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 beir wrote:
Has anyone tried an imperial bastion with their Long Fangs? Now that they are a centerpiece unit, paying a couple hundred points for 20 more T9 wounds doesn't sound too bad...

Might even make a good place to hide a Rune Priest if your opponent has a Dominus Knight.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 beir wrote:
Has anyone tried an imperial bastion with their Long Fangs? Now that they are a centerpiece unit, paying a couple hundred points for 20 more T9 wounds doesn't sound too bad...

Might even make a good place to hide a Rune Priest if your opponent has a Dominus Knight.

Would the Rune Priest be able to give it that tasty -1 to hit?

I don't own the second imperial index though so I don't know how Fortifications work. It seems like an expensive way to try and protect your Long Fangs...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 beir wrote:
Has anyone tried an imperial bastion with their Long Fangs? Now that they are a centerpiece unit, paying a couple hundred points for 20 more T9 wounds doesn't sound too bad...

Might even make a good place to hide a Rune Priest if your opponent has a Dominus Knight.

Would the Rune Priest be able to give it that tasty -1 to hit?

I don't own the second imperial index though so I don't know how Fortifications work. It seems like an expensive way to try and protect your Long Fangs...

Aura effects don't work when you're inside a building or a transport and the bastion isn't a <Space Wolves> unit, so no.

It's cheaper than a second set of Long Fangs and has a lot more survivability. I think I might try it out. I've been wanting to paint one up for my army for a long time anyway.

HOWEVER I must point out out chooser of the slain stratagem works for any friendly unit next to the rune priest.

"Thats a really nice unit you just dropped in.... hey isnt that a nice unit Tank Commander Pask? Would be a shame if Pask shot the crap out of it RIGHT NOW!"

Just saying, if we have to go soup to be honestly competitive we should look at how things can work together.

Azuza001 wrote:
HOWEVER I must point out out chooser of the slain stratagem works for any friendly unit next to the rune priest.

"Thats a really nice unit you just dropped in.... hey isnt that a nice unit Tank Commander Pask? Would be a shame if Pask shot the crap out of it RIGHT NOW!"

Just saying, if we have to go soup to be honestly competitive we should look at how things can work together.

agreed, unless/until that gets FAQed, A rune Preist will be a good go to for space wolves compeitiveness.

Northern85Star wrote:
You know, if there is one thing we all agree on is working very good for us, it is outflanking wulfen. But the majority stick to one unit. Why not go three units, outflank them all, and see what happens?

I thought we did outflanking primaris well? Just walk on and shoot. Also dropping jumping wolf guards with storm boltersbor combi plasma.

Long fang heavy bolters seem cool.

Do we also do dreadnoughts well?

 Niiai wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
You know, if there is one thing we all agree on is working very good for us, it is outflanking wulfen. But the majority stick to one unit. Why not go three units, outflank them all, and see what happens?

I thought we did outflanking primaris well? Just walk on and shoot. Also dropping jumping wolf guards with storm boltersbor combi plasma.

Long fang heavy bolters seem cool.

Do we also do dreadnoughts well?

Bjorn do very well. He got a points drop now, so he could be even better than before. Wuflen Dread are bad.

I think the only Primaris that looks good for Space Wolf would be the Reviers. Their shock grenades can neutralize enemy overwatch, esoecially the painful Heavy Flamer, Tzeentch Flamer, IK super flamer and Tau FW Riptide Plasma flamer things. They also drop enemy Ld by 1 for being close iirc, so it synergize well with the wolf lord "owwooo" stratagem making the morale phase more painful for the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For outflanking shooty units, I think the Longfang with Multimelta could be the best. making anywhere within 18" of the board edge not safe for enemy "big bads". Making them to deploy in the centre, and the Wuflen / TWC to move up to crush them.

Multi-Melta is still garbage. Avoid those.

jcd386 wrote:
Rhinos or razorbacks can also work for this to some extent, but only one unit can avoid the penalties.

For this reason it really seems like the value of long fang squads starts going down significantly the more of them you take.

