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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gk with actual smite would be legit. Same for rubrics.

I think that would take Rubrics from good to too strong. No one would ever see a squad over 5 ever again.

If only we could take cannons in 5 man squad.
Strikes I believe also go from good to strong in this configuration.

It would be interesting to know what happens to units like purifiers / castellan crowe / ect.

Also - it wouldn't be too much to ask for some changes to GK powers which are just trash tier.

Rubrics need a version of Smite where some aspect of it is based on their squad size. Like Mini smite if 5 or less, regular smite at 6 or more, and casting bonuses above 10 and 15. And 5 man soul reapers back too. I want to bring back my army that is based on a core of 3 10 man rubric squads :( But they are such a huge missed opportunity. There should have been buff powers and strats for them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gk with actual smite would be legit. Same for rubrics.

I think that would take Rubrics from good to too strong. No one would ever see a squad over 5 ever again.

I don't even see squads of 5 at all, so that's better than now at least.

Giving Rubrics full smite would essentially make you decide if you want maximum smite value or if you want the Soulreaper Cannon. I think at current points costs you'd want the smite every time, though.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Giving Rubrics full smite would essentially make you decide if you want maximum smite value or if you want the Soulreaper Cannon. I think at current points costs you'd want the smite every time, though.

Yeah, between a few cannon shots that need to hit, wound and pass save, versus 1D3 of direct wounds the choice is easy. Especially since upgrading the squad to get the cannon is 113pts, more than a minimal 5-man unit

I will still build my 10-man squad for fluffness, but if the Rubrics/Scarabs get full smite I will be more than happy! I'd prefer to see Rubrics spam than Tzaangor spam personally if it came to that

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to cast multiple smites, the roll needed keeps getting higher, right? So, would the winning move be (assuming certain points changes) to have 3-small squads smiting, and a large squad or two with soul reaper cannons to secure objectives in the backfield?

 cuda1179 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to cast multiple smites, the roll needed keeps getting higher, right? So, would the winning move be (assuming certain points changes) to have 3-small squads smiting, and a large squad or two with soul reaper cannons to secure objectives in the backfield?

1000 sons ignore smite penalty.

 clodax66 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to cast multiple smites, the roll needed keeps getting higher, right? So, would the winning move be (assuming certain points changes) to have 3-small squads smiting, and a large squad or two with soul reaper cannons to secure objectives in the backfield?

1000 sons ignore smite penalty.

Currently, but they certainly would get a penalty, because full fat smite with no penalty is way to easy to cheese.

Dunno.

Giving actual Rubric Squads (and Grey Knight infantry squads) the full current TS smite, but taking it away from characters would be a good way to incentivise people to actually field the (non-Tzangoor/Cultist) infantry units and move away from TS being degraded to character-keyword-protected smite batteries souped into other stuff.

Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable, anti-fun mechanic that need to go away, not become more prolific.

If Smite is given a weapon profile rather than Mortal Wounds then we can talk about upping GK/1kSons’ access to it.

kombatwombat wrote:
Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable, anti-fun mechanic that need to go away, not become more prolific.

If Smite is given a weapon profile rather than Mortal Wounds then we can talk about upping GK/1kSons’ access to it.

Agreed. Or, at the very least, be very limited. They should never do more than definitely in any circumstance.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno.

Giving actual Rubric Squads (and Grey Knight infantry squads) the full current TS smite, but taking it away from characters would be a good way to incentivise people to actually field the (non-Tzangoor/Cultist) infantry units and move away from TS being degraded to character-keyword-protected smite batteries souped into other stuff.

I feel like a solution that makes Ahriman worse at magic murder than the psykers of other factions should be dismissed outright.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable, anti-fun mechanic that need to go away, not become more prolific.

If Smite is given a weapon profile rather than Mortal Wounds then we can talk about upping GK/1kSons’ access to it.

Agreed. Or, at the very least, be very limited. They should never do more than definitely in any circumstance.

Also agreed. It seems such a waste that psychic army = smite spam this edition. Especially in the case of rubrics. The sorcerer should be there to enhance the rubrics, not just be another smite. It would have been great if they had powers to buff rubric attacks, shooting, defense, range, etc.

And offensive psychic powers are dull and flavorless in general because they all average the same amount of MW with only slight variation.

Smite is too good for everybody - it pushes out all other powers. AoS had the same issues.

Baby smite everywhere is the solution.

In AoS you can use the "smite" power only once per turn, so it was hardly that the problem. Tzeenthc in AoS murders you with a spam of mortal wounds from spells, but they all come from Tzeentch specific spells.

Agree on this. GKs and Tsons should have powerful magic, and should be better balanced in general - I think everyone agrees on that.

But the way they should be improved is with reasonable points costs and maybe more access to cool abilities - not by just letting them spam smite all day. That would make the army better, but not more fun to play with or against.

They really need to move away from this mortal wound gak. Why do all spells cause mortal wounds? Why can’t they have normal profiles again?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They really need to move away from this mortal wound gak. Why do all spells cause mortal wounds? Why can’t they have normal profiles again?

Apparently it was because of high invul saves.
Which sort of makes sense, but they should really be rarer, or every army should have a way to deny.
You do actually get a save against mortal wounds in the form of FNP, so its not as if there are absolutely no defenses.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They really need to move away from this mortal wound gak. Why do all spells cause mortal wounds? Why can’t they have normal profiles again?

