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I think if you've seen Filoni's animated shows it's not really possible to say how well it stands on its own, you already possess the knowledge of events that lead us to where the show starts, and you'd need to watch it very carefully to sift out one from the other.
It is, with all the good and bad it brings, essentially season 5 of Rebels transitioned to live action. As a fan who's watched all of the previous material on the characters I'm thoroughly enjoying the show, but I can see how it could feel a little like starting the OT by watching Return Of The Jedi if you came to it cold.
Equally, given how widely available all that previous material is, and for how long, my sympathy for 'fans" (as opposed to casual observers) bitching about stuff which can be readily explained with a little broader knowledge would be limited.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
BobtheInquisitor wrote: We just watched the first episode, and….Sabine is *supposed* to be unlikeable, right?
She lost Ezra at the moment of what should have been her greatest triumph, and then her home planet was genocided in retaliation for a rebellion that SHE basicly started.
so she's got a fair bit of emotional baggage
None of that comes across in the show.
Have you watched the first four seasons, or just leapt straight into season 5?
Ahsoka is still in its first season, no? Have I watched animated Star Wars? No. We started Clone Wars and lost interest. We have no plans to watch Rebels or Bad Batch or anything else animated Star Wars. If that is considered required viewing for this live action Star Wars, the mouse has miscalculated.
There’s no basis to claim a character doesn’t make sense when their backstory very much exists, is freely accessible, it’s just your choice not to see it.
This is like picking up a late entry book in a long running series, and complaining you’re not following the character motivations, therefore the writing is bad.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: We just watched the first episode, and….Sabine is *supposed* to be unlikeable, right?
She lost Ezra at the moment of what should have been her greatest triumph, and then her home planet was genocided in retaliation for a rebellion that SHE basicly started.
so she's got a fair bit of emotional baggage
None of that comes across in the show.
Have you watched the first four seasons, or just leapt straight into season 5?
Ahsoka is still in its first season, no? Have I watched animated Star Wars? No. We started Clone Wars and lost interest. We have no plans to watch Rebels or Bad Batch or anything else animated Star Wars. If that is considered required viewing for this live action Star Wars, the mouse has miscalculated.
So you didn't enjoy/ don't intend to watch what is, by and large, considered to be some of the best Star Wars content outside of the OT? What made you think that you'd enjoy something based on the same characters by the same writer?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
There’s no basis to claim a character doesn’t make sense when their backstory very much exists, is freely accessible, it’s just your choice not to see it.
This is like picking up a late entry book in a long running series, and complaining you’re not following the character motivations, therefore the writing is bad.
m
But this is the first episode of the Ahsoka series…
Should every show and movie require homework now?
I don’t want to watch a cartoon as homework any more than I want to read a graphic novel as homework. It also sounds like the character in question doesn’t make sense even with the backstory. It’s possible, just possible, that Disney Star Wars whiffed on the execution.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: We just watched the first episode, and….Sabine is *supposed* to be unlikeable, right?
She lost Ezra at the moment of what should have been her greatest triumph, and then her home planet was genocided in retaliation for a rebellion that SHE basicly started.
so she's got a fair bit of emotional baggage
None of that comes across in the show.
Have you watched the first four seasons, or just leapt straight into season 5?
Ahsoka is still in its first season, no? Have I watched animated Star Wars? No. We started Clone Wars and lost interest. We have no plans to watch Rebels or Bad Batch or anything else animated Star Wars. If that is considered required viewing for this live action Star Wars, the mouse has miscalculated.
So you didn't enjoy/ don't intend to watch what is, by and large, considered to be some of the best Star Wars content outside of the OT? What made you think that you'd enjoy something based on the same characters by the same writer?
I’m going to watch more episodes and give it more of a chance. I didn’t even say I hated it or disliked it. I just asked if the unlikeable character was supposed to be unlikeable. Lots of shows have unlikeable characters on purpose, so it’s nice to know if I should be giving the character more leeway or lean into the dislike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/09 02:00:41
You're only really viewing Sabine as unlikeable because you're viewing her actions out of context, I'd say most people who are across her history are seeing, and understanding, where she's coming from.
