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Made in us
Abel





Washington State

 Grimtuff wrote:
Forgeworld now being the pinnacle of quality?

I lolled.


Out of curiosity, what other company (companies?) that work in resin at the volumes Forge World does are better? Resin is a difficult medium to use. It has to be at the right temperature, has to be mixed correctly, has to be allowed to cure, and even with the most careful of pours, can induce air bubbles into the material.

Kromlech comes to mind for great resin models, but they do nothing close to the scale Forge World produces. Is there a company out there that does and for what game?

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

 Tamwulf wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Forgeworld now being the pinnacle of quality?

I lolled.


Out of curiosity, what other company (companies?) that work in resin at the volumes Forge World does are better? Resin is a difficult medium to use. It has to be at the right temperature, has to be mixed correctly, has to be allowed to cure, and even with the most careful of pours, can induce air bubbles into the material.

Kromlech comes to mind for great resin models, but they do nothing close to the scale Forge World produces. Is there a company out there that does and for what game?


All of the Chinese fw stuff I have has been consistently better than actual Forgeworld products.

As for PP it’s been dead in my area since right after mk3 launched. Most stores clearanced it off and no longer stock it and most people are now back to playing 40k, including me. The restic models in the new starters are basically garbage and a terrible way to introduce new players as mentioned before. The last straw was when they lied and said they had been working on mk3 since mk2 came out. With all the problems and it being an obvious rush job I totally lost faith in them. Sad as I had been playing off and on since mk1 launched.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Locally where I live the result for warmahordes is a mixed. There is decent sized group that shows up every week at one of the stores locally. A lot of same people that I saw years ago and some new faces. The group is smaller maybe 6-8 people normally. The local stores either don't carry PP stuff or have decided to stop carrying it and are trying to sell off their current stock with no plans on replacing it. That was several months ago and very little of the that stock has moved. A lot of cities around where I live though have seen their warmahorde communities disappear. Either people just quit, went back to playing 40k, or have started playing Guild Ball. Guild Ball really took off apparently after mk3 dropped. I don't play the game but I can see the appeal for warmahordes players.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 16:02:27


 
   
Made in ca
Dipping With Wood Stain






It's obvious that PP took some misteps, and kind of bungled the release of MK3, the worst of which was neutering almost all online sales and introducing their MAP.
Looking back now, all the steps make sense really.

I think their biggest problem is competition. There are just tons of options now to eat away at my gaming dollars, and a lot more options with better models.
The model quality of PP is worse than CMON's board game miniature quality and I think this, along with killing the Press Gang and introducing the Free Rider policy is what might be putting the nails in the coffin.

PP is unable to compete with other miniatures manufacturers, and is now competing against board games. Except I can get a board game for less than a single Hooch Hauler. In fact, I can almost get two massive board games for that price.

Another problem is the model and rules bloat.
That's why games like Guild Ball and the new hotness is doing better - less to deal with and remember.

Like others have said, it's a perfect storm of bad decisions, and extremely good competition. It's no longer a game of just competing with GW. PP has a lot more competition from a lot more companies and directions. And unless they can diversify, and start expanding their catalogue (which they seem to have tried and failed at) , there isn't much at all to entice new players - it's a steep learning curve, the models are mediocre, and the rules are I a constant state of flux. None of that is attractive to new players.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I was reading about the "Rolling Thunder" releases that WotC did for Legend of the Five Rings (and a couple other CCGs they did at the time), where they changed how they released their expansions. Going for more of a comic book vibe, the idea was to replace rarity with scarcity, such that there were no rare cards and it would be easy to collect a complete set, but not if you waited too long and the next set was released.

What they ultimately found is that, despite rarity being the biggest complaint that players had against their games, when they actually removed rarity completely, the sales basically dropped to zero. An actual quote from Ryan Dancy:
Rarity is essential to the CCG biz. Without it, sales slow and interest wanes. CCGs therefore are a hobby for people who can afford to chase rares. If you don't like chasing rares, find another hobby.


