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 cuda1179 wrote:
Intersessors need to have a bit more punch

I see what you did there.

kombatwombat wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Warhammer Community needs to get the previews rolling. The community is gonna eat itself alive at this rate.

I get the point of hyping a product, but in the case of Chapter Approved points changes, I can’t see what good it’s doing. You can’t hype people into buying points updates; the people who are going to buy the book for the updated points are going to buy it regardless, and the people who are going to just wait for the points to be posted online aren’t going to buy the points changes because of hype. By all means hype the other stuff in the book, but if anything, holding out on people with the points changes is doing more harm than good.

The 40k community seems to be holding its collective breath waiting for CA points changes. With no information, people are just speculating and wish-listing - as you said, eating itself alive. By not giving out any tidbits of points changes, GW is letting go of control of the hype, which means people are left to let their expectations bloom unchecked. Inevitably we’re all going to hype ourselves into expecting far more than CA can deliver, so the backlash is going to be savage. IMO, GW would be smarter to drip-feed us some of the points changes to help the community manage their expectations.

How is speculation and wishlisting "eating itself alive"? It's part of the fun leading up to a release. If people can't deal with that they shouldn't frequent a rumors thread.

nekooni wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Warhammer Community needs to get the previews rolling. The community is gonna eat itself alive at this rate.

I get the point of hyping a product, but in the case of Chapter Approved points changes, I can’t see what good it’s doing. You can’t hype people into buying points updates; the people who are going to buy the book for the updated points are going to buy it regardless, and the people who are going to just wait for the points to be posted online aren’t going to buy the points changes because of hype. By all means hype the other stuff in the book, but if anything, holding out on people with the points changes is doing more harm than good.

The 40k community seems to be holding its collective breath waiting for CA points changes. With no information, people are just speculating and wish-listing - as you said, eating itself alive. By not giving out any tidbits of points changes, GW is letting go of control of the hype, which means people are left to let their expectations bloom unchecked. Inevitably we’re all going to hype ourselves into expecting far more than CA can deliver, so the backlash is going to be savage. IMO, GW would be smarter to drip-feed us some of the points changes to help the community manage their expectations.

How is speculation and wishlisting "eating itself alive"? It's part of the fun leading up to a release. If people can't deal with that they shouldn't frequent a rumors thread.

Agreed. Personally, I like seeing what people think certain armies need. I do a lot of theory-crafting with my gaming group. It is part of the fun.

My wish list Formation would be for a formation for Space Marines(all flavors) that turns all Stalker weapons (Stalker Bolt Rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns) into Sniper weapons like the Sniper Rifle. As it stands, a Primaris army has no real way to deal with Characters short of blasting away at their screens. I don't want to run Sniper Scouts. I like regular Power Armor guys (even their Primaris variants) And really, the Stalker Bolt Rifle is supposed to be a Sniper Rifle anyway. Same with the Stalker Pattern Boltgun. And I am fine paying CP to get the ability to use them as such, just let me do so!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

nekooni wrote:

How is speculation and wishlisting "eating itself alive"? It's part of the fun leading up to a release. If people can't deal with that they shouldn't frequent a rumors thread.

Agreed. Personally, I like seeing what people think certain armies need. I do a lot of theory-crafting with my gaming group. It is part of the fun.

My wish list Formation would be for a formation for Space Marines(all flavors) that turns all Stalker weapons (Stalker Bolt Rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns) into Sniper weapons like the Sniper Rifle. As it stands, a Primaris army has no real way to deal with Characters short of blasting away at their screens. I don't want to run Sniper Scouts. I like regular Power Armor guys (even their Primaris variants) And really, the Stalker Bolt Rifle is supposed to be a Sniper Rifle anyway. Same with the Stalker Pattern Boltgun. And I am fine paying CP to get the ability to use them as such, just let me do so!

