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You're both high. The 8th ed magic system was trash that had all the blandness of the current system combined with the OP bullgakness of 7th ed 40k layered on a cake of pointless tedium. The 7th edition 40k 'magic' system was easily the worst but WHFB 8th's was a close second

Spoken like someone who hasn't got a clue what good rules look like. Don't you actually like AoS? The fact that you can defend that garbage pretty much says it all.

I guess we're really trying to hit rock bottom with these brain dead, oversimplified rules just so Timmy and his friends can smash models together.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You're both high. The 8th ed magic system was trash that had all the blandness of the current system combined with the OP bullgakness of 7th ed 40k layered on a cake of pointless tedium. The 7th edition 40k 'magic' system was easily the worst but WHFB 8th's was a close second

Spoken like someone who hasn't got a clue what good rules look like. Don't you actually like AoS? The fact that you can defend that garbage pretty much says it all.

I guess we're really trying to hit rock bottom with these brain dead, oversimplified rules just so Timmy and his friends can smash models together.

Insulting someone and calling a game system garbage in the news and rumors section isnt helping get your point across buddy. Your just part of the problem

str00dles1 wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You're both high. The 8th ed magic system was trash that had all the blandness of the current system combined with the OP bullgakness of 7th ed 40k layered on a cake of pointless tedium. The 7th edition 40k 'magic' system was easily the worst but WHFB 8th's was a close second

Spoken like someone who hasn't got a clue what good rules look like. Don't you actually like AoS? The fact that you can defend that garbage pretty much says it all.

I guess we're really trying to hit rock bottom with these brain dead, oversimplified rules just so Timmy and his friends can smash models together.

Insulting someone and calling a game system garbage in the news and rumors section isnt helping get your point across buddy. Your just part of the problem

To be fair he was accused of being high for his opinion first. Not saying either party involved is right, but it's ridiculous to call him out and not ERJAK

Opinions vary, never understood why folks get uppity on here as if either sides opinion means jack all to the folks writing the rules. Even if you change the other guys mind the cards are gona turn up the same in the end anyway.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You're both high. The 8th ed magic system was trash that had all the blandness of the current system combined with the OP bullgakness of 7th ed 40k layered on a cake of pointless tedium. The 7th edition 40k 'magic' system was easily the worst but WHFB 8th's was a close second

Spoken like someone who hasn't got a clue what good rules look like. Don't you actually like AoS? The fact that you can defend that garbage pretty much says it all.

I guess we're really trying to hit rock bottom with these brain dead, oversimplified rules just so Timmy and his friends can smash models together.

I happen to like AoS too, a lot in fact. It is better designed than 40K 8th, which is a well designed game. 40K 7th edition psyphase was the worst we ever had, totally bland and without a shred of tactical play. 8th is leagues better in that regard, with actual choices, counterplay and tactical positioning involved. 7th was "Ok here are my 800 dices that i will all dump into this one invisibility power so that you can't dissipate it", also "Oh crap i rolled 15 powers on telepathy and didn't get a single invisibility, GG".

I love this forum. Smite spam hasn't been a viable thing since early 8th when malefic lords were 30 points. Yet here we are still having this same argument. The smite beta rule wasn't even needed TBH but meh whatever. I mean its not like there are way worse things out there at the moment that need attention.

I do tend to agree though that the psychic phase in this edition is not very rewarding. Only being able to cast all powers but smite once is just pure laziness on GW's side. Yes there are some powers that should be limited to one cast only but definitely not all of them. Another thing that bugs me is that all of the zap spells are just smite 2.0 there is no variety. I miss 7th ed Tzeentch psychic shooting I would love for the zap spells to end up more like that.

Well that's too bad, we are all just sitting on our hands waiting for more leaks to come out and wishlisting to fill the time. It's really kind of lame that CA 2018 won't be out until after black friday, because that could definitely inform some of my purchases for the holidays, and without it we are kind of stuck in analysis paralysis.

For my contribution to wishlisting, I'd like allies to be limited to a single detachment, since they are you know allies and not the main force. It would make the game a hell of a lot easier to balance.

I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I love this forum. Smite spam hasn't been a viable thing since early 8th when malefic lords were 30 points. Yet here we are still having this same argument.

That’s because, as I said a few pages ago, Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable and anti-fun mechanic that negatively impacts the enjoyment of the game for many people, overall detracting from the health of the game. Smite Spam doesn’t even come into the equation except when people try to argue that it not being the current meta hotness somehow justifies MWs’ continued existence.