You're going to have to be prepared to miss a lot of nuance by effectively starting in season 5, which was my original point.
Just because the medium and title have changed, this is just a straight continuation of the Rebels storyline, to the point where the scene where Sabine places her hand on the mural, before walking along the walkway and departing with Ahsoka in her ship is a literal shot-for-shot remake of one of the final scenes in Rebels (and also shows the more informed viewer where the two shows line up with each other chronologically.)
Watch what you want, ignore what you want, but understand that nobody likes the guy who sits down half way through the movie then starts asking questions about everything. Which isn't a perfect analogy, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I’m not asking for plot details or summaries. I can go to wookieepedia for that. Just confirming or not a character impression.
Anyway, we made it to episode 4. Sabine gets better written after that, barring plot necessity. But the two characters I find most compelling are villains.
Do you like Star Wars? Do you live in or reasonably close to London? Fancy paying £20 for a self guided tour of an exhibition of Star Wars related stuff, called “The Fans Strike Back”?
Well don’t. Save your money. A friend and I went round it this morning, and it’s cack.
It’s billed as fan made prop replicas. But that’s a big old naughty fib. The majority are (crappy, poorly made) dioramas using off-the-peg toys.
There’s no insight into making replica props whatsoever. We basically paid £20 each to see someone else’s toy collection. I could’ve stayed at home and looked at my own, for free.
Utter utter tripe. Avoid it like Anakin would avoid sand.
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Azreal13 wrote: You're only really viewing Sabine as unlikeable because you're viewing her actions out of context, I'd say most people who are across her history are seeing, and understanding, where she's coming from.
You're going to have to be prepared to miss a lot of nuance by effectively starting in season 5, which was my original point.
Just because the medium and title have changed, this is just a straight continuation of the Rebels storyline, to the point where the scene where Sabine places her hand on the mural, before walking along the walkway and departing with Ahsoka in her ship is a literal shot-for-shot remake of one of the final scenes in Rebels (and also shows the more informed viewer where the two shows line up with each other chronologically.)
Watch what you want, ignore what you want, but understand that nobody likes the guy who sits down half way through the movie then starts asking questions about everything. Which isn't a perfect analogy, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
So: if you're unfamiliar with the animated Clone Wars & Rebels, don't know this Filononi (sp?) Guy wrote both & is just continuing his previous work, and find you've got questions..... You're not allowed to ask them because fans like you look down your nose at the uninformed.
Congratulations Azreal, YOU are part of what's wrong with the SW fan base here in 2023.
No, what I'm saying is, if you're struggling to understand what's happening on screen when jumping into the middle of the story, then that's not the fault of the storyteller.
Don't be the guy who sits down half way through, says "what's her problem?" and then when it's explained to you that the reason she's acting that way is down to a series of events that happened earlier in that characters narrative, and to understand that you would need to see the part of the story that's already been told, declare "well that's not obvious from this bit I'm watching now."
It's not a Star Wars problem, it's a "started the story (more than) half way through" problem. It's a starting with Prisoner of Azkhaban and asking what's the big deal about the kid with glasses problem.
I'm not saying people can't ask questions, I'm saying that criticising a show that's part of an ongoing story for not spoonfeeding new viewers who may not have seen previous installments all the information they've missed, when it's all there and readily available in the shows where it happened, isn't valid.
I think in Ahsoka's case specifically there's an argument for criticising the PR around the show for not making it more obvious that it wasn't just picking up threads from Rebels but basically using them as the whole narrative structure, but that's different from essentially calling out Season 5 for continuing the storylines from Season 4 as a flaw because it doesn't retread the old ground it's already covered.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Alright, so I gave Ahsoka a shot despite never having watched Clone Wars or Rebels and I actually really dug it. I read the Heir to the Empire trilogy years ago so I have a pretty good idea of who Thrawn is, even though his story is now clearly different from Zhan's books. Little odds and ends I've picked up reading this thread have also given me some context so I don't feel all that lost.