Now, obviously, the CCG market eventually crashed, taking with it just about every CCG under the sun save Pokemon and Magic. When other companies, like FFG, tried to make card games, they tried to distance themselves from the collectible aspect as much as possible, and even now, I think the term has a particularly poisonous connotation outside of Pokemon/Magic. So the players didn't like chasing rares, but when they couldn't chase rares, they didn't really know what else to do. Eventually, they got tired of chasing rares and not knowing what else to do, they left.

And it just reminded me of Warmachine, for some reason. Warmachine is a hobby for people who can afford to be competitive. If you don't like being competitive, find a different game. But when given exactly what they are asking for (constant balance updates through the CID program, theme lists designed to increase the number of viable army builds), it turns out that it isn't what most players wanted after all. More than that, Warmachine - the premier competitive wargame - is crashing pretty hard right now and there's a bunch of scandals threatening numerous tournaments and high profile tournament players, to the point that maybe we are approaching the point where "chasing rares" is no longer enough to support a game by itself and foil cards are no longer fooling anybody.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sqorgar wrote:

And this happens all the time. Seriously, 40k is on the 8th edition. There isn't a single model more than a year old that hasn't been changed significantly. Things need to change over time in response to new releases, balance imperfections, and direction changes. It happens in every game to every model. If you are buying a model for a very narrowly defined, specific purpose that you know will one day be nerfed, removed, enhanced, modified, or otherwise changed, isn't it your fault for having absolutely unrealistic expectations of an ongoing game system?



And the fact that this happens all the time in all games makes it OK? People walked away from those other games when it happened there. Same thing is happening here.

And no - I don’t see it as my ‘fault’ for expecting my product to stay relevant/functional. I don't expect the ink in a book to evaporate, I don't expect a DVD disc to shatter after x amount of time.

I don’t mind broken things being toned down, I don’t mind underpowered things being beefed (actually, I encourage these), I do mind change for the sake of change, especially when it is not an overall improvement. I also mind things being nerfed, not because they were causing issues, but solely in order to push the ‘new stuff’. You don’t need to nerf the older stuff to keep folks interested in the new stuff.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Cynical? If anything, game designers are optimists. They think all the changes they make are for the greater good of the game and that whatever sacrifice is being asked of the players is ultimately worth it. It's the players who are cynical.


It’s got a lot less to do with the ‘greater good’ than dictats from management about pushing the new shiny at the expense of the old.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Probably the same way I'd feel when the new iPhone doesn't have a headphone jack, my computer no longer runs DOS games, or when the guy I didn't vote for gets elected into office. Sometimes, things change, and not always for the better, and being able to adapt to change is the mark of maturity.


I genuinely doubt you prefer to sit back and let yourself get screwed over
.
As you say. Adapt to change. Or suffer.

So when, for example Apple do dodgy, cynical things with the new iPhone, while I could accept it, and shrug my shoulders and say 'ah well, change happens', I don’t actually have to just sit there and take it on the chin. In this specific example, There is a reason both me and my walk walked from Apple.

In this topic, We are talking about why people are ‘adapting’ and turning their backs on Privateer Press, rather than ‘suffering’.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Competitive is not a spectrum. There's a wide variety of different personality types that enjoy competition, but they do not enjoy it for the same reason. I don't call all of them competitive players. I define "competitive player" as someone for whom the game ceases to be worthwhile without the promise (threat?) of competition. Like, for example, a WMH player who won't play Battle Box games with new players. Those aren't WAAC players, but their behavior may have just as high a cost.

WAAC is someone who will literally "win at all cost". They'll cheat, whine, exploit, manipulate, throw fits, and generally use any action available to them in order to chase victory. Competitive players are a different breed. They aren't trying to win at all cost, they are trying to compete at all cost. They may desire fair competition, and generally be decent opponents to play against, but the only thing they care about is their selfish desire to make all games into a competition of skill, willpower, and intelligence. The Necromunda player mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example. They aren't a WAAC player, but they are trying to make a game competitive that really isn't designed for it.