While we’re wishlisting for CA, I would like to see some sort of escalating synergy with army cohesion. I’ve advocated for this entire edition something along the lines of:

- Whole army shares Imperium keyword -> Battleforged, can use generic Stratagems
- Whole army shares Adeptus Astartes keyword -> can use Codex Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits
- Whole army shares Imperial Fists keyword -> can use Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits tied to the Imperial Fists keyword

Coupled with a ‘CP can only be used by the Detachment that generated it, base 3 can be used by Warlord’s faction’ or similar just about foxes Soup, making it still a viable way to build an army that has advantages and disadvantages. You’d also have to include a Mercenaries rule saying that units with that rule don’t count for the purposes of having your whole army containing the respective keywords. This would apply to things like Inquisitors, Assassins, Fabius Bile etc and anything taken in an Auxiliary Detachment (except Super-Heavy Auxiliary).

Won’t happen, but that’s not the point of wishlisting!

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Here's an idea for a Smite nerf... Keep all the current rules exactly as they are(range, damage, +1 to cast, and all of that), but if you fail a Smite attempt you can no longer cast Smite in that Psychic Phase or, if you wanted to get real crazy, if you fail a Smite attempt your whole Psychic Phase ends immediately. That would at least make you reconsider some of your spell choices possibly.

Right, because the one thing the psychic phase needs is to be more dependent on the outcome of a few dice rolls.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

 Blackie wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Do you know those lists already died with the nerf to CP regen eh?

 Blackie wrote:
I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Knights for sure, particularly when they’re allied to a screen that blocks your access to them so they can just blast away at you from afar. But Custodes? The Biker Captains with two 3++ relics are for sure, but that’s more a problem of the Supreme Command Detachment allowing access to multiples of them too easily. One 2+/3++/5+++ T6 W7 Captain is a challenge, 3 is just a drag. The rest of the Custodes army though? Guardians, Wardens, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders? They’re not particularly hard to kill given how much they cost.

Then isn't that easily solved by nerfing the jetbike captains?

Nah, bike captains are fine probably, they were dropped as soon as a better option came along. Compare them to a Daemon Prince for example.

The problem is, again, you get to triple dip on Relics and Stratagems, taking both the 3++ for the Captains but also being able to get your CP regen trait/relic and relic Castellan weapons with a warlord trait etc

Custdoes generally get worse with every new Codex it feels, more MW, more Damage 3, lots of multi damage etc

 Blackie wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Allies aren't the main issue. The fact a codex can't BE by itself is the issue.

You fix a way to make Custodes playable by themselves and MAYBE you won't have this issue.

Please stay on topic, thanks!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Allies aren't the main issue. The fact a codex can't BE by itself is the issue.

You fix a way to make Custodes playable by themselves and MAYBE you won't have this issue.

They are playable by themselves actually. Not top tiers but they do well in any real meta. The right fix would be merge those small factions into bigger ones, but GW politics is to sell more book so it won't gonna happen sadly.

And yes, soups are a huge issue at competitive levels. All the overpowered lists are soups. Not even the superscary drukhari and AM, without allies, are the real top tiers now. Maybe just knights, but again they're an army that shouldn't even exist, they should just be regular LoW and heavy support (the baby ones) choices for SM or some other imperium codexes.

Unfortunaltely in CA we won't have any significant changes to the allies mechanics, I just hope that points changes will be fair. For example I'm not totally in favor of discounting twin weapons like twin lascannons/ass cannons. Orks twin guns cost exactly like 2x the single gun's cost and the codex was released when CA was probably already printed.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Then isn't that easily solved by nerfing the jetbike captains?

Symptom rather than cause.

If CA changes or removes the supreme command detachment, and/or offers a new style for generating CPs, then I think we'll see more significant changes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Allies aren't the main issue. The fact a codex can't BE by itself is the issue.

You fix a way to make Custodes playable by themselves and MAYBE you won't have this issue.

The Thing that keeps them relevant is the -1 to hit banner. Possibly the most broken thing in the entire game.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'll second the motion. Allies can only be ONE detachment. That would totally kill the Guard/ Slam Captain/ Knight lists and the Guard/Slam Captain/ Custodes Jetbike Captain lists.

