Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Easy E wrote:I am saying Fascism leads to wasteful tactics, and the Empire is fascist. Such wasteful tactics are defined by Operation: Cinder.

Ok, I see where you're coming from now, but I still wouldn't characterize it as incompetence. The Imperials who carry out Operation: Cinder (except the boots on the grounds and wings in the air... sometimes) understand that the math doesn't add up - those who carry on regardless out of fanatical devotion to the Emperor go on to form the ideological foundation of the First Order, those who fall short of that ideal by degrees are ultimately betrayed when the messenger droids stop giving them instructions, and are left to die at the hands of a vengeful galaxy. While we do see examples of truly incompetent Imperial Remnant forces in the canon material, so far, to my knowledge, they're officers and units who were not selected to participate in Operation: Cinder at all.

Alphabet Squadron does a good job characterizing the sort of people you'd see defecting from the Empire before Alderaan blew up, and the sorts of people who'd justify staying after, and the sorts who would justify fighting for the Empire after Operation: Cinder began, with little windows into how the process makes them more and more extreme over time. (There's a brief mention of a Star Destroyer that approaches republic forces, alone and outgunned. The captain hails them, surrenders his vessel and crew to the lawful galactic government, and is immediately shot by one of the junior officers on the bridge, starting a firefight throughout the ship.)

I also think you might like Lindsay Ellis' video essay on the Ideology of the First Order (and Disney's desire to tiptoe around it so they can print storm trooper t-shirts), though I suspect you may have seen it.

insaniak wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
[... it doesn't provide protection,...

I feel like this is one place where perceptions are skewed by the fact that most of the time when we see people shooting at stormtroopers, it's the heroes, who are better shots than the average goon. According to the background material, stormtrooper armour is supposed to provide protection from glancing blaster shots by dispersing the impact and the energy from the shot, but won't hold up to a direct hit. But the only time we really see this in action is when they storm the Tantive at the start of Episode IV against the hail of fire from the rebel troopers. From then on, we just see a constant succession of troopers being consistently felled by single shots, which gives the impression that ze armour, it does nussing.

It would be nice to see more scenes thrown in where stormtroopers are a bit more durable... but really, the idea that they're wearing mass produced armour designed to intimidate while not actually delivering the protection promised by the manufacturer isn't too out there, either.

You're not wrong, I've heard (and rather like) the argument that Stormtrooper armour keeps the wearer alive when they'd otherwise be super dead.

It's just that the Empire has this long, long laundry list of pointless flaws that only really existed in the EU as subsequent authors felt the need to come up with new reasons that 'explain' how the Rebels even have a chance against them (because the idea that a decentralized non-government organization from the middle of nowhere reaching out and attacking a superpower seemed impossible to authors in the 90s I guess?), but predictably enough making the Empire progressively less competent made the plucky rebels progressively less plucky. The reason I was optimistic about the Legends split was that it presented them with an opportunity to discard some of the sillier aspects of the EU and hopefully make the Empire more threatening.

Which, for the record, they did do for a lot of stuff: Ackbar didn't design the A and B wings himself on the back of a dinner napkin (the A-Wing is now an older design that lost out to the tie fighter for mass Imperial production that the Rebels fielded before acquiring X-Wings and turned in to hotrods after), and Darth Vader no longer has to worry about falling to his death every time he lumbers into a staircase. I just wish the stormtroopers were allowed to be the scary faceless mooks they were in the OT, unironically.

The example I'm specifically thinking of is from Rebels (so, post Disney acquisition) where Wrex readily and frequently talks the armour's quality down, culminating in a shootout where he can't hit anything until he takes the helmet off, declares he can't see with it on, and throws it at a stormtrooper (no doubt, killing him).

It's probably the seeing stuff part that annoys me the most - I once read an explanation for it saying each stormtrooper's helmets and boots were specifically fitted for the individual trooper and that's the reason they give people trouble when they commandeer them - but I doubt that's the official stance anymore, if it ever was.

Also, we're looking from a very modern perspective in this - experienced militia vs. modern military should, and will, result in a total stomping for the militia.

Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?

 Graphite wrote:
Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?

In terms of individual fighting skills, the militia men described in your example would probably be slightly superior, but war is a team effort and the organisation and command structure of an army will make it crush the militia easily in a conventional warfare..

 Graphite wrote:
Also, we're looking from a very modern perspective in this - experienced militia vs. modern military should, and will, result in a total stomping for the militia.

Wind back to The Old West (or at least that time period) - how big was the gap between an above average civilian, possibly an American Civil War veteran and soldiers of the US army of the time?

