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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did you guys see the RLM tweet about Icheb? Did that really happen?

I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!

I just saw the RLM episode a couple of minutes ago!

That's hilarious - obviously in a dark, bizarre, twisted kind of way...

 Overread wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's like the Fellowship of the Ring - even more so in book form. If you base your view of Lord of the Rings based on its slow start you miss all that it sets up.

I haven’t read those books (crucify me later).

No no I think the time is now!! Clearly you've managed to avoid your punishment for far too long!!

Still you could redeem yourself! You can start with The Hobbit - heck if I recall right you could even make a double start and read the story with/to the sproglet that I recall you mentioning. Along with exposing to proper 80-90s cartoons its a duty to make sure that the foundation of so much fantasy is revealed to them as well!

Plus you could get one of those fancy illustrated editions of the books

Solid thought is solid,

My first pressie for her first birthday was a hardbacked encyclopaedia of Fairies,

It’s both fantastical and factual at the same time, Every entry has the folklore, but also the possible real world basis.

I’ll focus on the former, for now, because I’m quite sure shattering childhood illusions when she’s this wee is a dick move even Pierec’d Moron wouldn’t pull?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did you guys see the RLM tweet about Icheb? Did that really happen?

I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!

Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Now I have seen footage of it. Icheb gets tortured and mutilated, and has to be mercy-killed by Seven. This motivates her to become a vigilante, killing his torturers, and Picard turns a blind eye. If you don’t see why this is a problem for a Star Trek show, I don’t know what to tell you.

Ah. That makes more sense. Your original post was a bit vague in which direction your reaction was heading.
But feeling that torture porn and Seven as The Punisher is wrong for Star Trek is perfectly understandable.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did you guys see the RLM tweet about Icheb? Did that really happen?

I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!

Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Now I have seen footage of it. Icheb gets tortured and mutilated, and has to be mercy-killed by Seven. This motivates her to become a vigilante, killing his torturers, and Picard turns a blind eye. If you don’t see why this is a problem for a Star Trek show, I don’t know what to tell you.

Factually. Inaccurate,

Jean-Luc, to date, knows nothing of Icheb’s fate.

Episode six mentions former Borg facing prejudice, and given Jean-Luc’s experience with them, we see both sides of the coin.

Could you, maybe, perhaps, and I get I’m being totes rads here.....actually watch the show before you decide to whine about it?

He doesn't need to know Icheb's fate to know that Seven isnt beaming down to the planet for flowers and cookies after specifically asking for phaser rifles, and making it very clear how she feels about Evil Lady.

Picard is totally turning a blind eye to what he has to at least suspect is about to go down.
That he does it without knowing about Icheb actually makes it worse.

so episode 6 has come and is easily the best episode to date. it really addresses something that had always annoyed me TNG hadn't (the long term psychalogical damage his assimilation did to Picard. it's CLEAR he's still struggling with PTSD even 40 years later) good episode over all. really felt good and we begin to see some plot points that where long slow boiling being brought to head

I figured Picard thought Seven was going to be taking those rifles back to the Fenrisian Rangers. - She told him a ship was coming to pick her up.

I wouldn't say it was turning a blind eye, more not noticing the alarm bell...

Yeah, Picard was always kind of oblivious.


“Uh oh, spaghettios!”
—Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise

He might have thought it could go either way and that either way he couldn't stop Seven. Don't forget he knows of her more through reputation and perhaps a meeting here and there rather than any built up relationship between them. He has no authority and cannot command her to stay and part of his "grand speeches" aspect has been kicked out from under him through old age and being "left behind" by the world he once knew because he stepped out of it. Plus getting verbally put down by Starfleet and then physically put down by Romulan citizens (and former politician).

He's both out of practice and out of power

Pretty sure he thought he'd talked her out of killing the person.

Gah clifhangers
So ep6 was really good IMO, but a few musings...

So...I think I like the show but that’s because I like dark political thrillers but I’m not sure who this show is for. It’s supposed to be for die hard TNG fans and I’ve talked to a few and they don’t seem to be liking it. It’s just so not TNG. To quote one “why does Star Trek always have to be about a Dark Conspiracy now”. Once you hear that you realize it’s true. Why is this like that? Like if you want that kind of stuff do it in Discovery. A show called Star Trek Picard...should really feel like Star Trek. It should appeal to the fans who became fans because of the TNG era. Some people on the internet like to dump on that era but that Trek does have millions of fans and this show should be a tribute to them. Instead they will have to continue to get their Trek fix from The Orville I guess...