That being said, I do have some questions you guys can hopefully answer for me without spoiling too much.
1. How did Thrawn get to this other galaxy if they're only now building the ship capable of making the jump? Was this covered in one of the earlier shows? How did he get there?
2. Who is Ezra to Ahsoka and Sabine? Friend? Family? A fellow Jedi? Why do they think he's still alive if they haven't seen him in so long?
3. What exactly happened between Ahsoka and Sabine that split them up?
4. Where is Ahsoka right now? I got some very 'Thanos after he snaps the gauntlet' vibes from whatever alternate reality she's in at the end of that last episode.
1. Purrgil (I had to Google that spelling) are the space whales we've seen in the space fight between Ahsoka and the junior Siths, they migrate through hyperspace and, apparently, intergalactically.
2. The dynamic between Ezra and Sabine specifically seems uncertain. I'd say the most logical take from Rebels was that they were close friends and maybe Ezra had a bit of a crush. What we've seen so far in Ahsoka suggests that maybe it's reciprocated, but it's all a bit open to interpretation.
3. Retrospectively, we now know there was a pretty significant time jump in the final Rebels episode. It appeared that Ahsoka and Sabine went looking for Ezra almost immediately. We now know that whatever went down between them happened in that gap, but, yeah, not what exactly.
4. It's some Filoni-verse specific Force lore, used badly it could be eye rolling, used wisely we could see some awesome stuff.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Also we saw the Purgil in the last season of Mando, in a Hyperspace cameo.
Hey….Grogu noticed them. Maybe that’ll come into it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also worth remembering/learning that it was Sabine who originally gave the Darksaber to Bo Katan, to unite Mandalore.
I don’t think we’ve heard much of Clan Wren since we last saw them in Rebels, but there may be survivors out there.
Certainly if Thrawn is returning, Sabine is a natural “in” with the Mandalorians. If not, Ahsoka and Grogu’s acquaintance may play well in helping find Sabine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also?
Shin. Clearly used to a Lightsaber. And Baylan’s apprentice.
But…..have we seen her actually make use of the Force so far?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/09/09 22:51:11
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Shin. Clearly used to a Lightsaber. And Baylan’s apprentice.
But…..have we seen her actually make use of the Force so far?
yeah, she force choked sabine after the end of the fight, until called off by her master in a "i keep my promises" speech.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
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Ya know, if Thrawn did return, and bring back the Empire and take over the galaxy again, I wonder what that would look like. Palps was all about corruption and terror and pitting his own people against each other and it was never Supposed to be a good system, it was supposed to suck. Thrawn seems a more logical dude, get stuff functioning. Gotta think it wouldn’t be as bad living under that, not that it would be great.
AduroT wrote: Ya know, if Thrawn did return, and bring back the Empire and take over the galaxy again, I wonder what that would look like. Palps was all about corruption and terror and pitting his own people against each other and it was never Supposed to be a good system, it was supposed to suck. Thrawn seems a more logical dude, get stuff functioning. Gotta think it wouldn’t be as bad living under that, not that it would be great.
Without some timey-whimey handwaving, a Thrawn-brings-back-the-Empire seems impossible, does it not? This is year... 9 and the sequel trilogy is year 20-something.
Presumably a rational Thrawn Empire of studying art and instantly defeating foes is foiled by the First Order. Or the heroes, who are also villains and whatever (given sequel-era 'both sides' themes)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/09/11 03:32:12
I mean yeah, it’s not going to happen in the show, I’m just talking a hypothetical what if sort of deal. Would stopping Thrawn even be that good given what we know of the Republic?