Yeah, I could have phrased that better. I also enjoy theorising and speculating - which is why I’m on a News and Rumours thread. No, what I meant was that I think we’re past the point of healthy speculation and have wandered into high expectations territory. The longer we have to wait for fixes, the more we will come to expect. I think now that we’ve been speculating for so long, people are starting to expect 11pt Marines, 10pt Necron Warriors and other sweeping changes. I’m concerned we’re expecting grand changes because we’ve been speculating and hoping so long that we have to believe all our hopes are justified. When realistically, what we’re more likely to get is about what we got last year, which is nowhere near the level people are hoping for.

I just think we’ve been waiting and speculating for so long that the community has created grand expectations, which are going to have a savage backlash when they’re not fulfilled that is ultimately going to hurt the community. Thereby, the community is damaging itself by speculating and hoping beyond a healthy point.


I’m all for Stalker Bolters to get a sniper rule, so long as they don’t cause god damned Mortal Wounds. MWs are a travesty of a mechanic that need to go the way of Invisibility and Destroyer weapons.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

nekooni wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Warhammer Community needs to get the previews rolling. The community is gonna eat itself alive at this rate.

I get the point of hyping a product, but in the case of Chapter Approved points changes, I can’t see what good it’s doing. You can’t hype people into buying points updates; the people who are going to buy the book for the updated points are going to buy it regardless, and the people who are going to just wait for the points to be posted online aren’t going to buy the points changes because of hype. By all means hype the other stuff in the book, but if anything, holding out on people with the points changes is doing more harm than good.

The 40k community seems to be holding its collective breath waiting for CA points changes. With no information, people are just speculating and wish-listing - as you said, eating itself alive. By not giving out any tidbits of points changes, GW is letting go of control of the hype, which means people are left to let their expectations bloom unchecked. Inevitably we’re all going to hype ourselves into expecting far more than CA can deliver, so the backlash is going to be savage. IMO, GW would be smarter to drip-feed us some of the points changes to help the community manage their expectations.

How is speculation and wishlisting "eating itself alive"? It's part of the fun leading up to a release. If people can't deal with that they shouldn't frequent a rumors thread.

Agreed. Personally, I like seeing what people think certain armies need. I do a lot of theory-crafting with my gaming group. It is part of the fun.

My wish list Formation would be for a formation for Space Marines(all flavors) that turns all Stalker weapons (Stalker Bolt Rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns) into Sniper weapons like the Sniper Rifle. As it stands, a Primaris army has no real way to deal with Characters short of blasting away at their screens. I don't want to run Sniper Scouts. I like regular Power Armor guys (even their Primaris variants) And really, the Stalker Bolt Rifle is supposed to be a Sniper Rifle anyway. Same with the Stalker Pattern Boltgun. And I am fine paying CP to get the ability to use them as such, just let me do so!

The eating itself alive thing is a bit silly but the OP still has a good point.

There isn't really much to gain keeping things under wraps because the majority of people who care about chapter approved in the first place are holding off their purchases until they know what's gonna change. Sisters of Battle players aren't buying anything, although tbf to GW, SoB players weren't buying all that much stuff before.

kombatwombat wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

nekooni wrote:

How is speculation and wishlisting "eating itself alive"? It's part of the fun leading up to a release. If people can't deal with that they shouldn't frequent a rumors thread.

Agreed. Personally, I like seeing what people think certain armies need. I do a lot of theory-crafting with my gaming group. It is part of the fun.

My wish list Formation would be for a formation for Space Marines(all flavors) that turns all Stalker weapons (Stalker Bolt Rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns) into Sniper weapons like the Sniper Rifle. As it stands, a Primaris army has no real way to deal with Characters short of blasting away at their screens. I don't want to run Sniper Scouts. I like regular Power Armor guys (even their Primaris variants) And really, the Stalker Bolt Rifle is supposed to be a Sniper Rifle anyway. Same with the Stalker Pattern Boltgun. And I am fine paying CP to get the ability to use them as such, just let me do so!

I’m all for Stalker Bolters to get a sniper rule, so long as they don’t cause god damned Mortal Wounds. MWs are a travesty of a mechanic that need to go the way of Invisibility and Destroyer weapons.

Oh for sure, though honestly the Stalker Bolt Rifle and Stalker Pattern Boltgun should ALREADY be able to target characters. That's why they cost the points they do. What they should be doing with the Stratagem is adding the MW mechanic. And that way, people like you could, in your own games, say we aren't allowing that Stratagem because we don't like MW.