Picard dealt with several "dark conspiracies" during his tenure as merely captain of the ugliest ship in the 'verse.

If only revealing their presence. Cockroaches breed in the dark.

We're enough years removed from the TNG era that people often forget the details, and instead remember their general impressions of the show. Sure, there were "dark conspiracies" in TNG, but they weren't a common theme of the show so many people don't really remember them specifically.

But saying that makes the show equivalent is like saying Reeves Superman also killed Zod, so Superman 2 and Man of Steel are the same in tone and theme.

Watched episode 6 last night was good.

Was wondering when the Romulan Assassin was going to do anything!



Needs more Jeri Ryan though!

In terms of who does it appeal to - its farily normal Sci-fi - ie my Mother enjoys it but she likes both scifi- and violence - especially if its women kicking ass and she is not a trekie!

So I pretty much accepted this was Star Trek for people who don't like Star Trek after the first couple of episodes, and haven't been watching further.

Then I read about this whole Icheb thing. I mean, people getting their eyeballs slowly torn out in full closeup is a bit gratuitous on its own merits, but it was doubly depressing since Icheb was a cool character and gruesomely snuffing him to provide an excuse to turn Seven into a murder-happy vigilante is, to me, pretty uncool.

But the idea being floated that the whole thing was some kind of pseudo-revenge on the part of the STD writer's room because the actor who played Icheb 20-odd years ago said some mean things about the Rapp/Spacey situation on the twitters...crikey. Like, I'm not aware anyone involved has actually said that was their motivation, but given previous behaviour associated with STD cast & crew it's disturbingly believable. And if that did have something to do with it, these guys are genuinely sick in the head.

I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.

Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.

 AduroT wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.

Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.

Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.

 Formosa wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.

Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.

Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.

Star Trek has taken many forms - Next Gen is incredably different to Original Series - DS9 is different again as are the new films and Discovery.

They are all Trek - just different.

I have watched them all - Tbh I did not/do not remember Icheb and only vaguely remember Hugh....it seems more akin to DS9 than say Discovery was with killing more like OS (especially the films) but then I found Next Gen very Meh.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.

Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.

Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.

Star Trek has taken many forms - Next Gen is incredably different to Original Series - DS9 is different again as are the new films and Discovery.

They are all Trek - just different.

I have watched them all - Tbh I did not/do not remember Icheb and only vaguely remember Hugh....it seems more akin to DS9 than say Discovery was with killing more like OS (especially the films) but then I found Next Gen very Meh.

No mate, they all have the Trek brand, they are not all Trek when looked at with a critical eye.

Regardless of their differences TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, even DS9(which I've expounded on at length before so will not again) all share some core qualities that are simply absent in the Kurtzmantrek shows - they all depict a fundamentally optimistic future for humanity, one where we have overcome or are well on the way to overcoming not just the social problems of history and modernity, but the limitations and foibles of our own psychology. They depict an enlightened future, one where humanity has genuinely surpassed its present self.

In Kurtzmantrek, humanity(and seemingly every other species seen so far) are by turns narrowminded, violent, bigoted, and angry; institutions lack empathy and throw their humanitarian spirit out the window at the first sign of adversity, and we're shown that poverty and classism and other social ills have returned for no apparent reason; individual characters behave radically differently to their previous selves(witness Picard, the consummate diplomat, blunder smugly into a Romulan refugee bar and start an argument with its patrons over a sign, either just because he could, or because was trying to bait a ninja assassin into helping him and getting someone beheaded as a result; yuh-huh, yup, sure - Star Trek baby); heck, the basic concept of the Picard show, its inciting incident, depends entirely on the writers completely ignoring the clear trajectory of the story of artificial life from Measure of a Man through Quality of Life and basically every episode of Voyager that focused on the Doctor, in which time & again the sentience and value of artificial life is affirmed and the clear impression the viewer is meant to take is that the Federation is on the way to remedying its flawed attitudes towards synthetic intelligences.