Which are, by far, the main issue about 40k. I'd approve the motion as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Yep, the main problem with smite have been cheap psykers being spamed. With the rule of 3 and most of those nerfed, smite is pretty fine. I would agree that most of the other powers could need a buff, as Smite should always be your backup choice, and not your game plan. Limiting the psychic phase further as it is now will just drop it from okayish to utter garbage. Saying the phase should be over after one failed attempt is like saying you are only allowed to shoot until you failed one shot and then the shooting phase is done. Limiting Smite to one cast per turn would also be a no go. There are armys like Tyranids, Daemons and Thousand Sons which can easily bring enough psykers to run out of powers. More generic powers would also be cool, would give psykers some flexibility back.

I agree, there's not a single army or even list that spams Smite sources and is overpowered. In many overpowered lists, on the other hand, there are things that are almost impossible to kill. Knights and custodes are the primary examples.

Allies aren't the main issue. The fact a codex can't BE by itself is the issue.

You fix a way to make Custodes playable by themselves and MAYBE you won't have this issue.

They are playable by themselves actually. Not top tiers but they do well in any real meta. The right fix would be merge those small factions into bigger ones, but GW politics is to sell more book so it won't gonna happen sadly.

And yes, soups are a huge issue at competitive levels. All the overpowered lists are soups. Not even the superscary drukhari and AM, without allies, are the real top tiers now. Maybe just knights, but again they're an army that shouldn't even exist, they should just be regular LoW and heavy support (the baby ones) choices for SM or some other imperium codexes.

Unfortunaltely in CA we won't have any significant changes to the allies mechanics, I just hope that points changes will be fair. For example I'm not totally in favor of discounting twin weapons like twin lascannons/ass cannons. Orks twin guns cost exactly like 2x the single gun's cost and the codex was released when CA was probably already printed.

How in denial does one have to be to think Custodes work as an individual army?

kombatwombat wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
I love this forum. Smite spam hasn't been a viable thing since early 8th when malefic lords were 30 points. Yet here we are still having this same argument.

That’s because, as I said a few pages ago, Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable and anti-fun mechanic that negatively impacts the enjoyment of the game for many people, overall detracting from the health of the game. Smite Spam doesn’t even come into the equation except when people try to argue that it not being the current meta hotness somehow justifies MWs’ continued existence.

That is great! That is your opinion but you are wrong. The fact that MW spam is in no way shape or form dominating the meta right now proves that they can be balanced. Also anyone who played the disaster that was 7th ed with 2+ re rolling invulnerable saves and invisible death stars knows the necessity of mortal wounds. Just because your personal opinion of a game mechanic is negative doesn't mean that mechanic is any more difficult to balance than anything else or that it is too strong. I don't like playing against T'au and almost never have any fun when I do. Doesn't mean they are too good or, impossible to balance, or a badly designed faction.

As far as wish listing goes I hope Rubric and Scarab Occult get a significant points drop. I would like to see them at 15 ppm instead of 20 ppm. I would also like to see the soul reaper and warp flamer get the kill team treatment and get discounted to 4 points each. Don't know what I would price SOT at but all terminators in general need a huge point drop. They are pretty much the exact same as rubrics just with 2 wounds instead of 1 and twice the shots. Its a hard balancing act since if one option is more cost effective than the other they perform the same role so you would always just take that option. I want to say 30ppm after upgrades but not sure if that would be enough.

Custodes don't work in any "real meta"

They work for fun games, but solo custodies is pure bad for anything remotely completive.

I own and tried it all, 20 bikes, mix, all the 30k stuff they brought over to 40k. the Telemon is great, but the problem is command points. I don't give two crap if they reduce the cost of all of it for them if I still cant get anywhere near the CPs others can get and generate. (also besides the telemon, all the 30k brought to 40k options are pretty crapo)

The notion of solo custodes being a viable option negates that opinion.

Dakka has weird opinions, and I guess there's always someone who thinks Grey Knights are an OP army.

To clarify before Dakka does it's normal thing, the GK comment is Hyperbole. It's a joke.

str00dles1 wrote:
Custodes don't work in any "real meta"

They work for fun games, but solo custodies is pure bad for anything remotely completive.

