im forced into using a 30 boyz Shoota mob because 130 Slugga Boyz just isn't enough and I only have 30 more Shoota boyz in my collection, but I don't expect them to do much realistically.

I'll use Da Jump on them if a target presents itself, but mostly back field them, or use as a Mob Rule bump.

People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.

But people want to play ork shooting lists because of how it is portrayed in the fluff.
IG is probably as close to real world armies as you'll get in 40k (still not particularly close), but as an ork player that's not what I'm after.
Each individual ork should not be "good" at shooting things (the exceptions are big meks with their weird passion-project firearms, but that's another discussion). It also shouldn't matter that one ork is bad at shooting because there's never just one ork shooting at you.
Ork shooting shouldn't be viable because it's accurate, it should be viable because it is such a monstrously large wall of dakka that it doesn't need to be. That's the feeling of ork shooting that makes it different.
Can you do a massed horde of guns with IG? Yes, if you like rank-and-file, standard-issue dudes fighting for their very existence by all means, go have fun and do your thing.
But that's not what draws people to orks (or at least not me).
I want to do a big wall of gun-toting green that sprays so much in your general direction that you'll get hit eventually (I'm one of the weirdos who likes rolling lots of dice).

TL;DR, IG can shoot good, but they can't dakka.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.

But shooting has always been a major part of the Ork identity. You can go all the way back to Rogue Trader; Orks have always had a lot of guns and enjoy shooting them. That can still be seen today; half the Ork army list is shooting focused units, and virtually all of our units have guns strapped onto them that we MUST pay for. Take Warbikers; it would be fine for example if we could field them as pure assault units, but instead we must pay for a pair of Dakkaguns that push the points cost up. It's virtually impossible to play an Ork list that doesn't shoot, because so much of the stuff in our codex has guns, and we're not talking Sluggas here; we're talking Big Shootas, Rokkits, Dakkaguns.

Furthermore 8th edition is set up that we almost have to have shooting. I can't assault a bunch of Devestators on the upper level of a building because I can't physically place the models up there. I can't use a Warboss or MANZ missile to take out enemy vehicles because Power Klaws (and all their equivalents) are a joke against vehicles now. I can't charge in against tanks and artillery screened by units without shooting those units out first. And yet our shooting is so bad that we commonly can't do any of that.

So instead we take 180 Boyz, squat on objectives and pray the clock runs out before we get wiped. It's boring to play and boring to play against. But doing other stuff, like playing fluffy Ork lists where we take a mix of ramshackle vehicles, a Nob retinue for our boss, some grot artillery and some speshulists to go along with our Boyz is just an exercise in frustration.