Isn't the next movie with Rey about her waking up, going to work and telling her coworker that she had the weirdest dream last night? If not, I don't know, I might have had the weirdest dream last night.
I could see Thrawn striving for an Empire that would be more adequately described as a repressive meritocracy. Still a military dictatorship and a strong focus on order, but with a fairer legal system and protected civil rights. Just going off his character in Rebels. I haven't read the books. That would likely be as good as the Empire can get.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
ok, so Im refining my previous statement about Hera getting fired for disobedience, to her quitting in protest of political meddling getting in the way of her doing The Right Thing, and her becoming a founding member of the Resistance.
maybe not the anti First Order organization we see in the sequels, but something oriented towards helping fight the imperial remnants still causing trouble that the New Republic cant or wont deal with, and at some future point realises the imperial remmants are coalescing under the banner of the First Order. might be a sub plot of this or one of the other shows.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
xerxeskingofking wrote: ok, so Im refining my previous statement about Hera getting fired for disobedience, to her quitting in protest of political meddling getting in the way of her doing The Right Thing, and her becoming a founding member of the Resistance.
maybe not the anti First Order organization we see in the sequels, but something oriented towards helping fight the imperial remnants still causing trouble that the New Republic cant or wont deal with, and at some future point realises the imperial remmants are coalescing under the banner of the First Order. might be a sub plot of this or one of the other shows.
That sounds very plausible. My reaction on first seeing TFA was "why is the Resistance even a thing? Surely that's what the New Republic fleet is for?!", but showing the New Republic having a bit of an appeasement / fingers in ears reaction to the Imperial remenants would make that whole thread in the sequels make more sense.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
xerxeskingofking wrote: ok, so Im refining my previous statement about Hera getting fired for disobedience, to her quitting in protest of political meddling getting in the way of her doing The Right Thing, and her becoming a founding member of the Resistance.
maybe not the anti First Order organization we see in the sequels, but something oriented towards helping fight the imperial remnants still causing trouble that the New Republic cant or wont deal with, and at some future point realises the imperial remmants are coalescing under the banner of the First Order. might be a sub plot of this or one of the other shows.
That sounds very plausible. My reaction on first seeing TFA was "why is the Resistance even a thing? Surely that's what the New Republic fleet is for?!", but showing the New Republic having a bit of an appeasement / fingers in ears reaction to the Imperial remenants would make that whole thread in the sequels make more sense.
Sadly this has always been the explanation. I remember leaving Episode 7 wondering the same things and finding out there was a bunch of background material explaining that the Republic didn't consider the FO a real threat but Leia did so she basically made a PMC to keep them in check. As much as I enjoy Episode 7, this is probably the most significant of Abrams's sins as far as passing the buck when it comes to world building.
I for one prefer to the old EU’s “this time, it’s war. But with a super weapon. But not like a Death Star, this time it’s a super super star destroyer but instead of guns, it’s got four arses”, each time getting dafter and dafter. Like the indestructible dustbin that can blow up stars. Or the really big gun which can blow up stars.
Yes those are kind of an internal trope, and we see two instances, arguably three I suppose, in the sequels.
And at least we didn’t have starships made from coral with a Jedi squished in as a power unit.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I for one prefer to the old EU’s “this time, it’s war. But with a super weapon. But not like a Death Star, this time it’s a super super star destroyer but instead of guns, it’s got four arses”, each time getting dafter and dafter. Like the indestructible dustbin that can blow up stars. Or the really big gun which can blow up stars.
Yes those are kind of an internal trope, and we see two instances, arguably three I suppose, in the sequels.
And at least we didn’t have starships made from coral with a Jedi squished in as a power unit.
Or starfighters made from bugs to which the jedi is permanently psychically and emotionally bonded, but which they'll immediately stop using as soon as the series is over...
But yeah, as much as the planet-sized Death Star was a bit of a lazy do-over, it was certainly in keeping with the EU's 'Villain with a superweapon of the week' approach to expanding the universe.
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