Apparently it was because of high invul saves.
Which sort of makes sense, but they should really be rarer, or every army should have a way to deny.
You do actually get a save against mortal wounds in the form of FNP, so its not as if there are absolutely no defenses.

Yeah, but ONLY mortal wounds makes psychic powers utterly one-note and lame. There should be allowed to be anti-infantry psychic powers AND anti-elite psychic powers and anti tank psychic powers...you know, like we've had in every edition of 40k for all time until this one stupid mechanic was thought up.

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They really need to move away from this mortal wound gak. Why do all spells cause mortal wounds? Why can’t they have normal profiles again?

Apparently it was because of high invul saves.
Which sort of makes sense, but they should really be rarer, or every army should have a way to deny.
You do actually get a save against mortal wounds in the form of FNP, so its not as if there are absolutely no defenses.

Yeah, but ONLY mortal wounds makes psychic powers utterly one-note and lame. There should be allowed to be anti-infantry psychic powers AND anti-elite psychic powers and anti tank psychic powers...you know, like we've had in every edition of 40k for all time until this one stupid mechanic was thought up.

Whilst Mortal Wounds works fine as a mechanic = having varied weapons profiles (and multiple for some) for spells including non MW would be fine by me.

Mortal wounds punish elite armies and means nothing to hordes, which encourages everyone to add some sort of cheap horde/screen to their armies. It's probably the one part that I hate the most about 8th edition, the need to bubble wrap everything. Just not my playstyle.

Well, there are some powers which are scaling with unit size. (Roll a d6 for each model in the unit and MW on 6s) The problem here is that many chaff units come in small sizes. There will be 6×10 guardsmen and not 3×20. I would be in favor of more rules to make MSUs worse. Or make min size of chaff units bigger. Would also make Battalion spaming harder.

I think it would be better if psychic attacks had a strength characteristic, and that inflicts a mortal wound.

Like, instead of smite dealing an automatic D3 MW, it would be it deals D3 S4 hits that deal mortal wounds.
That way it would hurt light infantry more than heavy infantry, giving guns a reason to exist.

Abilities that already have a good chance of failing shouldn't suffer from this - Da Krunch and Seismic Assault, for example, already need a 6 to proc a mortal wound, and as such a strength value would be unnecessary.

Spoletta wrote:
In AoS you can use the "smite" power only once per turn, so it was hardly that the problem. Tzeenthc in AoS murders you with a spam of mortal wounds from spells, but they all come from Tzeentch specific spells.

Didn't stop people from using it above all else when available, at the cost of all other spells.

Smite is selected as a power too often. Nerfing it for everyone would solve that. Buffing everything else would also solve that. Which is easier, do you think?

Lemondish wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
In AoS you can use the "smite" power only once per turn, so it was hardly that the problem. Tzeenthc in AoS murders you with a spam of mortal wounds from spells, but they all come from Tzeentch specific spells.

Didn't stop people from using it above all else when available, at the cost of all other spells.

Smite is selected as a power too often. Nerfing it for everyone would solve that. Buffing everything else would also solve that. Which is easier, do you think?

Yes, exactly. They changed it in AOS 2 and it is for the better. It still has value, but doesn't overwhelm has spells.

Make smite 1 wound but not nearest target - that way it can target specific units with high invulns but won't be overwhelmingly strong.

It's a shame that when we even talk about psychic powers now, people only ever really mention Tsons and GK.

Meanwhile Tzeentch Daemons, the sorcerers of the game, have less spells than Tsons and are worse in most scenarios.

It makes mine sad, and solidifies their shelf life.

Smite that can target characters even at just 1 wound would be way too powerful.

Tsons could kill a character easily.

Personally I think smite should have 2 profiles.

1. WC 5 12 inches causes d3 mortal wounds to nearest unit.

2. WC 7 18 inches 1 mortal wound targetable

Yeah GWs screwed up the Tzeentch daemons psychic powers. I am super mad about that genestealer cult power that is old school Treason of Tzeench and just infinitely better and more usable than the current version.

As far as smite goes it was only broken when a 30pt model could take it and be spammed. Allowing Rubrics access to full smite would not be broken. Hell since 1ksons don't have access to a high amount of heavy weapons I would say it would go along way towards making the codex usable. As of right now it may as well just be called Codex Supreme Command Detachment.

GW just needs to straight move away from almost any mechanic they put into AOS, it’s just a terrible rules system on almost every conceivable level.

Morale phase, psychic/ magic phase, counter-intuitive dice roll modifier mechanics, mortal wounds, removal of USR’s.

All of these things are bringing down the game.

Smite spam would be reined in by bringing back the power dice/dispel dice pool for the psychic phase. Not the 7th Ed. Mechanics though, that was worse than what we have now.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
GW just needs to straight move away from almost any mechanic they put into AOS, it’s just a terrible rules system on almost every conceivable level.

Morale phase, psychic/ magic phase, counter-intuitive dice roll modifier mechanics, mortal wounds, removal of USR’s.

All of these things are bringing down the game.

Smite spam would be reined in by bringing back the power dice/dispel dice pool for the psychic phase. Not the 7th Ed. Mechanics though, that was worse than what we have now.

They should really take the magic system from WHFB. That was a solid mechanic. The problem with magic in 8th ed were the spells, not the core mechanic.