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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't get what people dislike about the psychic phase in 8th. It's very straightforward and I've yet to see a game that was actually decided in the psychic phase. (Yeah, I don't know people with Tzeentch armies...) You throw out some buffs here and there but there's nothing overpowered in it and your opponent can react if he/she has a psyker - or not.
I saw batreps about WHFB 8th. edition and got to say the psychic phase there was the most boring and fiddly thing I've ever seen, but still deciding games and making blocks of armies disappear without doing anything. I don't want that in 40K.

Let's just put it this way:

My army is made of magical Daemons. Literally Daemons made of magic, serving the god of magic. In previous editions, I would syphon that magical power and turn it into scaling powers, summon allies, or utilize cantrip powers in varying degrees.

In 8th, however, you cannot use a power more than once. This isn't like anything else in any other phase, imagine for example if you paid points for wargear (You do pay a psyker tax) and then the item said you could have many of those guns in your army, but you can only fire one per turn.

Because that's all psychic powers are in 8th. They're just guns in a different phase, and that feels bad for the theme of the army.

You don't fall in love with the lore of an army and paint them, only to put them on the table and go "Hehe, I shoot my BRAIN GUN! I need to roll an 8 to cast it, oops, used a reroll, Hurray! It deals... wait, let's roll a d3 here... Oh, it deals 2 Wounds. Well, at leats I can smite! Oh, you had a screening unit. Well, two of them die, as well! I sure am glad I paid 335 points for this Lord of Change, master of Magic."


Edit: I'll also add, why would it be so wrong for an army or two, or three or four, to be able to "Decide" a game in the psychic phase. We have armies that decide them in the shooting phase, in the combat phase, and often times many armies have little defense against those, either. People love to complain about Knights, Custodes, etc, but I can tell you right now if people could use Smites relatively freely, those things wouldn't be an issue.

Let's be honest, Tzeentch powers were traditionally the worst in all editions.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Let's be honest, Tzeentch powers were traditionally the worst in all editions.

Certainly not intending to imply otherwise, just setting the stage for the explanation of why one might not like the current one/phase.

I would argue that popularity is never a good indicator of whether or not something is good.

I’m certainly not arguing that 8th has been a success. It absolutely has. And that’s good for everyone in the long run.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss issues within the edition.

The simplicity I get, but you can only simplify to a point. I’m arguing that the game has been oversimplified to the point where it starts breaking down. Sometimes things need to be more complex to keep the game in check.

And I would argue that 8th ed WHFB had the best mechanics for magic/psychic phase that GW has ever produced. The issues with it were that the top level spells were too powerful and it didn’t scale. But generally the mechanics were sound.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

To be fair, its probably more to do with the psychic phase. Too many armies lack adequate protection, and smite is too easy to cast. Even with the cumulative modifiers you are probably going to get at least 3 off.

Okay so lets say that's 3 TS exaulteds - that's 360 points.

Would you rather be stomped on by a gallant for 15 ws2 str 8 ap-2 d3 damage attacks? The perception of mortal wounds is vastly overblown by the fact it just seems like you are picking up models and are helpless (which in the case of a TS cultist horde you really are because you can't get to what is hurting you) I think it's really about character targeting. That is the source of the hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

Tractors are OP - smite is just good.

So because Knights are wonky, we leave the mechanic as is?

You're not making any sense.

it was just an example of power. That could be a levi dread firing 20 auto cannons shots hitting on 2's. It could be 60 khabs firing 120 poison shots. It is quite clear - smite does not have the damage potential of other units weapons. So complaining about it is really confusing to me.

Eh... Smite is fine, but it really should be included under the Psychic Focus rule.

Battalion detachment needs to go back to 3 CP's. Brigade detachment needs to go back to 9 CP's. It was an incredibly stupid move to change these. CP refunding wasn't an issue until this change occurred.

I just had a thought, I think its new, but I'm not sure... What if there were no limitations on gained / refunded CP's, but rather any gained / refunded CP's need to be used before the end of the turn or they're lost forever and you cannot gain / refund additional CP's off of these.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It's very straightforward and I've yet to see a game that was actually decided in the psychic phase. (Yeah, I don't know people with Tzeentch armies...)

Well, my first game ended when my Herald of Slaanesh took the last wounds from a knight a la Smite. So....yeah....

Everytimes you shoot a dissie - the next time you shoot a dessie it should be -1 to hit and -1 in addition for each consecutive shot.

Here you go - beta smite applied to the shooting phase^

Doesn't that just sound dumb? By applying this beta smite to the game they are basically saying that smite spam is stronger than shooting spam. Which I can prove to you with math - is not even close to being true. Shooting is way more powerful than smite.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

I agree. Mortal wounds were one of the necessary additions to the game for anyone thats played competitively in the last 10 years. Do you folks realize how utterly impossible to beat armies like custodes or talos spam become when you remove that mechanic? Unkillable units suck the life out of the game faster then mortal wounds. People are conflating two issues here. Horde coupled with smite is too strong and invalidates elite units. It's a one two combo. They need to make chaf suffer immense damage to moral again so it isn't the only way to build out your army. They were stupid and designed reserves and tanks so you require screening. Allow tank shock and shooting when falling back for tanks and suddenly chaf isn't nearly as necessary, especially if they crack down on all the stupid fearless mechanics.