I own and tried it all, 20 bikes, mix, all the 30k stuff they brought over to 40k. the Telemon is great, but the problem is command points. I don't give two crap if they reduce the cost of all of it for them if I still cant get anywhere near the CPs others can get and generate. (also besides the telemon, all the 30k brought to 40k options are pretty crapo)

Which is why I said before and I'll say it again, they need a scaling system for CP generated. You should earn X CP for spending Y amount on your [Detachment] which ever it may be. What is breaking the game now is the fact that one faction/s gets the same CP from spending under 200 points that another faction gets for spending 500+ It's stupid. I'll go further and add that they REALLY need to tie CP to the faction that earns them as well. If you ally in guard and they bring with them 5 CP, that 5 CP should be only useable to them and not another faction keyword.

The Salt Mine wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
I love this forum. Smite spam hasn't been a viable thing since early 8th when malefic lords were 30 points. Yet here we are still having this same argument.

That’s because, as I said a few pages ago, Mortal Wounds are an unbalanceable and anti-fun mechanic that negatively impacts the enjoyment of the game for many people, overall detracting from the health of the game. Smite Spam doesn’t even come into the equation except when people try to argue that it not being the current meta hotness somehow justifies MWs’ continued existence.

That is great! That is your opinion but you are wrong. The fact that MW spam is in no way shape or form dominating the meta right now proves that they can be balanced. Also anyone who played the disaster that was 7th ed with 2+ re rolling invulnerable saves and invisible death stars knows the necessity of mortal wounds. Just because your personal opinion of a game mechanic is negative doesn't mean that mechanic is any more difficult to balance than anything else or that it is too strong. I don't like playing against T'au and almost never have any fun when I do. Doesn't mean they are too good or, impossible to balance, or a badly designed faction.

As far as wish listing goes I hope Rubric and Scarab Occult get a significant points drop. I would like to see them at 15 ppm instead of 20 ppm. I would also like to see the soul reaper and warp flamer get the kill team treatment and get discounted to 4 points each. Don't know what I would price SOT at but all terminators in general need a huge point drop. They are pretty much the exact same as rubrics just with 2 wounds instead of 1 and twice the shots. Its a hard balancing act since if one option is more cost effective than the other they perform the same role so you would always just take that option. I want to say 30ppm after upgrades but not sure if that would be enough.

Ah so because 7th had rerollable 2++ means 8th needs stupid unbalancable mortal wounds despite no rerollable 2++. Yep. Makes sense. NOT!

 Red Corsair wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Custodes don't work in any "real meta"

They work for fun games, but solo custodies is pure bad for anything remotely completive.

I own and tried it all, 20 bikes, mix, all the 30k stuff they brought over to 40k. the Telemon is great, but the problem is command points. I don't give two crap if they reduce the cost of all of it for them if I still cant get anywhere near the CPs others can get and generate. (also besides the telemon, all the 30k brought to 40k options are pretty crapo)

Which is why I said before and I'll say it again, they need a scaling system for CP generated. You should earn X CP for spending Y amount on your [Detachment] which ever it may be. What is breaking the game now is the fact that one faction/s gets the same CP from spending under 200 points that another faction gets for spending 500+ It's stupid. I'll go further and add that they REALLY need to tie CP to the faction that earns them as well. If you ally in guard and they bring with them 5 CP, that 5 CP should be only useable to them and not another faction keyword.

Ehh - it's not really a concern that CP stay with the generated faction if CP are based on points and not cheap troops. I think you'd like my system in which every battle froged army starts with say 15 CP at 2000 points and detachments don't give you CP - they take away.
Batallion/Brigade are -0 for the first and -1 for additionals
All the Elite/HS/FA options are -2 points
All allied detachments are an additional -1 to whatever the cost of your detachment
Super heavy aux -2
patrol -1
ect.

This system really rewards you for bringing 1 detachment. Mono Codex will have the most CP. You can still bring allied detachments but it probably going to cost you at least 2 CP or probably 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Custodes don't work in any "real meta"

They work for fun games, but solo custodies is pure bad for anything remotely completive.

I own and tried it all, 20 bikes, mix, all the 30k stuff they brought over to 40k. the Telemon is great, but the problem is command points. I don't give two crap if they reduce the cost of all of it for them if I still cant get anywhere near the CPs others can get and generate. (also besides the telemon, all the 30k brought to 40k options are pretty crapo)

Which is why I said before and I'll say it again, they need a scaling system for CP generated. You should earn X CP for spending Y amount on your [Detachment] which ever it may be. What is breaking the game now is the fact that one faction/s gets the same CP from spending under 200 points that another faction gets for spending 500+ It's stupid. I'll go further and add that they REALLY need to tie CP to the faction that earns them as well. If you ally in guard and they bring with them 5 CP, that 5 CP should be only useable to them and not another faction keyword.