That's fairly common pattern with 8th ed due to unscalability of psychic powers/strategems which also means game doesn't work that well in bigger/smaller games. 1 knight errant can be good. 2 is less hot. 3 and you are basically having mediocre knight or two in the field.

Funnily enough GW wanted to move away deathstar type of units and then introduced strategems that encourage death star style builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Are not the rhinoes taller then long fangs? Just park them in front and move them begore you shoot.

Remember to park it sideways least enemy draw LOS to the long fangs UNDER the rhino though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
HOWEVER I must point out out chooser of the slain stratagem works for any friendly unit next to the rune priest.

"Thats a really nice unit you just dropped in.... hey isnt that a nice unit Tank Commander Pask? Would be a shame if Pask shot the crap out of it RIGHT NOW!"

Just saying, if we have to go soup to be honestly competitive we should look at how things can work together.

agreed, unless/until that gets FAQed, A rune Preist will be a good go to for space wolves compeitiveness.

Yeah. If you have models already feel free to use it but I would be wary of buying anything expensive with that in mind...Wonder how many chaos players bought Mortarion/Magnus for deep striking only to be denied that

Interestingly, wolf guard on bikes costs 36 pts in the index, while he costs 32 pts as part of a swiftclaw unit in the codex. A shame the unit wasnt included in the codex with the pts drop.

And for some reason wolf scout bikers are 31 points. I guess they are really paying for that outflank ability.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I really like the idea of the chaplain dreadnought kitted out for murder. Make it your warlord with saga of the beastslayer, give it a twin lascannon and the relic storm bolter and watch this boy WORK. 1CP he gets the wolf lord aura and 1 CP he can ignore all negatives to hit to really give someone a bad day with his 2+ to hit re-rolling. He's also heroically intervening six big boy inches to punch someone with a super angry fist. Shooting wise he would do well against monsters and vehicles due to his warlord trait giving him +1 to wound monsters and vehicles so nearly anything is getting wounded on a 2+ by the lascannon and 4+ by the bolter. For 212 points he is a pretty solid pick for a tanky and reliable warlord who can really dish out damage at range and melee.

Character protection, 9 wounds with a 6+++, 4 attacks s14 ap-3 3 damage at WS 2+ (or 1+ to avoid - to hit modifiers) on top of the relic bolter and two lascannon shots and a plethora of good stratagems makes this an awesome sounding choice. The only thing that makes me sad about it is that I primarily play Primaris and Deathwatch are better at that than space wolves so I'll get very limited use out of this guy.

Yes, this may be one of the few places where the relic stormbolter has some use. Another one would be to give him the armor of russ, for improving the invulnerable save as well as shutting down units. I'd like to see him tag-team with Bjorn, feeding off each other's auras. Giving Bjorn twin las means that if you get the deed of legend on the chaplain you now have even more reliable punch out of him. One problem with this combo, however, is that you spend alot of points on lascannons on two units that want to get stuck in.

tneva82 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Rhinos or razorbacks can also work for this to some extent, but only one unit can avoid the penalties.

For this reason it really seems like the value of long fang squads starts going down significantly the more of them you take.

That's fairly common pattern with 8th ed due to unscalability of psychic powers/strategems which also means game doesn't work that well in bigger/smaller games. 1 knight errant can be good. 2 is less hot. 3 and you are basically having mediocre knight or two in the field.

Funnily enough GW wanted to move away deathstar type of units and then introduced strategems that encourage death star style builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Are not the rhinoes taller then long fangs? Just park them in front and move them begore you shoot.

Remember to park it sideways least enemy draw LOS to the long fangs UNDER the rhino though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
HOWEVER I must point out out chooser of the slain stratagem works for any friendly unit next to the rune priest.

"Thats a really nice unit you just dropped in.... hey isnt that a nice unit Tank Commander Pask? Would be a shame if Pask shot the crap out of it RIGHT NOW!"

Just saying, if we have to go soup to be honestly competitive we should look at how things can work together.

agreed, unless/until that gets FAQed, A rune Preist will be a good go to for space wolves compeitiveness.

