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Yeah I’m not sure what the solution is now either. I had a really nice one worked out for an escalating synergy depending on how many keywords your army shared, but now that GW have said they don’t want to penalise I have to come up with something new.

I don’t think it’s only a CP issue though (despite that being a goodly part of the problem), so I don’t think CP bonuses can be the whole solution. I’ll give you an example of the problem - I played a game last weekend against a Genestealer Cults list. Guard have great artillery but terrible close combat. GSC have great close combat but terrible shooting. Big squads of Genestealers and Hormagaunts backed up by Guard Artillery and a pack of Zoanthropes to dominate the Psychic phase; exactly what weakness was I supposed to leverage?

kombatwombat wrote:
Yeah I’m not sure what the solution is now either. I had a really nice one worked out for an escalating synergy depending on how many keywords your army shared, but now that GW have said they don’t want to penalise I have to come up with something new.

I don’t think it’s only a CP issue though (despite that being a goodly part of the problem), so I don’t think CP bonuses can be the whole solution. I’ll give you an example of the problem - I played a game last weekend against a Genestealer Cults list. Guard have great artillery but terrible close combat. GSC have great close combat but terrible shooting. Big squads of Genestealers and Hormagaunts backed up by Guard Artillery and a pack of Zoanthropes to dominate the Psychic phase; exactly what weakness was I supposed to leverage?

GSC take a turn to be able to do cult ambush so then would've probably been your best chance to do something.

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah that's a big No to just bundling in Sisters of Silence to Inquisition.
Thats terrible treatment of a faction thats already been short changed once by GW because god forbid they be included ib a codex talons, nope had to be codex bling biker boys only.
It also removes a chance to actually bring less cheesey female faction into the game.
While Sister of battle next year is possibly a good thing for those that want it they do fallow the classic nuns with guns theme way to obviously.

Terrible treatment? You have to be joking. One of the primary reasons why the Sisters of Battle are allowed to continue existing at all is because they are sworn to the service of the Imperial Inquisition as the Ordo Hereticus's Chamber Militant. Indeed, the Ecclesiarchy no longer has the remit to go around rooting out the heretic; that's the Inquisition's job. So really, without the Inquisition, they would just be nuns, not nuns with guns.

Also, why complain specifically about Sisters? The Deathwatch and Grey Knights also serve at the beck and call of the Inquisition. You're complaining about very vanilla stuff.

Oh, and to be clear, the Agents codex wouldn't replace the Sisters codex. It would simply be an Inquisition-focused codex. And the nature of the Inquisition is to assemble Retinues of crack troops. Inquisitors also can summon their Chamber Militant to the field. So imagine Sisters, Scions, and a Jokaero riding in a Chimera, popping out, and just laying waste to heretic vehicles.

Suzuteo wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah that's a big No to just bundling in Sisters of Silence to Inquisition.
Thats terrible treatment of a faction thats already been short changed once by GW because god forbid they be included ib a codex talons, nope had to be codex bling biker boys only.
It also removes a chance to actually bring less cheesey female faction into the game.
While Sister of battle next year is possibly a good thing for those that want it they do fallow the classic nuns with guns theme way to obviously.

Terrible treatment? You have to be joking. One of the primary reasons why the Sisters of Battle are allowed to continue existing at all is because they are sworn to the service of the Imperial Inquisition as the Ordo Hereticus's Chamber Militant. Indeed, the Ecclesiarchy no longer has the remit to go around rooting out the heretic; that's the Inquisition's job. So really, without the Inquisition, they would just be nuns, not nuns with guns.

Also, why complain specifically about Sisters? The Deathwatch and Grey Knights also serve at the beck and call of the Inquisition. You're complaining about very vanilla stuff.

They said Sisters of Silence, not Sisters of Battle.

Ohhh. Ignore what I said then. I misread that. Must have been the part at the end about nuns with guns. Haha.

I think Sisters of Silence should have a place in the Agents codex because they are an agency of the Imperium, just like the Inquisition and Assassins. Specifically, they help harvest and regulate psykers. I highly doubt they would get their own codex, but then again, I didn't see Custodes coming either.

 kastelen wrote:

GSC take a turn to be able to do cult ambush so then would've probably been your best chance to do something.