People wouldn't take as many Imperial Knights if they were getting chunked for 9+ Mortal Wounds a turn (low end) from armies, that's for sure.

 oni wrote:
Eh... Smite is fine, but it really should be included under the Psychic Focus rule.

Battalion detachment needs to go back to 3 CP's. Brigade detachment needs to go back to 9 CP's. It was an incredibly stupid move to change these. CP refunding wasn't an issue until this change occurred.

I just had a thought, I think its new, but I'm not sure... What if there were no limitations on gained / refunded CP's, but rather any gained / refunded CP's need to be used before the end of the turn or they're lost forever and you cannot gain / refund additional CP's off of these.

The entire method of generating CP is flawed. It should scale based on investment in a detachment. So for example, you need to spend a minimum of say 300pts on a battalion to gain the 3 CP, if you spend 450 you get the 5 CP. It would make it so everyone is on level ground and can get to the same total rather then 184pts loyal 32nd IG being pimped out left and right. It would also mean armies that have expensive troops can compete, and armies with cheap troops just get more points to spend on elites, FA, flyers and heavy support from that same battalion before they get that CP.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Actually, I think it was more GW’s openness with the community and the destruction of the 7th edition that got people’s interest piqued. AOS was still in its first edition when 8th came out and people still thought it was utter gak. 2nd ed. Hasn’t changed my mind either.

People want to see GW do well, myself included. I didn’t like 7th ed. Any more than anyone else here, but truthfully 40k has always been a bad game, and 8th hasn’t changed that. They’ve just doubled down on the ridiculously stupid and immersion breaking rules of AOS rather than the mind-numbingly convoluted rules of 7th.

All I’m doing is calling it what it is. Bad. I’ve said that they made some good changes with 8, but for every positive change, they made a negative one.

The stuff I listed above is bad, and I don’t know how anyone can look at those rules with a straight face and call them good.

AOS is a brilliant game, best I've played and a far better game than 40k has ever been(played since 3rd) or WHFB(played from 6th). Of course, that doesn't mean rules need to be taken from it - rules don't exist in a vacuum.

FYI I do agree with you about 8th ed magic. That was a beautiful system.

Part of the smite problem is only some armies are even going to take psykers, not all of them can. So casually I see a lot of armies with no anti psychic ability. So when they run into an opponent with psykers it's "uhmagerd OP!". Internet lists are pushing "efficiency" and getting every CP possible from as little points as possible. That approach for many doesn't look to include psykers.

My own feeling is that stratagems have become a crutch for lazy rules writing and poor playtesting. How long did it take to get a stratagem to provide turn 1 cover against alpha strike ?

The most damning thing for me is that I managed to get most of my player group into AoS and 40k with the new editions. People love AoS but 40k has been largely dumped because they see it as being more fiddly to play and armies harder to build. The ever growing restrictions are stupid , yes I know you can ignore them but we want legal armies for events.

I must have missed the fluff piece where Azrael deployed the Deathwing but told the other 70 they couldn't go for reasons. the whole approach is starting to reflect the early days of Privateer Press destroying Warmahordes.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People wouldn't take as many Imperial Knights if they were getting chunked for 9+ Mortal Wounds a turn (low end) from armies, that's for sure.

They get a 5+++ from mortals for 1 CP point and they have 24 wounds. That is going to require 18 actual smites. To average a dead knight. So basically your whole army. A simple Farseer and 14 harliquen jetbikes will do just as much damage. Targeting the knight they want.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People wouldn't take as many Imperial Knights if they were getting chunked for 9+ Mortal Wounds a turn (low end) from armies, that's for sure.

They get a 5+++ from mortals for 1 CP point and they have 24 wounds. That is going to require 18 actual smites. To average a dead knight. So basically your whole army. A simple Farseer and 14 harliquen jetbikes will do just as much damage. Targeting the knight they want.

If we're operating under the assumption that they're a mechanicum knight and that you've devoted yourself to just one rather than having options, sure.

A counter point will always exist, you understood my primary point, there's no need for us to be pedantic about it.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People wouldn't take as many Imperial Knights if they were getting chunked for 9+ Mortal Wounds a turn (low end) from armies, that's for sure.

They get a 5+++ from mortals for 1 CP point and they have 24 wounds. That is going to require 18 actual smites. To average a dead knight. So basically your whole army. A simple Farseer and 14 harliquen jetbikes will do just as much damage. Targeting the knight they want.

If we're operating under the assumption that they're a mechanicum knight and that you've devoted yourself to just one rather than having options, sure.

