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 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 drazz wrote:
My theory here:

Formations are coming and are going to give big bonuses. They will likely cost CP.

GW just said they want to get out of soup by offering bonuses to non-soup, rather than penalize soup lists and players.

(Guess) Formations will give their bonuses at a reduced cost for armies that are battle-forged and have no soup.

The formations costing CP was confirmed by people present at the event.

The refusal to penalize soup lists is infuriatingly confusing at this point though.

Not really. What the Balance Brigade have to grasp is that Soup is not an accident. Neither was Allies. GW want people crafting armies out of units from multiple factions, because it lets them make fluffy lists and - probably more importantly - increases the chance that people will keep buying stuff.

Once you accept the basic fact that GW want Soup to be as viable as any other option, and that interfering sufficiently with Soup to make it equivalent to or less powerful than monofaction armies would also likely wreck the entire point of Soup, layering on another mechanism to boost monofaction stuff instead isn't even remotely confusing, it's the most logical response given GW's position.

gak, just be glad it's not a few years ago, they wouldn't even be trying to level the playing field.

Except by using CP as the base for the formation benifits, it still make it another incentive to soup for cheap CP.

At no point is GW going to hand out a big enough bonus to make not soupibg in cheap CP just the defacto more competitive option.

Additionally the firced mono codex of Necrons and Tau have already pretty much been confirmed to be not getting formations so please explain how that helps mono vrs soup balance?

 Cephalobeard wrote:

It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

"Intentional and fluffy" would be requiring you to use an "Auxiliary Detachment", not being able to bring an 'auxiliary' detachment that's larger than your original faction's.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 drazz wrote:
My theory here:

Formations are coming and are going to give big bonuses. They will likely cost CP.

GW just said they want to get out of soup by offering bonuses to non-soup, rather than penalize soup lists and players.

(Guess) Formations will give their bonuses at a reduced cost for armies that are battle-forged and have no soup.

The formations costing CP was confirmed by people present at the event.

The refusal to penalize soup lists is infuriatingly confusing at this point though.

We have had some rumors about CP being limited to detachment. That would nerf soup pretty drastically.

Ice_can wrote:


Additionally the firced mono codex of Necrons and Tau have already pretty much been confirmed to be not getting formations so please explain how that helps mono vrs soup balance?

Where was that?

Necrons and Tau aren't in Vigilus Defiant, the campaign book with narrative scenarios and additional rules for some armies (e.g. new Calgar, Haarken Worldclaimer).

Necrons and Tau are in Urban Conquest, the boxed set with narrative map-based campaigns and specialist detachments - at least as far as anyone knows. Tau are even front and center in the promo pic for Urban Conquest on the Warhammer Community site.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Not really. What the Balance Brigade have to grasp is that Soup is not an accident. Neither was Allies. GW want people crafting armies out of units from multiple factions, because it lets them make fluffy lists and - probably more importantly - increases the chance that people will keep buying stuff.

Once you accept the basic fact that GW want Soup to be as viable as any other option, and that interfering sufficiently with Soup to make it equivalent to or less powerful than monofaction armies would also likely wreck the entire point of Soup, layering on another mechanism to boost monofaction stuff instead isn't even remotely confusing, it's the most logical response given GW's position.

The problem is that there isn't "any other option" for some armies. And the soup issue will continually impact those armies chosen to fill holes in the soup lists, not the players that abuse the soup lists.

gak, just be glad it's not a few years ago, they wouldn't even be trying to level the playing field.

They still aren't. It's been noted multiple times that there are a ton of different ways that could be utilized to neuter soup without affecting the base factions but then the Soup Chefs always show up to shout about how it hurts their "fluffy" list of a Custodes jetbike list or a single Castellan and a Slamguinius if the Guard don't give you CPs...and how it's the Guard's fault that their units are so cheap compared to yours.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

"Intentional and fluffy" would be requiring you to use an "Auxiliary Detachment", not being able to bring an 'auxiliary' detachment that's larger than your original faction's.

Soup =/= Auxilary detachments.