Yeah. If you have models already feel free to use it but I would be wary of buying anything expensive with that in mind...Wonder how many chaos players bought Mortarion/Magnus for deep striking only to be denied that

Your definition of a death star might be different than mine lol. I actually like how most of the good strategems promote you to take certain units, but don't reward you for spamming that unit. There are still issues, like just doing the best strategem combos in one book and allying in the best combos from another book, or when the units being buffed by strategems are already undercosted, but overall I like it.

Spamming 1 unit is pretty much not deathstar...Deathstar is one expensive unit with all the bells&whistles. Funny that strategems that work on 1 unit is just designed for death stars...

Spamming 1 unit ad infinum creates multiple units which is pretty much opposite of death star. Multiple weaker units vs one big one.

So why is the Wulfen Dread considered terribad? Talking about the Axe&Shield version here.

VenDread
+Smoke launchers
+6+++
+WS2+
-6" move
-No reroll for charges
-No ranged weapon

WulfDread
+8" move
+Rerollable charge
+ 18 pts cheaper (with a SB)
-No smoke
-No FNP
-WS3+

Lack of smoke launchers hurts, but 6+++ is often not very consequential. More speed and a rerollable charge for fewer points doesn't really sound like a terrible deal to me. Sure the nerf to 3++ hurts but am I missing something that makes Wulfen Dread significantly worse than a VenDread or are they just both considered bad now?

Jcd, you can not trace line of sight under the rhino if it stands sideways. And that does not come into the debate if you can trace los to and from bases.

Azuza001 wrote:
HOWEVER I must point out out chooser of the slain stratagem works for any friendly unit next to the rune priest.

"Thats a really nice unit you just dropped in.... hey isnt that a nice unit Tank Commander Pask? Would be a shame if Pask shot the crap out of it RIGHT NOW!"

Just saying, if we have to go soup to be honestly competitive we should look at how things can work together.

In 2 weeks I'll be deciding whether or not to buy a big scary superheavy. Until then, the FW tanks will do pretty nicely, even if the FAQ says they must be SW. The Sicaran's are dope, Leviathans are nasty, and the Scorpius is pretty sweet at infantry killing.

Lol i didnt even think about superheavys. I may have to get a knight now....... nah, gw will definitely faq that loophole out right? I mean, cant have space marines kicking ass.....

So this is what i am thinking about now for a 1500 pt list. I always start there and then fill out the other 250/500 pts based on feedback/looking at the main forces weaknesses.




Plan is to have the ig infantry cover the backfield / back objectives. Have the whirlwinds and basilisk hide with the wolf guard battle leader and rain down a landing zone for my outflankers, and outflank all the grey hunters and deep stike the rune priest.

I am thinking of putting heavy weapons into the guard infantry for additonal fire support. I think i am missing out on real anti tank, but the plasma could tip the balance if that becomes an issue. Thoughts welcomed.

I would say there is absolutely nothing scary in your list. Knights will just stomp over it. Hiding 4 tanks out of LOS is probably impossible (especialy when they want to use the BLs aura) and finding good spots to outflank 31 models to ain't easy either. Clearing an area completely is difficult, even with 4 artilleries. Just 1 survivor will spoil your plan.

So what would you suggest gets replaced/ done? Like i said i have another 550ish points to spend here.

I don't think you want to outflank 25% or more of your army. It's basically a much weaker form of deepstrike, and it is very easy for the other player to block out their back board edge and force you to hit useless units on their sides.

I think the most powerful use for outflank is hiding long fangs from alpha strike or moving onto objectives out table quarters late game with GH/BC squads. So I think you want to keep the outflanking GH/BC squads pretty minimal so you can afford to wait unit the right time. Plus, if the other player does leave their back field open, most of the time a small unit will be effective enough at locking things up and causing trouble without hampering the rest of your army.

For grey hunters, I think you pretty much have to take transports to help get the plasma where it needs to be. Otherwise it costs too much.

Battlecribe has ben updated, Relics are still missing though.

