Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slightly off centre. Do we know if Orkz will get a new boyz kit with this release? Surely GW must be holding something big back?

If they did I think I would be very tempted to get a small army - whilst waiting for new CSMs.

Boyz are almost guaranteed to not get a new kit, since the models in the box are the same ones as for all other plastic orks similar to boyz in the entire range.

I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.

Hasn't been mentioned yet to my knowledge, but since all the new buggies have very specific (and trademarked names) I would assume the old buggies would be Index options for now, and should still be allowed clan keywords.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.

If the datasheet isn't in the new codex you can use the index. Admittedly one day they will almost certainly take away the ability (9th edition perhaps) but for now you can do this unless they were to explicitly say you can't.

As I see it you would get clan traits because <Clan> is on the datasheet. You wouldn't however get DDD because that special rule is not in the index datasheets.
(At least that would be my rules lawyer interpretation, a tournament might decide that if all Ork units get DDD the index ones can too.)

Tyel wrote:

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.

If the datasheet isn't in the new codex you can use the index. Admittedly one day they will almost certainly take away the ability (9th edition perhaps) but for now you can do this unless they were to explicitly say you can't.

As I see it you would get clan traits because <Clan> is on the datasheet. You wouldn't however get DDD because that special rule is not in the index datasheets.
(At least that would be my rules lawyer interpretation, a tournament might decide that if all Ork units get DDD the index ones can too.)

As someone who has built up quite a few kustom versions of the old-skool buggies I really hope they get dakkadakkadakka and the <speedfreeks> keyword. I mean, they're getting axed by GW at some point, probably 9th or in this/next CA but I'd still like to use them some more. Otherwise I'm mekking them together to create a kitbash of one of the new buggies

I really hope gw address all the points issues with orks in the new codex, so many units are costed to match space marine/imperial units while being worse versions in almost all respects.

I’d say every walker/vehicle in the ork book needs a points drop.

Guyver 3 wrote:
I really hope gw address all the points issues with orks in the new codex, so many units are costed to match space marine/imperial units while being worse versions in almost all respects.

I’d say every walker/vehicle in the ork book needs a points drop.

Problem seems to be GW price weapons for the damage they could do, not for what they typically will do, they also have no concept of how to factor a models robustness into the cost, hence stuff like an Ork Tankbusta being expensive when they have a life expectancy in seconds and carry a weapon that will likely miss on the only chance it gets to fire - being priced as if its hitting every single turn...

Ork vehicles either need a price drop or a significant uplift in the wound count for the robustness and weapons need to drop to account for the BS5+.

Boyz going up a point I have no issues with, you can still spam them at 7 points if you want, but combined with other stuff going down it provides a reason to have a more mixed army

Wot ‘e said.

Either lower points or more dakka.

Orks are in that difficult position

Some Orky weapons are insanely good in a vacuum it’s only when you factor in bad saves,bad bs and 0 survivability in a meta that meq and teq struggles in that you realise they aren’t worth the points.

So, not to repost what ive stated in another thread, but that thread hasnt got activity in weeks, and I would like to add to the discussion:

Since we know that there are 6 main clans but we've seen rules for 7, and the general thinking is that Freebootas are the odd ones out, what if Freebootas somehow gain a rule that lets them be allied in with other factions?
It makes sense in the fluff since freebootas get hired by other races and such, and it would help out in gameplay as well.
It would allow alliances with tau, and strangely necrons, which are factions that need help and would greatly boost the effectiveness of Orks.
My thinking would be that if such a thing happened, the lust would have to be built that the FB can only have one detachment and the other detachments must be the same allied factipn or else tau/ ork/ necron alliances and therefore xenos soup would be an option.
I would also imagine somethibg orecentinf alliances with nids and that speaks for itself.

My guess is that Freebootas keyword will be limited to Badrukk and Flash Gitz, will have a stratagem associated with it and units with the keyword will be able to fit into any faction-keyword Orks detachment without negating any Klan effects. I don't expect we will be able to ally with other factions and personally I would prefer it that way.

Similar to triarch units in the necron book
You can fit them in any necron detachment without losing the detachment bonuses, I’m guessing freebootas will have a similar rule.

Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

leopard wrote:
Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)

We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing

 Mr Morden wrote:

leopard wrote:
Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)

We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing

It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.

Like others have said, I expect that Freebooterz will likely be similar to the auxillaries that IG and Tau have that can be part of a detachment without losing the Clan Kultur. It is definitely possible that they'll get their own Clan-equivalent rules, but I would guess they'll probably just get a couple stratagems.

I doubt this will be the case, but I think it would be interesting if Freebooterz was a clan keyword that you could give to ork units where they didn't get any Clan Kultur rule but got access to every clan-specific stratagem.

I have mixed feeling on Flash Gitz all being Freebooterz. As a Bad Moon player I feel like I'm missing out in one of our iconic units. On the other hand in some sources all Flash Gitz are said to eventually become Freebooterz, with Bad Moons just being the most common source (some other sources make it sound like there are Flash Gitz that still belong to a clan). Oh well, if they make Kustom and Kombi shootas worthwhile having Flash Gitz all be Freebootaz won't bother me that much.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

leopard wrote:
Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)

We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing

It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.