‘Let’s not play with MWs’ is a really, really hard sell. It completely invalidates the Psychic Phase, makes many units’ gimmick useless, removes vehicle explosions and overheating weapons etc. What we really need is for MWs to just be replaced with a normal weapon profile, but since they’re all from different sources at that point you’re just creating a fan Edition. Which is cool, but good luck getting anyone to play it with you.

MW mechanic is a hard counter to the invuln bloat in the game. People asking for it to be stripped out is understandable, because the 'feel' of eating MWs is pretty rubbish, but look at it from the perspective of counter-play. Invuln units would proliferate like bunnies at Easter, imo.

Would they though? Consider what units have Invulnerable Saves:

- Daemon hordes - if you’re relying on MWs to counter these you’re doing it wrong. Drop the Soulburner and pick up a bolter.
- Daemon Princes and some similarly sized monsters - if you’re struggling to kill these then I really don’t know what to tell you. Pack another Autocannon or some other low-AP, multi-damage weapon.
- Daemon Primarchs - are a challenge, but if you’re investing 600pts in a single unit that acts as the cornerstone for your whole army, maybe it’s a good thing it doesn’t die instantly to a Shadowsword.
- Knights - think about taking something other than Plasma and Lascannons; list variety is a good thing. Or just punch it in close combat.
- Hard-hitting HQs - are relatively rare, or at least should be; if they’re common it’s another problem caused by the Supreme Command Detachment. Also, these guys don’t enjoy low-AP, multi-damage weapons any more than Daemon Princes do.
- Elite units like Custodes and Terminators - Jesus if there’s any unit type that doesn’t need a counter it’s these sorry buggers, they are countered by everything this Edition and pay through the nose for durability. A mechanic that subverts their supposed durability is tantamount to treading on a day-old puppy: unfair, cruel and cowardly.


As I’ve been saying for a full year now, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition solution to a 7th Edition problem. They’re an answer to a question that simply no longer exists.

 Crimson wrote:

Spoiler:

Technically off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread for just this. From the Primaris Facebook group, as reported, Emperor's Spears tactic is sixes causing two hits in the melee. As they don't seem to have an associated stratagem, I wonder if they can use Ultramarine stratagem as Ultra successors...

I’d personally be surprised if they are allowed to use the Ultramarines stratagem and WL trait etc, as they have their own Chapter Tactic and thus “wouldn’t be” Ultramarines, even if a successor.

Looking forward to what CA and the Vigilus book gives us! It just needs to hurry up!!

Kdash wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoiler:

Technically off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread for just this. From the Primaris Facebook group, as reported, Emperor's Spears tactic is sixes causing two hits in the melee. As they don't seem to have an associated stratagem, I wonder if they can use Ultramarine stratagem as Ultra successors...

I’d personally be surprised if they are allowed to use the Ultramarines stratagem and WL trait etc, as they have their own Chapter Tactic and thus “wouldn’t be” Ultramarines, even if a successor.

Looking forward to what CA and the Vigilus book gives us! It just needs to hurry up!!

Exactly. Black Templars are Imperial Fists Successors, but they don't get to use the IF Stratagem or Warlord Trait. Emperor's Spears would be no different.

kombatwombat wrote:
Would they though? Consider what units have Invulnerable Saves:

- Daemon hordes - if you’re relying on MWs to counter these you’re doing it wrong. Drop the Soulburner and pick up a bolter.
- Daemon Princes and some similarly sized monsters - if you’re struggling to kill these then I really don’t know what to tell you. Pack another Autocannon or some other low-AP, multi-damage weapon.
- Daemon Primarchs - are a challenge, but if you’re investing 600pts in a single unit that acts as the cornerstone for your whole army, maybe it’s a good thing it doesn’t die instantly to a Shadowsword.
- Knights - think about taking something other than Plasma and Lascannons; list variety is a good thing. Or just punch it in close combat.
- Hard-hitting HQs - are relatively rare, or at least should be; if they’re common it’s another problem caused by the Supreme Command Detachment. Also, these guys don’t enjoy low-AP, multi-damage weapons any more than Daemon Princes do.
- Elite units like Custodes and Terminators - Jesus if there’s any unit type that doesn’t need a counter it’s these sorry buggers, they are countered by everything this Edition and pay through the nose for durability. A mechanic that subverts their supposed durability is tantamount to treading on a day-old puppy: unfair, cruel and cowardly.