‘Competitive’ is very much a spectrum. If you have a wide variety of different personality types enjoying competition for different reasons, that very much points to a spectrum of what 'competitive' represents. ‘Competitive’ means different things to different people, regardless of what you yourself (or I) call it. It’s a gradient, not a ‘line in the sand’. And you can’t take an extreme fringe element of this spectrum, especially one you don’t like, and slap a label most people would call ‘generic catch-all term’ on it, you are opening yourself to claims that you are deliberately misrepresenting and skewing the picture to push your own narrative. The necromunda player mentioned earlier was a tool – I agree, but is certainly not a good example of a lot of competitive players. He is a good example of an donkey-cave gamer. And as someone who has played competitively, I find the comparison that both he and I see the same to be both inaccurate, condescending and extremely damned rude.

You need to be very careful about your definitions, especially the ones that you define on your own terms that are at odds with what others define it. The kind of gaming you call ‘competitive’ is what I refer to as ‘competitive at all costs’ for example. Now, I will agree with you here – this type of gaming certainly can be destructive to a community when it's not held in check or kept to the right place. But 'competitive' as a whole? In my experience, competitive can be both extremely positive and empowering for a lot of people.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Yes. I don't think you need an official program for players to act as ambassadors for it, and if you need some sort of badge or reward or else you won't do it, then the problem isn't the with the program stopping. And WMH's bloat is most felt when played in a very specific way. There's plenty of opportunities to play the game in a less bloated manner (playing journeyman leagues, battle box games, company of iron, heavy metal games, narrative games) which are much more welcoming to new players. But if you only play 75 pt Steamroller games with the intent of winning against every single overpowered combo in every single faction across Warmachine and Hordes, then yeah, it's a bit bloated.


I think if you put the effort into building a community, organising events and acting as an ambassador for a game, especially in a volunteer capacity, you should get something out of it. To me, that goes for anything people put their time and effort into. I have Marshalld for several marathons (as well as run them). I stood there I never godawful weather, cheering and directing people on the course. At the end of the day, I got a free t-shirt. Totally fair, considering the time I'd put in.

Losing the pressganger programme took the incentive away from a lot of people to be community builders. Also, PP gave a lot of support and tools to pressgangers that helped organised things that is extremely difficult to replicate.

That said, I agree with the second part of what you say. There are plenty other ways of playing the game. Id actually also argue there are plenty other ways of playing effective 75pt tournaments than what the internet says, but there can be a certain stagnancy of thought about these things on line.


 Sqorgar wrote:

Someone more up to date on WMH that I should intentionally create a newbie-friendly subset of models - maybe one or two casters, a couple jacks, and a couple units per faction (equivalent to the initial release of mk1) - which doesn't include any curbstomp combos or the trickiest caster spells or any of the bloat. Something where a new player can pick any combination of any faction's models and just play it against any combination of another faction's models and have a game that will last at least 3 turns.


I am a big fan of the idea of more restrictive formats. For me, a start is ‘current versions’ of casters only. I like the idea of something like a ‘legends’ format which is a format where what is ‘game-legal’ is what was around at the time of the ‘legends’ expansion of Mk1. As you say, limit the casters, jacks and units but still leave enough there that you can sink your teeth into.


 Sqorgar wrote:

I think people who would drop a game and sell all their models after investing hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the better part of a decade over temporary balance issues are mentally ill.


And you didn’t answer my question. Are you saying PPs shift to ‘theme’ based list building (effectively akin to a GW ‘codex’ style release schedule) and CID as opposed to ‘open’ lists didn’t sour some people on how the game was presented and built?

PEople left 40k, for example, when GW brought in 'allies' as it brought in a huge range of problems. People can leave WMH because go with the company is building/supporting its game no longer matches what they want to play.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 18:05:13


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Professional




Nottingham, England

What killed it for me was destroying theme forces in MKIII. I had a 150 pnt Ashlynn force I could no longer field , it was not overpowered or broken. Sure, other companies do it but combined with mark iii with its extensive play testing by rabid fan boys who wouldn't criticise anything it was enough to destroy my interest and that of 9 other friends.