Ehh - it's not really a concern that CP stay with the generated faction if CP are based on points and not cheap troops. I think you'd like my system in which every battle froged army starts with say 15 CP at 2000 points and detachments don't give you CP - they take away.
Batallion/Brigade are -0 for the first and -1 for additionals
All the Elite/HS/FA options are -2 points
All allied detachments are an additional -1 to whatever the cost of your detachment
Super heavy aux -2
patrol -1
ect.

This system really rewards you for bringing 1 detachment. Mono Codex will have the most CP. You can still bring allied detachments but it probably going to cost you at least 2 CP or probably 3.

I kind of like this idea. But 13 CP for someone who brings 4 Baneblades seems wrong. 11CP for 2 Knight SHA's?

-edit note - ** Mistaking Super Heavy Aux for The actual Super Heavy Detachments. But point still stands. This doesn't seem like it would fix the Knights who currently have to use some of their points for a loyal 32 **

MadMekRoff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Custodes don't work in any "real meta"

They work for fun games, but solo custodies is pure bad for anything remotely completive.

I own and tried it all, 20 bikes, mix, all the 30k stuff they brought over to 40k. the Telemon is great, but the problem is command points. I don't give two crap if they reduce the cost of all of it for them if I still cant get anywhere near the CPs others can get and generate. (also besides the telemon, all the 30k brought to 40k options are pretty crapo)

Which is why I said before and I'll say it again, they need a scaling system for CP generated. You should earn X CP for spending Y amount on your [Detachment] which ever it may be. What is breaking the game now is the fact that one faction/s gets the same CP from spending under 200 points that another faction gets for spending 500+ It's stupid. I'll go further and add that they REALLY need to tie CP to the faction that earns them as well. If you ally in guard and they bring with them 5 CP, that 5 CP should be only useable to them and not another faction keyword.

Ehh - it's not really a concern that CP stay with the generated faction if CP are based on points and not cheap troops. I think you'd like my system in which every battle froged army starts with say 15 CP at 2000 points and detachments don't give you CP - they take away.
Batallion/Brigade are -0 for the first and -1 for additionals
All the Elite/HS/FA options are -2 points
All allied detachments are an additional -1 to whatever the cost of your detachment
Super heavy aux -2
patrol -1
ect.

This system really rewards you for bringing 1 detachment. Mono Codex will have the most CP. You can still bring allied detachments but it probably going to cost you at least 2 CP or probably 3.

I kind of like this idea. But 13 CP for someone who brings 4 Baneblades seems wrong. 11CP for 2 Knight SHA's?

-edit note - ** Mistaking Super Heavy Aux for The actual Super Heavy Detachments. But point still stands. This doesn't seem like it would fix the Knights who currently have to use some of their points for a loyal 32 **

The point is armies shouldn't have to spend points in another army to generate command points. Individual stratagems that are too powerful and whatnot can be dealt with individually. All this system does is fix the stupidity of requiring a loyal 32 in the first place. Every army should be able to generate it's own command points and allies should cost you command points not give them to you.

Also - knight lists will still likely include a batallion of something to screen and probably end up with about the same CP in the process.
Batallion +5
Lance +6
Battleforged +3
=14

Currently in my system a knight lance is a +0 detachment (special detachments count as batallions in the point scheme)
and an allied batallion is -2 so they start with 13 in my system.

Realistically though - they stay the same - but if you are mono custodes your CP doubles.
If you are CSM that likes to run 1 batallion your CP almost doubles.
If you are IG spamming a brigade and 2 batallions your CP goes down dramatically.
If you were including 3 allied detachments that were not battalions - you are taking a -3 per allied detachment and -2 for allied batallions.

Including a Castellan and a supreme command jetbike for IG would give you.
-3 for castellan
-3 for custodes supreme command

- You'd have 9 CP

I do like that, I was just working up rather then backwards with penalties. I agree that CP shouldn't be tied to a faction with that method, but at the very least I like it as a second best fix to allies.

I kinda agree instead of making all psychic power 1 cast per turn. They should just limit it so psychic powers of 8 or more psychic power score can only be cast once per turn. Thus ensuring the strongest spells can only be cast once and minor psychic powers can be cast adnausem... adjust scores accordingly... the basic idea is your army is full of a certain amount of psychic energy each turn and you can only tap into so much before you drain that available energy.