As I’ve been saying for a full year now, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition solution to a 7th Edition problem. They’re an answer to a question that simply no longer exists.

Drukhari Coven, Drukhari Vehicles, Harlequins, Zoanthropes, Genestealers and Knights all have invuls and are to some degree kept in check by MW. Knights would be even more dangerous if a volley of haywire didn't drop them.

“The community eating itself alive” is pretty hyperbolic, and even if it were true is not something anyone is responsible for or beholden to. The only people responsible are those arguing themselves into a frenzy.

That you can chat all day about your wargaming hopes and fears is cool, the internet is great, but it doesn’t mean anyone is obligated to dripfeed you anything early.

Just paint some of your Grey Pile Of Shame and wait for the release. It’s not like the world will end (it might, but by Trump’s hand not GW’s) or an online discussion/fight will change what was printed in a book around three months ago that gets released in a few weeks.

Drager wrote:Drukhari Coven, Drukhari Vehicles, Harlequins, Zoanthropes, Genestealers and Knights all have invuls and are to some degree kept in check by MW. Knights would be even more dangerous if a volley of haywire didn't drop them.

Drukhari Coven, Harlequins and Genestealers all die in droves to your preferred flavour of bolter fire. Zoanthropes are 3-Wound Tacticals; you can kill Tacticals without resorting to high-AP weaponry. MWs not being necessary to counter Knights is clearly shown by armies that can’t spam them - like Marines and Custodes - not being helpless against Knights. Also, given that MWs generally come in twos and threes, they’re not a fantastic way to kill Knights unless you spam them.

JohnnyHell wrote:“The community eating itself alive” is pretty hyperbolic, and even if it were true is not something anyone is responsible for or beholden to. The only people responsible are those arguing themselves into a frenzy.

That you can chat all day about your wargaming hopes and fears is cool, the internet is great, but it doesn’t mean anyone is obligated to dripfeed you anything early.

Just paint some of your Grey Pile Of Shame and wait for the release. It’s not like the world will end (it might, but by Trump’s hand not GW’s) or an online discussion/fight will change what was printed in a book around three months ago that gets released in a few weeks.

Yeah it was definitely hyperbolic, but I was just using the exact words of the OP because they made me think about it. I’m also not saying that we are entitled to receive an early drip feed by any measure, but GW might be smart to do it to mitigate the invevitable backlash of disappointing people who have got their hopes up.

And what Grey Pile of Shame? Unpainted models? No, never!

And there's stuff like multi damage AP-1 or -2(so ideal against inv saves) with multiple shots...I don't even recall when I played with MW spamming yet have lived with them. Lots of stuff from those it's not even the inv save that's problem but the unholy speed+tripointing like with genestealers). Lack of inv saves wouldn't make those much softer. If I can shoot them they die.

I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Exactly. Black Templars are Imperial Fists Successors, but they don't get to use the IF Stratagem or Warlord Trait. Emperor's Spears would be no different.

Black Templars are specifically restricted from using IF stratagem. I reread the rules, and as they currently stand, the Spears can absolutely use the Ultra stratagem. "If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems (they don't,) you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter."

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Exactly. Black Templars are Imperial Fists Successors, but they don't get to use the IF Stratagem or Warlord Trait. Emperor's Spears would be no different.

Black Templars are specifically restricted from using IF stratagem. I reread the rules, and as they currently stand, the Spears can absolutely use the Ultra stratagem. "If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems (they don't,) you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter."

Huh. Fair enough. Then they theoretically should be able to use the Stratagem. They explicitly can't use the Warlord Trait or the Relic though. I wonder how many "Ultramarines Successors" actually follow that rule though.