I will agree with you that an allied Knight Valiant or something in a single detachment should likely not be a thing, and in my opinion should certainly not have access to stratagems or command points, but that is completely different from someone using Guard, Marines, and whatever other flavor of soup they want to add to their armies.

Allies are intentional.

It's part of the game, its been there for over a year, everything they do continues to support that.

I feel pretty confident that these formation bonuses will require you to have a mono faction, more or less removing the benefit of mixing armies. At least that's what I'd do.

Want all these things from different armies? Forfeit your bonuses. Simple.

But depending on these bonuses they may not be good enough to sway people over to mono factions

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

"Intentional and fluffy" would be requiring you to use an "Auxiliary Detachment", not being able to bring an 'auxiliary' detachment that's larger than your original faction's.

Soup =/= Auxilary detachments.

That's your opinion. There's a reason I put 'auxiliary' like I did--the role they're playing when it's the common Soup Chef lists?
Guard are there to provide CPs and bodies, a kitted out Marine HQ and Knights are there to do the heavy lifting.

They're functioning in an auxiliary role to the 'main' army. Or are you going to try to argue that all of a sudden Guard players needed Slamguinius and a Knight Castellan to be effective? With how broken people crow the Guard book is, I'd be surprised if that were the case!

I will agree with you that an allied Knight Valiant or something in a single detachment should likely not be a thing, and in my opinion should certainly not have access to stratagems or command points, but that is completely different from someone using Guard, Marines, and whatever other flavor of soup they want to add to their armies.

Let's stop pretending that it's strictly "fluff" for the majority of these ridiculous lists. It's effectiveness driving it, fluff is secondary.

Allies are intentional.

It's part of the game, its been there for over a year, everything they do continues to support that.

Allies are intentional and part of the game and so were the "Auxiliary Support Detachments". You know, the things where you sacrifice a CP and get a single unit?

That's where "Allies" would be coming into play. Not with you taking a Brigade of Guardsmen, a Patrol or Battalion of Blood Angels, and a single Knight Castellan.

I quite like formations, I like the flavour that some of them added, they worked fine before as well before they started giving free transports away !

 Rayvon wrote:
I quite like formations, I like the flavour that some of them added, they worked fine before as well before they started giving free transports away !

Yeah, I think the main danger is in putting free units on the table, making army x with detachment y inherently worth more points than others for the same cost.

 Asmodai wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Additionally the firced mono codex of Necrons and Tau have already pretty much been confirmed to be not getting formations so please explain how that helps mono vrs soup balance?

Where was that?

Necrons and Tau aren't in Vigilus Defiant, the campaign book with narrative scenarios and additional rules for some armies (e.g. new Calgar, Haarken Worldclaimer).

Necrons and Tau are in Urban Conquest, the boxed set with narrative map-based campaigns and specialist detachments - at least as far as anyone knows. Tau are even front and center in the promo pic for Urban Conquest on the Warhammer Community site.

That's good news, I was going on the reports I had seen from the vigilusnweekender which made it sounds like the formations where in the vigilous defient book which is only about factions on vigilous.
Maybe I'm just too used to GW ignoring Xeno's factions infavour of choas and imperium.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 drazz wrote:
My theory here:

Formations are coming and are going to give big bonuses. They will likely cost CP.

GW just said they want to get out of soup by offering bonuses to non-soup, rather than penalize soup lists and players.

(Guess) Formations will give their bonuses at a reduced cost for armies that are battle-forged and have no soup.

The formations costing CP was confirmed by people present at the event.

The refusal to penalize soup lists is infuriatingly confusing at this point though.

It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

PErsonal reason being generally game balance. As long as soup exists game is impossible to balance.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

"Intentional and fluffy" would be requiring you to use an "Auxiliary Detachment", not being able to bring an 'auxiliary' detachment that's larger than your original faction's.

Soup =/= Auxilary detachments.

That's your opinion. There's a reason I put 'auxiliary' like I did--the role they're playing when it's the common Soup Chef lists?
Guard are there to provide CPs and bodies, a kitted out Marine HQ and Knights are there to do the heavy lifting.