I play a combat army, so he didn’t have to Cult Ambush; he could just hide behind the Hornagaunt screen and wait for me to come to him. I dunno, it was just one of those games where I felt like a spectator rather than a player and couldn’t see any way to change that.

Edit: Come to think of it, feeling like a spectator rather than a player has happened to me about a dozen times this edition, and they’re fall into two camps: playing against a Soup army that makes me feel like I’ve brought a bent butterknife to a nuclear war, or playing against lots of Mortal Wounds that make me feel like I might as well go grab a beer while my opponent removes my models at their discretion.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No, no. Don't go letting them know Shield Captains aren't Chapter masters. They're gonna be very mad to find out that Custodes leave Terra, and even in master of mankind team up with, quite specifically, a jump pack blood angel while fighting alongside imperial guard.

We're filthy powergamer waac lepers and should be shunned.

Gonna need you to point out where I said any of that.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Also, unironically complaining about shield captains after everyone has their codex? Hilarious, Custodes aren't bullying anyone at this point.

Did completely miss my point?

My point, for the third damned time, is that the Force Org Chart means nothing. Because you can just take another one, and how there are 15 bazillion different versions, each allowing you to get exactly what units you want, it makes the whole thing completely purposeless.

And let's not kid ourselves, people taking 3 Shield Captains aren't doing so because of fluff any more than people taking 2 pre-nerf Smashcaptains. Or a pre-nerf Guard commander for the CP stealing/refunding ability.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not the one who cares how people use their dolls. You play your army however you damn well please, and I will never, ever apply a pejorative to you for choosing to do so.

I have a very different take.

I think tournaments are great, and I have zero interest in ever participating in one (again). I think that fluffy armies should be the most powerful lists out there, and that the rules should be balanced (ie. perfect imbalance - as actual balance is impossible) to allow for that. I don't like what I actually see at tournaments, which is mass soup armies abusing the pathetically lax "Force Org Chart" system to bring whatever the feth they want in the most cut-throat combinations possible.

"But it's a tournament! That's the point!" Yes, but, again, the most cut-throat most dangerous lists should be the ones that follow the fluff. The fact that they don't is a failing of the game, not the players.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
... gatekeeping ... toxic attitude...

This ain't Tumblr. Ditch the zero content buzzwords.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm a big fan of giving mono-list armies 6CP to start instead of the usually 3.

How does an additional 3 CP compare to simply building a good list?

Stratagems are made out to be far more important than they actually are. Games aren't won because someone used CPs to bend the rules. Games are won because someone made optimal choices in building their list and played to their army's strengths.

Saying this as a Black Legion player. The most soup I ever run is a Bloodletter bomb. I don't play it often, but I'd go crazy if the option was taken away.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
... gatekeeping ... toxic attitude...

This ain't Tumblr. Ditch the zero content buzzwords.

Do you one better. Word salad is a defense for people with no point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:
Ohhh. Ignore what I said then. I misread that. Must have been the part at the end about nuns with guns. Haha.

I think Sisters of Silence should have a place in the Agents codex because they are an agency of the Imperium, just like the Inquisition and Assassins. Specifically, they help harvest and regulate psykers. I highly doubt they would get their own codex, but then again, I didn't see Custodes coming either.

Consider GW ruled out an Agents of the Imperium Codex, why are we still talking about it?

Sure, it would make me happy, but so would things with a realistic chance of happening.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Soup would be less of an issue of the Force Org Charge actually meant something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

Yeah. When people bring three Custodes HQs and no other Custodes units in their Guard/Blood Angel/Knight army. That's real fluffy.

To be honet it does seem kind of fluffy to me- The Cutodes are as a group the best trained group of military minds in the Imperium, and always have been. There is also an established precedent for them going out to do missions solo or in pairs or small groups, an certainly to fulfill the function of being the eyes, ears, and voice of the emperor when needed.

It's not big jump to think that in thier new proactive era that if they couldn't be there in force they would just take over command.

It just happens to be huge % of their commanders and not say normal custodians. After all there's more shield captains than there are regular bike custodians eh?