 Aaranis wrote:
I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.

kombatwombat wrote:

Drager wrote:Drukhari Coven, Drukhari Vehicles, Harlequins, Zoanthropes, Genestealers and Knights all have invuls and are to some degree kept in check by MW. Knights would be even more dangerous if a volley of haywire didn't drop them.

Drukhari Coven, Harlequins and Genestealers all die in droves to your preferred flavour of bolter fire.

Genestealers, sure. Harlequins, yes for the most part. Coven? Not at all! If we look at the Coven units that are tournament staples, Grotesques and Taloi then no they don't die in droves to bolters. Taking a wound of a Grotesque takes 10 bolter shots, so that's 40 bolter shots to kill one. Typically you see at least 7 of them in a list, so you need to put 280 bolter shots into them to kill them at a minimum. Taloi, on the other hand, take 114 bolter shots to kill per model and often you see 5+ of them at the same time as the 7 grotesques. I'm not sure where you're gettting 850 bolter shots from in a game where these things are attacking you back and you are also under fire from Ravagers, Hemlocks, Wave Serpents, Reapers, Spears or some other eldar unit.

kombatwombat wrote:
Zoanthropes are 3-Wound Tacticals; you can kill Tacticals without resorting to high-AP weaponry.

Sort of, but in a very different army ecology. You can't dedicate the volume of fire to Zoans if you need it for the previously mentioned stealers, or horms or terms. Overwhelming the volume of fire you have is a common nid tactic and not having to fear mortals makes them much better at it.

kombatwombat wrote:
MWs not being necessary to counter Knights is clearly shown by armies that can’t spam them - like Marines and Custodes - not being helpless against Knights. Also, given that MWs generally come in twos and threes, they’re not a fantastic way to kill Knights unless you spam them.

Mortals are the best way to kill knights for Aeldari, particularly Drukhari. They use Haywire Cannons (Quins) and Haywire Blasters (Scourges and Taloi) extensively for this, taking that away and nerfing dissies (which everyone agrees is needed) leaves them with pretty much no answer to knights. Other armies with other tools can deal with knights? Great! That doesn't help the armies designed with mortal wounds built in for the purpose.

kombatwombat wrote:



As I’ve been saying for a full year now, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition solution to a 7th Edition problem. They’re an answer to a question that simply no longer exists.

And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

IMO the best way to "tone-down" MW proliferation is to change Smite to no-longer do MWs. At least not in its base level cast.
At the same time, you could up the number of auto-wounds it can do, so that we also get more Horde-control in the game.
I had proposed this here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/767109.page
This was the change proposed:

 Galef wrote:
"Smite has a warp charge value of 5. If manifested, the closest visible enemy unit within 18" of the psyker suffers D6 automatic wounds at AP-1, Damage 1.
If the result of the Psychic test was 10 or higher, the target suffers D6 mortal wounds instead."

IMO, this would not only tone-down the MW proliferation in the game as a whole, but also gives slightly more Horde control as Smite in this form has better results against units without decent saves and potentially does more wounds.
It also still grants MWs for those relying on Smite for bigger targets, but you have to roll higher for it to work.
This change also requires the removal of the Smite limitation that makes successive castings harder

-

Drager wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

Drager wrote:Drukhari Coven, Drukhari Vehicles, Harlequins, Zoanthropes, Genestealers and Knights all have invuls and are to some degree kept in check by MW. Knights would be even more dangerous if a volley of haywire didn't drop them.

Drukhari Coven, Harlequins and Genestealers all die in droves to your preferred flavour of bolter fire.

Genestealers, sure. Harlequins, yes for the most part. Coven? Not at all! If we look at the Coven units that are tournament staples, Grotesques and Taloi then no they don't die in droves to bolters. Taking a wound of a Grotesque takes 10 bolter shots, so that's 40 bolter shots to kill one. Typically you see at least 7 of them in a list, so you need to put 280 bolter shots into them to kill them at a minimum. Taloi, on the other hand, take 114 bolter shots to kill per model and often you see 5+ of them at the same time as the 7 grotesques. I'm not sure where you're gettting 850 bolter shots from in a game where these things are attacking you back and you are also under fire from Ravagers, Hemlocks, Wave Serpents, Reapers, Spears or some other eldar unit.

kombatwombat wrote:
Zoanthropes are 3-Wound Tacticals; you can kill Tacticals without resorting to high-AP weaponry.