I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.

I mean what do you guys want?

Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.

We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.

For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.

If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.

Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...

People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

leopard wrote:
Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)

We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing

It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.

I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.

That's a pity, they did do a good job with Zhadsnark, the Mega/Meka-Dred and the Kill tanks. IA8 was one of my favourite IA books by far, though after seeing the moolah from 30K, I'm not surprised to see them say NOPE to xenos. Look at how long they're taking to release Fires of Cyraxus.

The upgrade stratagems for boyz is an interesting way of doing things. I wonder if they will have a different version for each clan or if they'll just have Skarboyz for Goffs and 'Ardboyz as a universal?

One problem is that the cost doesn't change with the size of the mob. The upgrade stratagems might be great for 30 boyz but terrible for 10. Maybe that's a way for them to try to keep ork players from going extreme MSU to generate tons of CP? From the Goff standpoint a green tide list is pretty fluffy. It seems like a lot of people have mechanized 'Ard Boy armies, which wouldn't do so well with the rumored 'Ard Boyz stratagem at 2 CP.

Maybe they'll price it based on the size of the mob? Like 1 CP for 10 Boyz, 2 CP for 11-20, and 3 CP for 21-30?

It also has me thinking about other possible upgrade stratagems. Cyborks, Madboyz, Trukk Boyz, etc.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

leopard wrote:
Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff

It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)

We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing

It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.

I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.

And then they do stupid things like they are doing with the speed freakz game. My game store has 2 on order for the store....zero pre-orders for players. Almost nobody wants to pay $150 for 6 warbikes and 2 unknown quality Buggies. How about the "Ork" get started box set that has a Dread (One of the worst vehicles in the game) some boyz, a painboy and nobz.....almost none of that is worth playing at the moment and we lack a HQ now that they moved painboyz to Elite. Then we have our Kill team set....4 burnas and a Mek......again, who needs/wants burnas and a mek? Maybe the problem isn't that Ork players don't buy GW stuff, its that GW doesn't know how to price/market ork stuff. Ive been modeling Kommandos for awhile now because I refuse to pay $45 for 5 models worth 45pts

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.

I mean what do you guys want?

Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.

We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.

For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.

If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.

Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...

People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.

The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.

SemperMortis wrote:
And then they do stupid things like they are doing with the speed freakz game. My game store has 2 on order for the store....zero pre-orders for players. Almost nobody wants to pay $150 for 6 warbikes and 2 unknown quality Buggies. How about the "Ork" get started box set that has a Dread (One of the worst vehicles in the game) some boyz, a painboy and nobz.....almost none of that is worth playing at the moment and we lack a HQ now that they moved painboyz to Elite. Then we have our Kill team set....4 burnas and a Mek......again, who needs/wants burnas and a mek? Maybe the problem isn't that Ork players don't buy GW stuff, its that GW doesn't know how to price/market ork stuff. Ive been modeling Kommandos for awhile now because I refuse to pay $45 for 5 models worth 45pts

None of that has anything to do with FW though. There are two reasons to buy from FW since 5th edition
1) To have rules that do something the codex can't/the codex does worse. Hasn't happened a lot due to FW legendary insight on rules-writing, but supa-cannons, Zhadsnark, flakkatrukk, warkoptas or big trakks fall into this category. Depending on price, you actually see the original models, but most are still scratch-build, because the players want the rules, not the model.
2) To have centerpiece or unique model that makes your army unique. This is the kind of players the whole FW range aims to please, to have something to sell for those who spend a lot of money on the hobby for a long time. Ork players usually create those models themselves, because building your own klawstompa, mega dread, killtank or battlefortress is part of the appear of collecting orks. Last, but not least, it is a lot easier to do than building your own warhound titan or sicarian and the results often look better than what FW has to offer. Any infantry unit they would create is just ork boyz or nob + bits, so that wouldn't sell great either.

In general, the entire FW range is aimed at collectors and hobbyist, not at competitive players. Ork collectors and hobbyists usually don't dump hundreds of pounds on a model that looks exactly like a model that someone else has.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.

If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.

Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...

People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.

The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.

Where are the Orks winning tourneys if they are "as competitively priced [as Imperial Guard]". You are assuming an Ork Boy is able to do optimal damage every round while ignoring morale like an Imperial Guardsman, which just isn't true.
Claiming "...no concept of balance whatsover..." while ignoring that is just plain hypocrisy; and frankly damn rude.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.

Yet again we're paying (right now) 420+ points for an optimal three troop choice for a Battalion, where's the "Easy" CP?

Also as mentioned earlier in the thread. Boyz are moving to a larger base which yet again makes it harder for them to be optimal (as compared to sit and roll dice of the IG).
Math hammer works only if you're willing to take into account all the variables. Lets also not forget the whole shebang of soup cherry picking that all Imperial munchkins do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.