GW gets our money and our support now and that's very very unlikely to change. MKiii is so bad now that most of the UK sellers who buy secondhand models in bulk will no longer buy the stuff at all.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
What killed it for me was destroying theme forces in MKIII. I had a 150 pnt Ashlynn force I could no longer field , it was not overpowered or broken. Sure, other companies do it but combined with mark iii with its extensive play testing by rabid fan boys who wouldn't criticise anything it was enough to destroy my interest and that of 9 other friends.

GW gets our money and our support now and that's very very unlikely to change. MKiii is so bad now that most of the UK sellers who buy secondhand models in bulk will no longer buy the stuff at all.

Honestly, this is much more accurate to what happened to Warmahordes than the long debate above, imo. Lots of people have posted along these lines, but it's getting a little drowned out in this thread just due to a few posters arguing.

Basically, PP dropped the ball really, really bad with MK3's rollout and the events that happened around the same time. Anecdotally, it effectively ended play in our group and the local stores in the same way it did for Twilight's above (with the exception of Wehrkind and I continuing to play for a bit in his basement ).

Whether or not someone likes / doesn't like "competitive" games is kind of irrelevant to all this, and of course GW is genius in that they make both (cadual-style AoS and a tight ruleset like Shadespire). It's all about the implementation, and unfortunately PP handled their new edition about as badly as it was possible to do!

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 20:47:09


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I will say I'm not seeing a lot of great deals on E-bay, though I do see a lot of "or best offer". Demand hasn't completely collapsed. (edit, oops had that reversed before).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 20:50:01


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Grimtuff wrote:
Forgeworld now being the pinnacle of quality?

I lolled.

I'm pretty firmly in the "warmachine models are crap" camp and I still have to back this up a bit.

Forgeworld has some technically beautiful models, but their casting is abysmal sometimes. I've seen recasts that legitimately seem to have higher success rates than the original molds, which is ridiculous for the price you pay on forgeworld models.

This isn't really an argument for or against either company, just that I'd have a hard time holding up either as the pinnacle of casting and model design.

If you're going to go with the pinnacle of model design, it's either going to be GW plastics on a purely technical level (skulls and goofy designs aside, they have some of the most technically impressive wargaming models and jam packed sprues in the business) or aesthetically speaking there are dozens of boutique companies out there that have just gorgeous quality and yet somehow still understand quality control to boot while being in the same price range or cheaper than PP and FW.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Tamwulf wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Forgeworld now being the pinnacle of quality?

I lolled.


Out of curiosity, what other company (companies?) that work in resin at the volumes Forge World does are better? Resin is a difficult medium to use. It has to be at the right temperature, has to be mixed correctly, has to be allowed to cure, and even with the most careful of pours, can induce air bubbles into the material.

Kromlech comes to mind for great resin models, but they do nothing close to the scale Forge World produces. Is there a company out there that does and for what game?


The resin Dropzone and Dropfleet Commander uses is better in every way. Same thing with Prodos'/Archon's resin and their new one piece gimmic resin. Those are two companies who surely put out quantities of resin miniatures comparable to Forgeworld, but whose quality blows Forgeworld out of the water. I don't have a good feel for Mierce, but from what I hear they als compare well with FW.

   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







The problem is that what Force World is doing is kind of insane. Resin casting is a small run process and they've turned it into an assembly line, at the cost that most of their castings are flawed.

It's like they're whittling wooden spoons on a conveyor belt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 21:16:02


The supply does not get to make the demands. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RiTides wrote:
Sqorgar, your points here come across just as someone who is against competitive play, but GW obviously feels differently as they've released games on the whole spectrum from casual (AoS in certain modes) to very competitive focused with tight rules (Shadespire). Basically, your points are completely off regarding why Warmahordes suddenly failed, as they're the kind of thing someone who just Really doesn't like the game would say, rather than a loyal customer who decided (for reasons like Twilight posted here, which closely mirror my own) to suddenly stop playing.