Sort of, but in a very different army ecology. You can't dedicate the volume of fire to Zoans if you need it for the previously mentioned stealers, or horms or terms. Overwhelming the volume of fire you have is a common nid tactic and not having to fear mortals makes them much better at it.

kombatwombat wrote:
MWs not being necessary to counter Knights is clearly shown by armies that can’t spam them - like Marines and Custodes - not being helpless against Knights. Also, given that MWs generally come in twos and threes, they’re not a fantastic way to kill Knights unless you spam them.

Mortals are the best way to kill knights for Aeldari, particularly Drukhari. They use Haywire Cannons (Quins) and Haywire Blasters (Scourges and Taloi) extensively for this, taking that away and nerfing dissies (which everyone agrees is needed) leaves them with pretty much no answer to knights. Other armies with other tools can deal with knights? Great! That doesn't help the armies designed with mortal wounds built in for the purpose.

The main issue is the ability to spam mortal wounds like nobody's business. Aldari Soup doesn't just use MW haywire they also use a bunch of Pshycic powers to take that conversion rate of MW into the stratosphere.
Haywire plus guide and Doom is not balanced against anything.

Like seriously if you vehical doesn't have a FNP just don't even bother, especially when the unit unleashing such weapons are 4++ and - to hit already with strategums to stack on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:



As I’ve been saying for a full year now, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition solution to a 7th Edition problem. They’re an answer to a question that simply no longer exists.

And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

Except MW don't help at all it just makes paying for a normal armour save or AP the most bloody useless thing in the game hence the cheap chaff and MW spam.
Invulnerable saves got out of hand but just giving another way to ignore even more saves as MW still ignore armour just devalues even having an armour save further so it's even more of an invulnerable save or trash meta, bordering on becoming a FNP or trash meta.

Escalation does not remove problems with the design it just moved them to the next level.

Ice_can wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.

You seem to be missing the drones, and there is no way a DA player is going to get a shot in on a riptide with shield drones about. Also the part about the various soup flavors is pure deflection, and more than moderately untrue. Tau have the most Wins out of any single faction codex, and perform better than many soup configurations.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Exactly. Black Templars are Imperial Fists Successors, but they don't get to use the IF Stratagem or Warlord Trait. Emperor's Spears would be no different.

Black Templars are specifically restricted from using IF stratagem. I reread the rules, and as they currently stand, the Spears can absolutely use the Ultra stratagem. "If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems (they don't,) you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter."

Huh. Fair enough. Then they theoretically should be able to use the Stratagem. They explicitly can't use the Warlord Trait or the Relic though. I wonder how many "Ultramarines Successors" actually follow that rule though.

If someone runs a Rainbow Warriors army they're running Ultramarines for all intents and purposes. I assume we can all agree on that much at least (I'd go even further, saying you could run your IF successors as Salamanders or your Ultramarines 4th company as Iron Hands so long as you were clear about it.)

The problem is that Imperial Fists have those two successors with a strong individual identity. GW wants it clear that the Black Templar and Crimson Fists chapter tactics are replacements to, not expansions on the Imperial Fists chapter tactics (except then they decoded to save space and trouble by having the Crimson Fists CT refer to the Imperial Fists CT and - gah!) and likewise if someone was to introduce new CTs (Forgeworld...) they don't want people arguing one that doesn't get new unique relics gets to take them from their parent chapter, etc.

It's not meant to restrict people from painting their marines one of the 8 specific meticulously picked out colour schemes, it's meant to prevent people from building OP mish-mash chapter tactics in a single detachment.

While I understand the worry of tacticals being phased out, I agree with most others that this won't occur until primaris intercessors have the full weapon options available to them.

However, what is everyone's thoughts on the other more specialized "tactical" armor platform marines, they can't possibly be planning on replacing all of them as well can they?

I'm referring to your Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard - basically the BA and SW specific normal marines?