This is a show created by people who watched Picard's speech in Measure of a Man and thought to themselves "a robot slave race? KEWL BRUH!!!11 and they could like rebel and pewpewPHASOR people and stuff and there could be like Borg involved cos cyborgs and androids are basically the same yeah and OMG Seven could be in it and dual-wield phaser rifles and gak bruuuuuuuh this is awesome!!!1". They can claim it's Star Trek. You can choose to think of it as Star Trek. But when it shares essentially nothing tonally or thematically with prior Trek and explicitly ignores established elements of the franchise from the small("colourful metaphors" abound) to the huge(the Federation are selfish arseholes and Starfleet apparently now consists exclusively of morons, Section 31 operatives, Synth infiltrators, and Romulan spies), I can't view it as Trek in anything but name and I think I'm entirely justified in that position.

But what about the movies where Starfleet has several times made bad choices? Heck in one there's a cell looking to go to war with the Klingon Empire; whilst in another they are looking to steal eternal life from a race.

Starfleet has always had a human side that isn't perfect, it just rarely came through save in the films or in episodes where the (esp in the pre DS9 era) highly episodic structure typically meant any challenge had to be resolved very fast.

Drugs, poverty and such we got a taste of in DS9 even down to weapons trading and the like. Whilst not considered rife within the Federation, they were certainly elements within the galactic community here and there.


As for class that's sort of always been there in the background. We've always known that captains and higher ranks do live better and have more options than lower ranks. It's just that lower ranks don't live a bad life and there is considerable social mobility within the system. Heck I'd argue there's less of a class system and more of a simple have and have-not system. Anyone has potential to rise to the high ranks, but not everyone will; and those that do, do get it better off. However there's clearly national health, social programs, free education etc.... So if you're not at the top end you're not living all that badly. Ergo there's no real poverty within the Federation (remember the Romulan world we saw was in the mostly abandoned Neutral Zone - ergo not Federation).


This series is simply taking challenges that we saw the Federation overcome before and instead of overcoming them in one sitting we are setting a longer term evolution of matters in a steadier pace. Heck we aren't even near resolutions and still in the phase of working out what is going on.

I think there's enough hints that the optimistic Federation is still there and I do have hope that everyone will pull through in the end.

But I can completely understand that fear and concern that they are just nuBSG-ing Star Trek. I completely get it.

But I do feel it's too early to judge Picard for it. - I think the end of the season may be the deciding point for it, maybe.

Even then, DS9 had the Federation completely on board with Section 31's "Genocide the Founders" plan, right up until the last few episodes of the final season.

Well said Yodhrin. You forgot about mention all the dark conspiracies though. Like each person has their own secret agenda...a darkly conspiratorial one...

No mate, they all have the Trek brand, they are not all Trek when looked at with a critical eye.

Well thats your opinion, they are versions of the same thing - I would argue Next gen was a huge departure from OS.

Regardless of their differences TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, even DS9(which I've expounded on at length before so will not again) all share some core qualities that are simply absent in the Kurtzmantrek shows - they all depict a fundamentally optimistic future for humanity, one where we have overcome or are well on the way to overcoming not just the social problems of history and modernity, but the limitations and foibles of our own psychology. They depict an enlightened future, one where humanity has genuinely surpassed its present self.

Which is EXACTLY what is shown in the images of everyone else in the Federation - happy, relateivly carefree people living in a clean, free society where pretty much all their needs are taken care of. What Picard has focussed on is the fringes and the background darker world that keeps everyone else happy.

Its like looking at the actual utopia of the Culture and saying no its adark and oppressive because of Special Circumstances and what they do, which is obviously nonsense.

In Kurtzmantrek, humanity(and seemingly every other species seen so far) are by turns narrowminded, violent, bigoted, and angry; institutions lack empathy and throw their humanitarian spirit out the window at the first sign of adversity, and we're shown that poverty and classism and other social ills have returned for no apparent reason; individual characters behave radically differently to their previous selves(witness Picard, the consummate diplomat, blunder smugly into a Romulan refugee bar and start an argument with its patrons over a sign, either just because he could, or because was trying to bait a ninja assassin into helping him and getting someone beheaded as a result; yuh-huh, yup, sure - Star Trek baby); heck, the basic concept of the Picard show, its inciting incident, depends entirely on the writers completely ignoring the clear trajectory of the story of artificial life from Measure of a Man through Quality of Life and basically every episode of Voyager that focused on the Doctor, in which time & again the sentience and value of artificial life is affirmed and the clear impression the viewer is meant to take is that the Federation is on the way to remedying its flawed attitudes towards synthetic intelligences.