1. I like Warmachine. I think the game is pretty good and occasionally brilliant, and I've been with it since literally before it was released (I played a demo at a con before the boxes were available and preordered it). I have several armies (Cryx, Khador, Menoth, Convergence, and Retribution - and I bought a mk3 battle box for Cygnar with the intention of starting them in mk3). Theme lists almost brought me back (and I thought Mk3 address many of my gameplay complaints from mk2) and I was THIS close to getting the Armored Corp box (I might still get Sorscha3 to paint) - There's a thread here somewhere in which you can see me wavering. Ultimately, I decided not to come back. What I don't like is the Warmachine community, how they play the game, how they talk about the game, and how they demand the game be tailored to them.

I don't know what your definition of a loyal player is, but I've been playing and following the game since the beginning. I lapsed the first time after my first child was born. I lapsed the second time because I got tired of getting curb stomped on the second turn by frustrating combos performed largely by unpainted proxies on a flat field. I only briefly flirted with going back a third time recently, but I still bought two battle boxes, the hardback rulebook, and a plastic Stormclad (just to see if the plastic model quality was any good) - but I had intended to buy about $200 more of Man-o-War models. I was a Warmachine customer for a decade, and I'm still a potential customer, honestly. WMH could EASILY get me back if it wanted me.

2. WMH is failing because too few new players are coming in and a large portion of the old players are leaving - the net change in players over time is negative. We can debate why these two facts are what they are, but that's the short of it. Warmachine was unsustainable and operating on borrowed time. It would've crashed sooner or later regardless of theme lists or CID or press gangers. That net negative change in players goes back to the latter days of Mk2, and while Mk3 may have expedited the game's illness, it was inevitable without a trajectory change.

3. Games Workshop doesn't put all their eggs in one basket with competitive gaming. Even their competitive products have non-competitive uses. Shadespire figures can be played in Age of Sigmar, and the General's Handbook has as much open play and narrative content as it does matched play. GW has competitive games, but it doesn't rely on competitive gaming.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





The problem with Forge World is price, when combined with quality. The "they do so much" isn't an excuse for quality. It never is. If you can't produce a quality product (regardless of the number of units, or the scale of the actual model) then don't do it.

If Forgeworld was about 30-50% cheaper, it'd be worth it, given the casting issues I've seen. They're charging a premium price for what is absolutely NOT a premium product.

I've received bad resin from two companies in the UK who were not Forgeworld. The best ones I've received were from Russia and Poland, and wherever TT Combat is located at the moment.

Some of these companies even charge close to Forgeworld prices for a similar item, but the quality has (thus far) been far superior than the resin I've received from Forgeworld - and that I've witnessed from friends. I do think some of the Forgeworld stuff looks better now than it did back in the early 2000's, but that's not saying a whole lot.

Forgeworld also often commits the sin of "forgetting what medium we work in" with some shockingly stupid model decisions when you know you're making it in resin - looking at you Heirophant or whatever the huge spindly legged Tyranid mega-creature was. Same with generally spindly, thin models covered in thin details which are extremely prone to mis-casting or breaking.

I generally have a negative opinion of any gaming miniature which becomes "model first, gaming second" with regard to design. I think a key component to a miniatures company's designs should be remembering who is going to buy the model and use it - to remember someone needs to stash this in a foam/cardboard box and might fly across the world with it to play in a game. GW is making some silly models with regards to this issue lately and Forgeworld has long had some questionably designed minis.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 wuestenfux wrote:
Not sure you understand how statistics work.

I gave a class about algebraic statistics several times.
My feeling is that with my beloved casters the percentage is about 20% or so.


87% of the statistics found from the Internet are wrong.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