Can one of the mods change the title and location of this thread please? I've looked here a few times for rumours on CA/Vigilus models and every time see discussion around something completely unrelated. It's becoming tedious.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can one of the mods change the title and location of this thread please? I've looked here a few times for rumours on CA/Vigilus models and every time see discussion around something completely unrelated. It's becoming tedious.

To be fair, if speculation is allowed on a Rumours forum, then speculating about changes to Soup and CP generation are theoretically on-topic.

Whether or not multiple Shield Captains is fluffy probably isn’t, though.

kombatwombat wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can one of the mods change the title and location of this thread please? I've looked here a few times for rumours on CA/Vigilus models and every time see discussion around something completely unrelated. It's becoming tedious.

To be fair, if speculation is allowed on a Rumours forum, then speculating about changes to Soup and CP generation are theoretically on-topic.

Whether or not multiple Shield Captains is fluffy probably isn’t, though.

Well, Vigilus is re-introducing formations and that is going to have a big impact on CPs.

Has GW actually said anything about the new Vigilus release and soup? The only things I read were that they have no plans to change it.

Where is the news or rumour about any changes to Soup or CP generation in this thread though?

The chat has gone off topic since the last pics of new models. Speculation does not belong in the news and rumours space of the board, which as my understanding is for actual news and rumours. Speculation is general chat territory isn't it?

You know what’s definitely not on topic?







Discussing whether the thread is on topic.

kombatwombat wrote:
You know what’s definitely not on topic?







Discussing whether the thread is on topic.

Unless there are specific rules for going off topic in the Vigilus campaign book. I've been through the video twice now and can't seem to find any.

I just was thinking on the Indomitus Veterans Stratagem. It should be +1 Attack and +1 Ld right? That is actually pretty decent if it affects all Intercessors in a detachment. Ld 9 MSU Squads are basically immune to morale then.

Allegedly there might be a Space Wolves Stratagem as well, so it makes me wonder if they will be able to use Indomitus Veterans.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I just was thinking on the Indomitus Veterans Stratagem. It should be +1 Attack and +1 Ld right? That is actually pretty decent if it affects all Intercessors in a detachment. Ld 9 MSU Squads are basically immune to morale then.

Allegedly there might be a Space Wolves Stratagem as well, so it makes me wonder if they will be able to use Indomitus Veterans.

Ultramarines already have the +1Ld already, and frankly people either just remove MSU marines unit by unit usually with wounds to spare or Ld isn't going to be a major issue.

The +1A is much more interesting intercessors with 3A each though might finally be able to do something in CC finally also makes that powersword on the sargent so worth while.

Some people have said that formation is just intercessors others have said it's all primaris infantry. +1A to new Guilliman could certainly be interesting.

Not like marines have a mountain of useful strategums to use CP on either.

Ice_can wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I just was thinking on the Indomitus Veterans Stratagem. It should be +1 Attack and +1 Ld right? That is actually pretty decent if it affects all Intercessors in a detachment. Ld 9 MSU Squads are basically immune to morale then.

Allegedly there might be a Space Wolves Stratagem as well, so it makes me wonder if they will be able to use Indomitus Veterans.

Ultramarines already have the +1Ld already, and frankly people either just remove MSU marines unit by unit usually with wounds to spare or Ld isn't going to be a major issue.

The +1A is much more interesting intercessors with 3A each though might finally be able to do something in CC finally also makes that powersword on the sargent so worth while.

Some people have said that formation is just intercessors others have said it's all primaris infantry. +1A to new Guilliman could certainly be interesting.

Not like marines have a mountain of useful strategums to use CP on either.

Well, I know I am going to be surrounding Pedro Kantor with Intercessors with a Power Fist Sergeant. 4 Attack Intercessors and a 5 Attack Power Fist Sergeant, rerolling all misses? That is going to be nuts. Especially when I put three MSU Squads of Intercessors, not just one.

Are you sure indomitus veterans means “veteran statline” and not just “veterans of the indomitus campaign with a rule added to reflect that”?