No we are being shown the dark spot as a direct contrast to the bight shiny future that almost eveyone in the Federation enjoys.

This is a show created by people who watched Picard's speech in Measure of a Man and thought to themselves "a robot slave race? KEWL BRUH!!!11 and they could like rebel and pewpewPHASOR people and stuff and there could be like Borg involved cos cyborgs and androids are basically the same yeah and OMG Seven could be in it and dual-wield phaser rifles and gak bruuuuuuuh this is awesome!!!1". They can claim it's Star Trek. You can choose to think of it as Star Trek. But when it shares essentially nothing tonally or thematically with prior Trek and explicitly ignores established elements of the franchise from the small("colourful metaphors" abound) to the huge(the Federation are selfish arseholes and Starfleet apparently now consists exclusively of morons, Section 31 operatives, Synth infiltrators, and Romulan spies), I can't view it as Trek in anything but name and I think I'm entirely justified in that position.

Your opinion is as valid as mine - does not mean either of us are right. Spies and inflitrators have been in EVERY Trek series, the films both OS and original have explored many of these themes.

You do recall the Klingon/Federation consiracy and the whole plot of Undiscovered Country right? Where Kirk says "let them die" about the entire Kiling race after they killed his son...the plot is not that dissimilar.

Think of it like this - we know of fringe groups like the Marquis; that Ferangi trade guns (there have to be conflicts for them to trade weapons and profit); that gambling is a thing along with narcotics and such. Odo wasn't just a figurehead he was a police and security chief on a station basically on the rim of the Federation and there was more than enough crime even in the Federations newest Utopia.


The difference is that this series is focusing on a bigger event than Quarks latest scam. It's not over in a week and its got long lasting impacts. It's like focusing on the Marquie for a whole season as opposed to one or two episodes.

It's just like how the Dominion War wasn't the only war in Star Trek; it's just one that was big enough to dominate several seasons and result in huge changes and battles. This series much the same; its a bigger impact.



It doesn't take away from the Utopia; its looking at the practicalities, weaknesses; gaps and what is needed to protect and defend it. The struggle to maintain order and safety and equal rights.




I've also proposed the view that artificial life gets some pushback against it because whilst the Federation might not have money and consumerism as we understand it; people certainly do have jobs. These jobs are clearly a passion for many - even in lower tier jobs like repair work you've got legions of O'Brian's who are skilled and who want to work in that role. Indeed their role in life defines a big part of them. Without it you can end up with people like Scotty when he was rescued by the TNG crew. Suddenly finding himself without any required skills he had no purpose.
People in the Federation clearly draw great purpose from their jobs and clearly invest themselves heavily into them. Losing that purpose; focus and losing their progress hits them hard. In fact hard enough that when it rarely happens in a big way it can knock them off the rails into the fringe. Even though they've got loads of social security there's clearly a powerful self identity issue sitting there.

If living machines were to replace the living what purpose; reason; drive; ideals do the living have left when a machine - when a DATA - can do them all faster, better and without a break and also be just as happy to perform all those tasks?

So a friend linked me this video, I loled

Episode 7 down.

Nice to catch up with Troi and Riker. Plus I sensed some potential plot hooks thrown in.

Three more episodes to go, and I’m well into it!

The Prime Directive has always had a bit of a "them and us" line in it in so far as it separates the advanced from the primitive. The ideal being that the Federation basically follows the Vulcan viewpoint of not to interfere with other races until they show a comparable level of technology, which typically is supposed to appear at Warp Drive.

Of course breaking and bending the Prime Directive is a mandated requirement for all Starfleet captains (or at least all the ones the TV series follow).


That said the Romulans are very much not under Prime Directive protection, they are an "us" group not a "them" group. So getting involved makes sense.