 Sqorgar wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
This. Cryx relied on that 5%, they lived and died on it.
Not sure you understand how statistics work. A 5% difference wouldn't change a single game. It means that if you were to take hundreds, or even thousands of dice rolls, the difference in rolls would approach an average of a 5% increase (law of really big numbers). So each roll would have a 1 in 20 chance of rolling slightly better - remember, this isn't a 5% increase in successes, but in the increase of roll value - which may be meaningless if you already have a very high or very low chance already. A 5% is better than a 0%, and a 95% is better that a 90%, but they are, for all intents and purposes, identical tactically (you aren't going to decide to hit on a 5% or not hit on a 90%). So, it is only in the less common circumstances where a 5% increase is functionally important - a success where one was not before. Getting a 6 when a 5 would do doesn't change the outcome. This will happen far less than 1 in 20 rolls. Similarly, randomness only averages out over a large number of rolls. You might, for example, only get that boost from 1 in 40 rolls or get it 1 in 5 rolls. This means that Cryx will, on average over a great number of games, be slightly better, but means absolutely nothing for predicting the outcome of a single match. So that 5% difference probably won't affect the overall win rate of Cryx in any appreciable way. It would probably be something like 0.02%, but no doubt the mental effect on wargaming nerds is much more profound.


Cryx lost 5 - 10% of their defensive stat and other factions gained 5 - 10% on offensive stats. As another poster said it made a massive difference. Cryx just die now, there is no real purpose to run them. If you try to run you have to either aim for the caster and get an assassination run asap, or die.
That 5% is massive when it is the only thing keeping you alive.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

The percentage discussion is misleading, imo. A stat swing of 2 in MAT or RAT often distinguishes auto-include models from those that aren't usually worth their points.

The fact that the Skorne faction didn't work at all on release kind of points to how little testing they did ahead of time
   
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Infiltrating Prowler






 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


The resin Dropzone and Dropfleet Commander uses is better in every way. Same thing with Prodos'/Archon's resin and their new one piece gimmic resin. Those are two companies who surely put out quantities of resin miniatures comparable to Forgeworld, but whose quality blows Forgeworld out of the water. I don't have a good feel for Mierce, but from what I hear they als compare well with FW.


The couple pieces I have gotten from Mierce are perfect. A bit of gap fill with joining limbs, but nothing on the scale of what friends have had to go through with their WMH figs. Mold slip a mm thick.

PP got leapfrogged by the smaller competition on miniatures. Their rules were the only thing people could hold up as being the draw for the game. With that being gone, they are now just another small miniature game company competing among the crowd.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not a WMH player, but back in the day I often liked their character and Warjack sculpts. Character miniatures were (and are) also usually cheaper than GW ones (particularly plastic GW characters are crazy expensive).
Later on, I thought PP sculpts became increasingly cartoonish compared to earlier, more gritty and serious tone and in general they seemed to run out of ideas what kind of models to design anymore. GW suffers from similar issues, but IMO less so. PP infantry models do not compare well, with lack of poses, use of PVC and so on.
Side note, a weird thing is how tiny pictures PP uses of its models on the website. Hello, 1999 called and wants its 800x600 resolution back.
And Colossals/Gargantuans...mostly meh looking models, and I predicted they would cause similar issues than GW Apocalypse scale units when they were added to regular 40k.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

The Characters are still worth the buy if you like them, as are some of the Jacks.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

I'm pretty happy with PP's restic when it costs me $2.50 per mini. I might go as high as 5 for Menoth or Convergence. Love their over the top style.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm pretty happy with PP's restic when it costs me $2.50 per mini. I might go as high as 5 for Menoth or Convergence. Love their over the top style.


maybe i am a weirdo, but other than GW's LOTR (especially the finecast, which I love) I think PP's minis are much much better than GW's...for full disclosure, I may also be one of the 4 or 5 people on earth who liked the PPP for Confrontation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/31 01:35:03


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 thekingofkings wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm pretty happy with PP's restic when it costs me $2.50 per mini. I might go as high as 5 for Menoth or Convergence. Love their over the top style.


maybe i am a weirdo, but other than GW's LOTR (especially the finecast, which I love) I think PP's minis are much much better than GW's...for full disclosure, I may also be one of the 4 or 5 people on earth who liked the PPP for Confrontation.


I wouldn't say better than GW's, but I like how stylish and different many of PP's designs are (were?). I liked the Confrontation Ragnarok plastics, too, although I haven't taken them out of their tub in the closet in half a decade. And I also like Reaper Bones, and also Nolzur's Pre Primed minis, and also Mantic's plastics, and Star Trek Attack Wing, and also Defiance UAMC, and also old Warzone plastics...