I think our strenghts lie in the combination of a solid shooty base combined with melee supported by characters.

I would take at least 2 melee characters, 1 unit of wulfen and 1 maxed LF unit as a must have core.

Single cybers (or even pairs now they have LD6) are always great. They can be used to deny the board for DS, grab objectives or be placed at the front to absorb smites or something angry trying to charge you.

Im not sure how to use GHs yet. Maybe I can squeeze in 6 min squads with a plasma each to get 2 battaillions.

If you want to take guard, think about taking a tank commander. And I would rather take more basiliks than whirlwinds. Make them Catachen to get more shots and add Harker for his aura.

 Weazel wrote:
So why is the Wulfen Dread considered terribad? Talking about the Axe&Shield version here.

VenDread
+Smoke launchers
+6+++
+WS2+
-6" move
-No reroll for charges
-No ranged weapon

WulfDread
+8" move
+Rerollable charge
+ 18 pts cheaper (with a SB)
-No smoke
-No FNP
-WS3+

Lack of smoke launchers hurts, but 6+++ is often not very consequential. More speed and a rerollable charge for fewer points doesn't really sound like a terrible deal to me. Sure the nerf to 3++ hurts but am I missing something that makes Wulfen Dread significantly worse than a VenDread or are they just both considered bad now?

Main thing is, if you want a melee dread that badly, you NEED the extra move and rerolling charges. Plus a 4++ is much better than a 6+++.

Brickolage wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I really like the idea of the chaplain dreadnought kitted out for murder. Make it your warlord with saga of the beastslayer, give it a twin lascannon and the relic storm bolter and watch this boy WORK. 1CP he gets the wolf lord aura and 1 CP he can ignore all negatives to hit to really give someone a bad day with his 2+ to hit re-rolling. He's also heroically intervening six big boy inches to punch someone with a super angry fist. Shooting wise he would do well against monsters and vehicles due to his warlord trait giving him +1 to wound monsters and vehicles so nearly anything is getting wounded on a 2+ by the lascannon and 4+ by the bolter. For 212 points he is a pretty solid pick for a tanky and reliable warlord who can really dish out damage at range and melee.

Character protection, 9 wounds with a 6+++, 4 attacks s14 ap-3 3 damage at WS 2+ (or 1+ to avoid - to hit modifiers) on top of the relic bolter and two lascannon shots and a plethora of good stratagems makes this an awesome sounding choice. The only thing that makes me sad about it is that I primarily play Primaris and Deathwatch are better at that than space wolves so I'll get very limited use out of this guy.

Yes, this may be one of the few places where the relic stormbolter has some use. Another one would be to give him the armor of russ, for improving the invulnerable save as well as shutting down units. I'd like to see him tag-team with Bjorn, feeding off each other's auras. Giving Bjorn twin las means that if you get the deed of legend on the chaplain you now have even more reliable punch out of him. One problem with this combo, however, is that you spend alot of points on lascannons on two units that want to get stuck in.

I just imagine two totally Chad dreadnoughts just high fiving every time they kill something. "For the Wolf Time brooo. Chaa man." Queue a rhino driving by "Surfs up dude!" Bjorn jumps on the back and rides it into battle. Chaplain dread sits back "Gnarly!" and aggressively waddles after him.

One thing that irritates me about pruning the options "not in a kit". There does not exist a kit for Skyclaws or Swiftclaws. Technically you can build Skyclaws from Assault Marines (yet the picture of them are kitbashed from SW kit with a jump pack) or by buying the jump packs separately, so I guess that's not a problem.

Where it gets more dubious is when you start looking at the options of Swiftclaws and check the appalling amount of options in the Biker kit, you'll soon realize the only way to build Swiftclaws is by kitbashing. OMG. So intimidating for a beginner hobbyist!

Well the point is if there's a unit that has to be kitbashed (which kinda defeats the purpose or reasoning of their option pruning), why did Wolf Guard and characters lose the option to take a bike?

I'm calling shenanigans.