They aren't when sub standard gunline blows 60+ a turn. More if you use da jump. Ork boyz didn't get into combat with index and now there's going to be lot less of them. 240 boyz(so that some might actually get into combat), 240 pts more to dig somewhere. That's 40 boyz. 200 boyz=you are out of boyz on turn 4. so if you go 2nd you get to charge line of chaff on T3 with your whopping 20 boyz and then on T4 your opponent blows them up.

I shudder to think how many boyz GOOD gunline(especially one that has not tons of lascannons and equilavent in in) blows up a turn. If not even optimized list that packs tons of low-ROF high S tank busting guns blows 60+ models a turn...

It takes long time to get to combat, orks aren't even all that tough and orks lost all they had in combat when 8th ed hit. They don't pack punch(vehicles just laugh at orks) and either they wipe out chaff unit(wee! chaff that's not even contributing to the shooting all that much dies...whoo!) or chaff simply leaves and you get blown apart. So you struggle to reach combat, get most of your guys shot and then when you get you just deal with some chaff and even if you somehow get into combat with something beefy like tank that's blowing up huge chunks of your units you don't actually make a dent in it! It takes full unit of boyz to cause even 6 wounds to leman russ and no IG player who is better than a newbie will let that happen anyway. Why would he? Easy to either shoot your units <20(which cuts down punch a lot) and/or ensures you don't have speed to get all into combat anyway. And even that is on turn 4+ anyway due to chaff being used to block before and on turn 4 you have lost 180-240 boyz depending on who went first.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.

They aren't when sub standard gunline blows 60+ a turn. More if you use da jump. Ork boyz didn't get into combat with index and now there's going to be lot less of them. 240 boyz(so that some might actually get into combat), 240 pts more to dig somewhere. That's 40 boyz. 200 boyz=you are out of boyz on turn 4. so if you go 2nd you get to charge line of chaff on T3 with your whopping 20 boyz and then on T4 your opponent blows them up.

I shudder to think how many boyz GOOD gunline(especially one that has not tons of lascannons and equilavent in in) blows up a turn. If not even optimized list that packs tons of low-ROF high S tank busting guns blows 60+ models a turn...

It takes long time to get to combat, orks aren't even all that tough and orks lost all they had in combat when 8th ed hit. They don't pack punch(vehicles just laugh at orks) and either they wipe out chaff unit(wee! chaff that's not even contributing to the shooting all that much dies...whoo!) or chaff simply leaves and you get blown apart. So you struggle to reach combat, get most of your guys shot and then when you get you just deal with some chaff and even if you somehow get into combat with something beefy like tank that's blowing up huge chunks of your units you don't actually make a dent in it! It takes full unit of boyz to cause even 6 wounds to leman russ and no IG player who is better than a newbie will let that happen anyway. Why would he? Easy to either shoot your units <20(which cuts down punch a lot) and/or ensures you don't have speed to get all into combat anyway. And even that is on turn 4+ anyway due to chaff being used to block before and on turn 4 you have lost 180-240 boyz depending on who went first.

But should a slow foot horde really win against a proper gunline? I think tactics wise its like assulting a machinegun nest from the front with infantry waves, wich would loose. The counter should be rapid or armoured elements right? Now i know deep striking is hard because of the chaff. But maybe the new buggies will provide some fast distruption units with enough durability and quantity for the task?

We allready know the cost of buggies. They won't be that useful. Especially not for footsloggers.

Anywayz, i don't think that it's all that bad. Trukks went down around 20 pts each. Probably tankbustas will. So, 2 trukks with tb is around 50 pts off from what they are now.

If you're running snakebites, blood axez or deffskullz, that's a durability increase right there.

We also get greentide strategem that reses a squad of boyz. Deepstrike strategem - best used with evil sunz - to get into combat from the get go. Also, an awesome fight twice strategem.

So far, we don't need to rebase all the boyz.

We have slight improvements here and there.

Grotshields.

Overall, i think it's gona be a slight improvement even for hordes. Yes, you're goba have less boyz but they'll be tougher, will hit harder and will have more wayz of getting into combat. Besides, it's a knight meta, so 7 ppm boyz are still an anti-meta for many armies. And now when we get 6++ we actually get a save without paying for a kff mek. Consider this 1 ppm to be half a mek without all the hassle of playing around with positioning.

Sensibly, infantry charge vs gun line should be a bad choice. Suppression of the gun line plus infiltration tactics, or isolation of the line and besieging the position would be better. Neither option is viable for a five turn, 40k game.

A gamer can only work within game parameters. If the game does not have the tools to give an even chance of winning, it fails as a game. What would apply to ‘real life’ might not be workable in a game.

Hence the irritation of Ork players. The game dictates their choices, then does not give them an even chance of winning.

 koooaei wrote:
We allready know the cost of buggies. They won't.

I'm going to start collecting all these doomsayer quotes (not just yours) and use them as my signature until the next codex if you are wrong. I still remember people going on rants for pages and pages about how GW ruined boyz in 8th when the indexes dropped.