I’ll start a thread in the proposed rules forum asap, but I’ll say it here too; I think one way to fix soup is to take the current system and put it into reverse. Make it go backwards. Instead of starting with 3 CPs and gaining more for adding detachments (which leads to the abuse), start with 9, 10, 12 or whatever CPs and lose them as you add detachments. A brigade loses you no CPs...a battalion loses you only 1...patrols only lose you 2...but the others lose you 3 or more. I haven’t worked out the finer details, but the aim is to put the breaks on soup lists and reward you for going as mono build as you can, whilst still allowing you to make soup if you want.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I’ll start a thread in the proposed rules forum asap, but I’ll say it here too; I think one way to fix soup is to take the current system and put it into reverse. Make it go backwards. Instead of starting with 3 CPs and gaining more for adding detachments (which leads to the abuse), start with 9, 10, 12 or whatever CPs and lose them as you add detachments. A brigade loses you no CPs...a battalion loses you only 1...patrols only lose you 2...but the others lose you 3 or more. I haven’t worked out the finer details, but the aim is to put the breaks on soup lists and reward you for going as mono build as you can, whilst still allowing you to make soup if you want.

Needs a way to scale with army size- 10cp at 500pts is a lot more effective than at 3000pts.

Maybe the number of CP needs to be tied to points level? Something like 5CP minimum, and an additional 5cp for every 500pts after the first 500 (rounding down). Maybe 15CP at 1500pts is too much though. Does make the games more tactically complex I suppose.

I guess my fluffy army of Relictors is done since they can’t have allied inquisitors (radical).

The new Vigilus short story on Warhammer Community has Reivers riding in a Valkyrie. Can’t put them in a Rhino, though!

Erren wrote:
The new Vigilus short story on Warhammer Community has Reivers riding in a Valkyrie. Can’t put them in a Rhino, though!

To be fair they reference that in the story (since the Black Legion turned up there has been a blurring of Imperial forces as the rush to respond)
I actually came here to see if there were any rumors that this would be a game affecting change from one of the new books (blanket change in Chapter Approved, Formation rule from Vigilus campaign book or City Fight stratagem)

I can't imagine they would write something deliberately referencing a common point of mockery about the game. I mean that's the whole point of the story, Guard and Marines interacting in a way that wasn't allowed before...then again this is GW...

Future War Cultist wrote:I’ll start a thread in the proposed rules forum asap, but I’ll say it here too; I think one way to fix soup is to take the current system and put it into reverse. Make it go backwards. Instead of starting with 3 CPs and gaining more for adding detachments (which leads to the abuse), start with 9, 10, 12 or whatever CPs and lose them as you add detachments. A brigade loses you no CPs...a battalion loses you only 1...patrols only lose you 2...but the others lose you 3 or more. I haven’t worked out the finer details, but the aim is to put the breaks on soup lists and reward you for going as mono build as you can, whilst still allowing you to make soup if you want.

I can get behind this. it (to me) makes sense everybody starts out with the same amount of CP's and you spend them to allow/change/bonus detachments

Erren wrote:The new Vigilus short story on Warhammer Community has Reivers riding in a Valkyrie. Can’t put them in a Rhino, though!

So this means valkyries for everyone, DA you get a valkyrie, Ultras you get a valkyrie....

I think you lot are perhaps reading too much into a short story about the Imperium doing whatever it can to stop the encroaching tide.

Unless the story is an elaborate teaser of an upcoming stratagem involving Reivers, a Valkyrie and the ability to dismount, wreck something and remount the circling Valkyrie in one fell swoop.

It would be easy enough to have a "desperate times" rule or stratagem that applies to the Vigilus campaign.

 BrookM wrote:
I think you lot are perhaps reading too much into a short story about the Imperium doing whatever it can to stop the encroaching tide.

Unless the story is an elaborate teaser of an upcoming stratagem involving Reivers, a Valkyrie and the ability to dismount, wreck something and remount the circling Valkyrie in one fell swoop.

Or it's an example of what the Reivers deploy from normally, using their Grav-Chutes...since it just says they deploy offboard and arrive later.

 BrookM wrote:
I think you lot are perhaps reading too much into a short story about the Imperium doing whatever it can to stop the encroaching tide.

It's funny because I shot a message off to my wife about the scuttle butt I figured that would generate off the first couple paragraphs, then they got me by giving the reivers demolition charges a week after I was lamenting them not having melta bombs. I doubt any of this really has weight in what's going to happen, but man what a tease. Give the saboteurs the big bombs dangit!