Might depend on the equipment.

If your Olde Timey GI had a Rifle, and the Miilitia a Musket, distinct advantage to the GI.

If both had Muskets, probably advantage to the Veteran (especially in reloading times, as they’re more likely to know Sharpe’s reloading technique).

Right. So in most of the actions we see in Star Wars, we're following a small group of relativity experienced fighters (the heroes / militia) against a relatively small number of regular soldiers, who have equivalent equipment and possibly less training. This may give the militia an advantage.

On the occasions The Empire gets to fight as a proper army, e.g. Hoth, the equivalent Rebel army loses, badly.

And Endor becomes the US army trying to "pacify" the west, which wasn't as straight forward as technology differences would indicate.

 Grimskul wrote:
Also, as far as I know in Solo, the soldiers they display there which Han is part of aren't stormtroopers. They're known as swamp troopers and are explicitly outside of the Stormtrooper Corps as part of the regular Imperial infantry. So that's not a good example of the Empire being super idiotic with their use of stormtroopers.

Migs Mayfeld also made it clear that although he was Imperial Military, he wasn't a Stormtrooper.

Ok, I finally watched the Mandalorian and I have probably a likely unpopular hot take...




I have spoken.

Watching Rebels might clear that up, as Ahsoka has a mission unsuited to having a Youngling/Padawan in tow.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Watching Rebels might clear that up, as Ahsoka has a mission unsuited to having a Youngling/Padawan in tow.

Looking for whales is unsuitable for kids? Especially when its a self-appointed whim?

So I followup up my Mandalorian two season watch (not sure if it's considered a proper "binge" if you do it over a week and a half) with finally seeing ROS... wow was that a big dumb two plots worth of action crammed into one to make up for the previous entry movie. Yesterday, I rewatched my first ever Disney era Star Wars anything in Rogue One and it was better than I remembered. I thought it was good (not perfect or great but simply good) and it's even better a few years later with a rewatch. I'll admit that my standards may have been reset by the intervening trio of gak films (Solo, TLJ, ROS) but I've also watched the Mandalorian seasons in short order which were markedly better. I'd put Rogue One at slightly better overall than the Mandalorian seasons combined (though I'd individually rate some episodes individually as better than the film). What obviously I didn't catch the first time around since Mando didn't yet exist is how similar in tone and pacing the two feel compared with the other films. If anyone hasn't rewatched it since Mando, I'd invite you to and would be curious if you agree or disagree. Regardless, the U-wing is and always will be awesome!

Well. That's that I suppose.

The Mandalorian Actress Gina Carano Fired by Lucasfilm
The actress' recent comments sparked backlash on social media.

Actress Gina Carano, known for playing former Rebel Alliance soldier Cara Dune on Disney's the Mandalorian, has been fired from the show, according to io9.

In a statement sent to io9, a Lucasfilm representative spoke on the matter:
“Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”

Carano was the subject of much criticism recently when, in a now-deleted Instagram post, she compared being a modern-day Republican to being Jewish during the Holocaust. The hashtag #FireGinaCarano has trended on social media in recent months after other incendiary comments by the television and film star.

Sources tell the Hollywood Reporter that Lucasfilm planned on announcing in December that Carano would star in her own Star Wars series. Those plans were scrapped after Carano's November tweets.

Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well. That's that I suppose.

The Mandalorian Actress Gina Carano Fired by Lucasfilm
The actress' recent comments sparked backlash on social media.

Actress Gina Carano, known for playing former Rebel Alliance soldier Cara Dune on Disney's the Mandalorian, has been fired from the show, according to io9.

In a statement sent to io9, a Lucasfilm representative spoke on the matter:
“Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.”

Carano was the subject of much criticism recently when, in a now-deleted Instagram post, she compared being a modern-day Republican to being Jewish during the Holocaust. The hashtag #FireGinaCarano has trended on social media in recent months after other incendiary comments by the television and film star.

Sources tell the Hollywood Reporter that Lucasfilm planned on announcing in December that Carano would star in her own Star Wars series. Those plans were scrapped after Carano's November tweets.

Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.

Snowflakes gonna snowflake, I guess. People are literally looking for an excuse to be offended these days. And Disney wants to pander to those people. SMDH

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Meanwhile, Lucasfilm employees/writers attack SW fans directly on social media and are A-OK.

Yup. I have yet to see any proof of her denigrating anyone based on identity and only her standing up for herself against hateful public tweets towards her. Unlike other Lucasfilm employees who do actually denigrate others based on race and sex as long as the targets are deemed acceptable based on those characteristics.