Maybe I have no taste.

   
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
What killed it for me was destroying theme forces in MKIII. I had a 150 pnt Ashlynn force I could no longer field , it was not overpowered or broken. Sure, other companies do it but combined with mark iii with its extensive play testing by rabid fan boys who wouldn't criticise anything it was enough to destroy my interest and that of 9 other friends.

GW gets our money and our support now and that's very very unlikely to change. MKiii is so bad now that most of the UK sellers who buy secondhand models in bulk will no longer buy the stuff at all.

Its strange but true, one misleading edition could kill a gaming company and PP is in this position.
The general rule set of MK3 is generally solid but theme lists are annoying if you ask me.

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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

I don’t really have a horse in this race (never liked WMH models so never got any) but have seen WMH die on its arse at our club too where it was once very popular.

I get the impression from there and this thread that notwithstanding the MK3 abortion, WMH just never had the fluff to hook people like say 40k does. So that even through bad editions people had less incentive to stick with the game.

WMH competitive focus was good while the game was good but a massive weakness when it was not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/31 08:02:09


How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

I don’t really have a horse in this race (never liked WMH models so never got any) but have seen WMH die on its arse at our club too where it was once very popular.

Then you are on the better side.
Selling PP stuff seems to be impossible these days.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







There are definitely some models from their line that I want, though I loathe oversized shoulders, which cuts out about half their stuff. I recall that at one point I was starting to go bigger into it, but got turned off by the modeling, especially after the tourney rules where you couldn't use 3rd party bits on your models came out (or that was how it was interpreted here). I'd been kind of doing Egyptian theme Cryx, and that pretty much killed it. In 40K you can build your own stuff, in warmachine/hordes you're really limited as to what you can do creatively with your models. Much less scope for converting and scratch building.
   
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 kestral wrote:
There are definitely some models from their line that I want, though I loathe oversized shoulders, which cuts out about half their stuff. I recall that at one point I was starting to go bigger into it, but got turned off by the modeling, especially after the tourney rules where you couldn't use 3rd party bits on your models came out (or that was how it was interpreted here). I'd been kind of doing Egyptian theme Cryx, and that pretty much killed it. In 40K you can build your own stuff, in warmachine/hordes you're really limited as to what you can do creatively with your models. Much less scope for converting and scratch building.


The 3rd party rule was only for PP sponsored events such as Lock and Load. It has no effect on any other SR tourney being ran anywhere else, just like GW's identical ruling affects zero tourneys outside Warhammer World.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

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Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Unfortunately Grimtuff, if the company puts something like that out, many TOs and players will take it as gospel for their own games so it does have an effect.

Weirdly I have been doing a lot of painting and modeling for Hordes recently. I would argue that there are actually some lovely models in the range. I am doing Gatormen after they have been sat in my cupboard for six years and the original metals are mostly very nice. Snapjaw is gorgeous.

I don't imagine I will actually play the game, likely I will use the minis for Dungeons and Dragons now. I dislike the idea of themes, though I would probably play without them and still enjoy myself, but the local scene has completely imploded and I am not motivated to try and start it up again.

   
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Fixture of Dakka





The MK3 thing saddens me, because even when it first launched, I liked it a whole lot better than MK2. There seemed to be an absolute desire from the community to crucify PP on it though and honestly I don't know why. The one glaring, obvious gap in it was that it was pretty clearly playtested with a rule that you couldn't attack your own models, and every major failing was a result of that being dialed back to being unable to charge them.

The other early gaffes were RAW loopholes that happen in every game (including MK2) that get resolved as they come to life. No, it was never intended that you couldn't technically charge KD'd models. That was pretty obvious, but the players decided that was somehow an apocalyptic sign of a broken game, when pretty much every other system suffers a similar goof and players are happy with the devs saying "no, don't play it that way, a fix is coming".

It felt to me that there was a lynch mob out there before MK3 launched that was hunting for rope to hang them with. I guess they succeeded? Either way, its disappointing, as on the whole, I like the actual game more than I ever have; I'm just tired of working with a community that feels increasingly self destructive.
   
 
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