If the got rid of those entries it would essentially gut those chapters as being different from normal chapter marines. I mean what about Terminators of all flavors? There is no way they can get rid of such an iconic unit to not only the game but he setting.

EldarExarch wrote:

If the got rid of those entries it would essentially gut those chapters as being different from normal chapter marines.

Good. Then they all can be combined in one book.

 Hulksmash wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:



As I’ve been saying for a full year now, Mortal Wounds are an 8th Edition solution to a 7th Edition problem. They’re an answer to a question that simply no longer exists.

And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

The mortal wound mechanic is not a fix for that. The largest problem in your above list mechanic set is the minus to hit stacking. Also GW needs to deal with the invuln problem. Any invuln better than 4++ is a problem, always has been, always will be, no matter the edition. Riptides are a lot less of a problem than in 7th in 8th. Magnus and Morty combo is well.. heh.. that specifically is the issue with included SPECIAL CHARACTERS in regular games. Such characters are always overpowered and game unbalancing. Always will be. It was why special chars were actually banned from tournaments for more than a decade.

Mortal wounds solve none of those fundamental problems while introducing more issues. Mortal wounds is as bad as D-Scythe spam in 7th. The idea behind D weapons was their rarity AND power, D should never have been part of a non-super heavy option. But hey super-eldar Tough10, 2+, FNP mega Wraith Knights were a thing as well.

The idea of hitting another player with something that allows no option, no possibility of mitigation is fundamentally a BAD RULE. That's why the minus to hit is so bad because players are GOING to abuse it, I said so before 8th dropped and I knew I was right then. Minus to hit was only in game editions where there was also the TOHIT GREATER THAN 6. Chances were pretty damned slim you'd hit, but the POSSIBILITY remained. Right now I've seen unhittable in ranged and melee combo units on the board. It's worse than Super Friends.

Mechanics when written need to remove the concept of "impossible". There should always be "a chance", if slim. Or there should be a specific troop type or weapon that exists as a counter. Cost benefit to include or not is up to the player. But if you spam lasguns you shouldn't be able to hurt a GD Baneblade no matter how many you fire at it. Take an anti-vehicle weapon.

8th was clearly not playtested and many of it's initial rules were copy and pasted from previous editions without including or understanding WHY those editions had those mechanics and the mechanics that went along with them. I mean losing models to moral was a thing back in.. what.. was that 5th I think, 2008ish. So losing models to morale from shooting I suppose isn't a stretch even if I don't like it particularly as a mechanic outside of melee. The idea of space marines bugging out of a fight while their brother's stay is somewhat silly.

Mortal wounds were a band-aid fix to an old problem that should have been fixed in other ways. If mortal wounds stayed they should have been something VERY RARE and SPECIAL. Not a base line every one can take NUKE (smite spam) which got so bad they had to change the rules. Or changing the game so that the most important thing in the game whas WHO GOT FIRST TURN because we just made 40K into Alpha Strike Game.

How about deepstrike charges, first turn charges, etc, things every previous edition knew was a BAD IDEA. Now those rules are changing. I mean in the editions all the way through 7th there were ways to avoid scatter at all with deep strike units. Some could even charge on turn of arrival in exchange for some penalty. I never had problems with scatter in 7th for instance because I was smart enough to bring along other models with things like BEACONS.. or jammers if I was trying to screw with my opponent. You know.. TACTICS. Not like the feck all lack of tactics of 8th because everything does what you want it do and goes and its like a perfect day.

Odd for people to complain about mortal wounds when there are so many things in the game much scarier and more competitive than mortal wounds.

 Virules wrote:
Odd for people to complain about mortal wounds when there are so many things in the game much scarier and more competitive than mortal wounds.

Since smite spam got nerfed hard, there barely even ARE any mortal wounds in the game anymore. Ya'll just lucky you don't play sigmar. Same total number of wounds per army, same number of FNPs, 10 times the amount of mortal wounds.

Even smite spam in it's heyday couldn't kick out as many mortal wounds as an average Sigmar army can. You used to be able to get 12 malefic lords worth of MWs out of a single UNIT in Disciple of Tzeentch.