I liked Carino. I’ve supported her in other threads. But seeing the nature of her support and supporters, I’m glad she’s gone.

"She compared being a Republican to being a Jew in Nazi Germany!"

As Jimmy Woo on the recent episode of Wandavision said, that's an oversimplification.

I don't agree with the comparison. It's much more like 1950's McCarthyism. Which is ironic (or more accurately hypocritical) that the same Hollywood/media industry that nominated Trumbo for dozens for awards in 2015 are now doing the exact same thing as the "baddies" in that film.

Her Godwin-ing her point right at the start was a bad move.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"She compared being a Republican to being a Jew in Nazi Germany!"

As Jimmy Woo on the recent episode of Wandavision said, that's an oversimplification.

could you clarify this? I'm not a real big sw fan and have never watched the babyoda show so never followed this. I'd have to say if there's any validity to it then it's certainly an outrageous claim.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Her Godwin-ing her point right at the start was a bad move.

There's a damn prequel meme here somewhere. Something like (Palpatine Voice) "It's ironic."

 Matt Swain wrote:
could you clarify this? I'm not a real big sw fan and have never watched the babyoda show so never followed this. I'd have to say if there's any validity to it then it's certainly an outrageous claim.

I'm not sure it can be clarified without deep diving hard into current American politics. The TLDR version; an actress posted some memes and made some comments that some people saw as suggesting certain things, so they got a hashtag going to get her fired, and she kind of dug herself in rather than extricate herself from the situation. Disney has blinked for the moment (assuming she doesn't get a James Gunn sort of deal, but I think her situation is different from Gunn's).

Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.

Let's avoid some of the politics and keep it to just the show please to avoid the thread going downhill, thanks!

 LordofHats wrote:
There's a damn prequel meme here somewhere. Something like (Palpatine Voice) "It's ironic."

Genuinely unsure if that comment is directed at me, or just the topic at hand.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
There's a damn prequel meme here somewhere. Something like (Palpatine Voice) "It's ironic."

Genuinely unsure if that comment is directed at me, or just the topic at hand.

Topic at hand, I assure. Mostly, I think it's just amusing to make a Palpatine reference in regard to someone making a Godwin XD Godwins are almost always some kind of ironic, since you can invoke the Nazis for almost anything.

Ok, cool. Fair enough.

I'll take "Things that happen when you give a platform to people who get hit in the head for a living" for 100 please Alex.

 LordofHats wrote:

Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.

I would expect that she just won't appear any more. She's not a central enough character (none of the supporting cast are, really) that the story can't continue without her. If she does come up in a story, it will just be to mention that she's busy 'elsewhere'.

Or they'll recast her, but I hope not. I'd rather they introduce a new character than recast.

 insaniak wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Wonder what they're gonna do with the character. Seemed like she was expected to be a recurring element of SW tv shows.

I would expect that she just won't appear any more. She's not a central enough character (none of the supporting cast are, really) that the story can't continue without her. If she does come up in a story, it will just be to mention that she's busy 'elsewhere'.

Or they'll recast her, but I hope not. I'd rather they introduce a new character than recast.

I suppose. The second season could probably just be here last appearance and it's no bigs narrative wise. I kind of got the feeling there was gonna be more for her though, like how whats his face came back in season 2 for a rather fun and interesting performance. The ex-Storm Trooper. An episode of him and Dune working together because circumstances demand it could have been entertaining.

I must agree with the recasting bit. I don't like recasting actors, even voice actors. You can tell something's different and it distracts. Everytime I watch Spartacus: Blood and Sand, I just stop because I know the second and third seasons just aren't the same without Andy Whitfield.

Star Trek Picard illustrated the lowest possible road they could take: recast the actor long enough to kill the character in as demeaning a way as they can think of in a fit of pique. Here's hoping they don't sink so low, Gina's behavior through all of this has been enough of an embarrassment already.

As far as the Mandalorian is concerned, she could be gone by season 3 with or without a character explaining her absence, never to be seen again. Or else brought back in novels, animation, or whatever, it's Lucasfilm's character. If they intended to use her for that New Republic series that's a minor rework and short delay, at most.

Edit: Rumor (and so far, only rumor) has it they were, in fact, going to announce a spinoff starring her during the December investor show, but scrapped that plan after her erratic tweets in November.

Who was recast and killed in Picard?

Icheb, the former Borg boy.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Icheb, the former Borg boy.

Oh ugh.

I remember the actor trying and failing so hard to continue the character in the Renegades fan film. It was cringy, Really cringy.

This actually sounds worse XD