A counter point will always exist, you understood my primary point, there's no need for us to be pedantic about it.

Nah my point is that mortal wounds aren't any better at killing knights that anti knight weapons and people still bring knights.

Beta smite was one of the dumbest rules I've ever seen and it actually made it through. It ruined your army as you pointed out. It really screwed my tyranids too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Nah my point is that mortal wounds aren't any better at killing knights that anti knight weapons and people still bring knights.

Beta smite was one of the dumbest rules I've ever seen and it actually made it through. It ruined your army as you pointed out. It really screwed my tyranids too.

You're viewing the beta rule from a biased position. There's a limit to how much you can make IG psykers cost before they're totally worthless rag dolls.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Nah my point is that mortal wounds aren't any better at killing knights that anti knight weapons and people still bring knights.

Beta smite was one of the dumbest rules I've ever seen and it actually made it through. It ruined your army as you pointed out. It really screwed my tyranids too.

You're viewing the beta rule from a biased position. There's a limit to how much you can make IG psykers cost before they're totally worthless rag dolls.

There is also a limit on how many primaris psykers you can include in an army anyways. I was talking about TS smite anyways. It's not half as effective as harlequin jet bikes against knights.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

It's a krak missile. As comparison, you're getting more hits with a Typhoon Missile Launcher assuming BS3+ and no modifiers. Also, it only forces fliers to explode AFAIK. Lastly, math has established the Smasha Gun as more cost-effective in all situations, even against fliers.

Sounds less and less like people are taking issue with the psychic phase and more like people are taking issue work their army's performance in said phase. Not helpful to conflate those.

Who do I need to send money to for us to get more leaks? I'm wasting away on this meager diet.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Who do I need to send money to for us to get more leaks? I'm wasting away on this meager diet.

Me too.

I want more leaks as well. You'd think there would be more by now.
I want to know if there are any more necron changes.

Well seen as we're talking about powers and crap.... if I had my way smite would only be allowed to be cast once and all other powers would be like the Ork powers able to teleport your units, give them more attacks, better saves, make them invisible (hehehehe joking on lastnone... we all remember what happened last time that happened).

Here's an idea for a Smite nerf... Keep all the current rules exactly as they are(range, damage, +1 to cast, and all of that), but if you fail a Smite attempt you can no longer cast Smite in that Psychic Phase or, if you wanted to get real crazy, if you fail a Smite attempt your whole Psychic Phase ends immediately. That would at least make you reconsider some of your spell choices possibly.

The problem with limiting how many times you can cast smite (or making you lose the rest of your phase entirely if it fails, yikes) is that you screw over psyker-heavy armies.

Smite really is not a problem anymore, not since Maelfic Lords got neutered and the "+1 for each successive casting attempt" rule was added.

Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

CassianSol wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Actually, I think it was more GW’s openness with the community and the destruction of the 7th edition that got people’s interest piqued. AOS was still in its first edition when 8th came out and people still thought it was utter gak. 2nd ed. Hasn’t changed my mind either.

People want to see GW do well, myself included. I didn’t like 7th ed. Any more than anyone else here, but truthfully 40k has always been a bad game, and 8th hasn’t changed that. They’ve just doubled down on the ridiculously stupid and immersion breaking rules of AOS rather than the mind-numbingly convoluted rules of 7th.

All I’m doing is calling it what it is. Bad. I’ve said that they made some good changes with 8, but for every positive change, they made a negative one.

The stuff I listed above is bad, and I don’t know how anyone can look at those rules with a straight face and call them good.

AOS is a brilliant game, best I've played and a far better game than 40k has ever been(played since 3rd) or WHFB(played from 6th). Of course, that doesn't mean rules need to be taken from it - rules don't exist in a vacuum.

FYI I do agree with you about 8th ed magic. That was a beautiful system.

You're both high. The 8th ed magic system was trash that had all the blandness of the current system combined with the OP bullgakness of 7th ed 40k layered on a cake of pointless tedium. The 7th edition 40k 'magic' system was easily the worst but WHFB 8th's was a close second.

Or they could go the other way on powers- remove the one cast per power limit, but add the +1 for each consecutive attempt and no more on a fail.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I would argue that popularity is never a good indicator of wheather or not some this good.

I’m certainly not arguing that 8th has been a success. It absolutely has. And that’s good for everyone in the long run.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss issues within the edition.

The simplicity I get, but you can only simplify to a point. I’m arguing that the game has been oversimplified to the point where it starts breaking down. Sometimes things need to be more complex to keep the game in check.

And I would argue that 8th ed WHFB had the best mechanics for magic/psychic phase that GW has ever produced. The issues with it were that the top level spells were too powerful and it didn’t scale. But generally the mechanics were sound.

Couldn't agree more

the current psychic phase is even worse and blander than the ''pass LD test'' we had a few editions ago. one of the main reason why I lost interest in 40k for the time being