My problem with taking the transports is the cost, your looking at almost 275 pts a squad at that point for 7 plasma shots. If i was going to do that why not take terminators with combi plasma and deep strike? The idea was to find a use for gh and a way to get them into a useful position.

I understand what your saying about the enemy covering the backfield with stuff to stop them all from coming in, but thats why i brought the artillery. Clear out a spot t1 so t2 there is a place to move in also i can always come in on a side that is between our deplpyment zones, it doesnt have to be in theres.

With 550 pts left to spend i was thinking a stormwolf or longfangs and thunderwolves.

I know basilisks are stronger, but i was trying to keep the list space wolves predominantly. However i could put a 2nd one in as well with the extra 500 pts.

What does everyone think of say.. a squad of Landspeeders with multimeltas?

Speed them forward, 3 multimeltas (maybe something else too) and use keen senses to take away the -1 to hit when moving.

I feel like they're small enough to hide on a flank and keeping them in a unit of 3 gives them all the ability to remove the -1 to hit from keen senses.

I always use my land speeder with twin heavy flamer, it used to be good but at this point its just a bit too expensive.

Look at it like this. If you do what your thinking your talking about 3 multimelta shots for 300ish points. Why not do the long fangs with multimeltas outflanking at that cost? You can use the same strat to ignore the -1 to hit.

Honestly i was thinking about this and the hemlock flyers eldar use. My oppent always flys them at -2 to hit forward t1 and ends up blowing valuable stuff away. But he also tends to end up with one of them near a table edge. 4 multimeltas should be able to make a hemlock pay, wouldnt you think?

Azuza001 wrote:
My problem with taking the transports is the cost, your looking at almost 275 pts a squad at that point for 7 plasma shots. If i was going to do that why not take terminators with combi plasma and deep strike? The idea was to find a use for gh and a way to get them into a useful position.

I understand what your saying about the enemy covering the backfield with stuff to stop them all from coming in, but thats why i brought the artillery. Clear out a spot t1 so t2 there is a place to move in also i can always come in on a side that is between our deplpyment zones, it doesnt have to be in theres.

With 550 pts left to spend i was thinking a stormwolf or longfangs and thunderwolves.

I know basilisks are stronger, but i was trying to keep the list space wolves predominantly. However i could put a 2nd one in as well with the extra 500 pts.

The issue with the "clear the chaff" idea is that your opponent always gets a turn of movement between you killing stuff and your guys dropping in. This means they will almost always be able to shift things around to mitigate your damage. This is also true for deepstrike, but harder to do because deepstrikers can drop anywhere. For outflank, two cheap units capping a line of vehicles is all that you need.

Additionally, unless you outflank Ragnar or Wulfen with GH/BC, they are going to fail their charges more often than not, and you can only reroll one of those with the strategem. So you risk having an expensive squad show up and do very little.

I think if you want to outflank things, you either need to go all in and bring a way to reroll those charges for big units of GH or BC, or only take a very small squad to show up and be annoying. A naked squad of 5 blood claws with an axe or first locks up vehicles about as well as anything else, for a lot less. They also beat up basic troop units well enough to require some attention. And if they do fail their charge it won't ruin you.

Rhinos are expensive but I think having 1-2 is okay. You also probably want other threats that compete for your opponents good guns like TWC, fliers, Wulfen, or dreads.

That bring said I also don't think SW can afford to spend too many points on their troops. They do decent damage in CC which is refreshing for a marine player, but they still have all the durability issues of Marines, and get expensive fast. After a lot of mucking around with lists, I am beginning to think the best SW troop unit might be 5 blood claws with a power fist or 5 grey hunters with a plasma gun and pistol. Outflank them and/or throw two of them into a rhino, fill the battillion and call it a day. Then spend the rest of your points on stuff that's actually good. Pack leaders are nice, especially the blood claw ones with three hammer attacks, so I think you can take them if you want to, but it's annoying fitting squads of 6 into rhinos, and they get pricey quickly.

Landspeeders got 10 pts cheaper. Still very expensive, but i plan on making three just because turn one 6xheavy flamer sounds fun.. and it’s a unit that has to be dealt with quickly.