They're functioning in an auxiliary role to the 'main' army. Or are you going to try to argue that all of a sudden Guard players needed Slamguinius and a Knight Castellan to be effective? With how broken people crow the Guard book is, I'd be surprised if that were the case!

I will agree with you that an allied Knight Valiant or something in a single detachment should likely not be a thing, and in my opinion should certainly not have access to stratagems or command points, but that is completely different from someone using Guard, Marines, and whatever other flavor of soup they want to add to their armies.

Let's stop pretending that it's strictly "fluff" for the majority of these ridiculous lists. It's effectiveness driving it, fluff is secondary.

Allies are intentional.

It's part of the game, its been there for over a year, everything they do continues to support that.

Allies are intentional and part of the game and so were the "Auxiliary Support Detachments". You know, the things where you sacrifice a CP and get a single unit?

That's where "Allies" would be coming into play. Not with you taking a Brigade of Guardsmen, a Patrol or Battalion of Blood Angels, and a single Knight Castellan.

ASD are for when a single unit, eg an assassin, joins your force. Having a brigade of infantry working with a space marine chapter makes perfect sense. The Knight is literally in an Auxiliary detachment in your example. It's just that it's a superheavy.

You can dislike the ally system all you want from a balance PoV, I get that. But from a fluff PoV it makes perfect sense in most cases. Heck, you SHOULDN'T play tank and infantry Guard of the same regimental tactic, for example. They're Tank Regiments and Infantry Regiments and so on, and they're usually from different worlds even if they're currently fighting one the same one.

And why wouldn't Khorne Daemons and World eaters get along? Why wouldn't Sisters of Battle work together with Inquisitors?

I am very excited for these new "formations?" "Rites of War?" Whatever they are. I suspected that this time around GW was going to take their time and try to balance stuff out a lot more. Using command points on these is really the way to go! I'm also really excited for the planetary campaigns!

But most of all, not a single model they showed made me sad. They are all fantastic! I'm really excited to see what-else is coming, but I'm willing to hazard that guess that if the Plastic Oblits are real, they'll be in this box with that named BL character.

nekooni wrote:

ASD are for when a single unit, eg an assassin, joins your force.

Realistically, it's for any "single unit that isn't your main army" joins your force. That's why there wasn't any real limitation as to how many you could take or of what, barring that you lost a Command Point for every Auxiliary slot you took.

Having a brigade of infantry working with a space marine chapter makes perfect sense.

But that's not what happens here. What happens here is the "primary force" of Space Marines effectively is outnumbered by the "auxiliary force" with the whole purpose being that the Marines get Command Points fed into their Slamguinius that he wouldn't have access to otherwise thanks to the Guard having an abundance of Command Points and very few Stratagems to actually bother spending them on.

And I'll note, again, that the "brigade" in this sense is a specific Detachment. Your example of a "space marine chapter" can be literally anything.

What needs to happen at this point is the removal of people to take anything larger than a Patrol, Vanguard, Outrider, or Spearhead outside of their faction--and really there needs to be a limitation that they can't take named characters in those "auxiliary" detachments as well.

The Knight is literally in an Auxiliary detachment in your example. It's just that it's a superheavy.

Auxiliary Superheavy Detachments are an exception to the rule seeing as how they don't remove a Command Point and Lord of War choices aren't available outside of the Superheavy Detachment that is mandatory of 3, Supreme Command Detachment, or the Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment.

Christ, you can take Flyers easier than you can LoWs.

You can dislike the ally system all you want from a balance PoV, I get that. But from a fluff PoV it makes perfect sense in most cases. Heck, you SHOULDN'T play tank and infantry Guard of the same regimental tactic, for example. They're Tank Regiments and Infantry Regiments and so on, and they're usually from different worlds even if they're currently fighting one the same one.

There's more fluff for "tank and infantry guard of the same homeworld" being in the same theater than there is for Blood Angels sending a Captain and a bunch of Scouts, a Knightly House showing up with a Castellan, and a bunch of Straken's Catachans with Manticores and Mortars being in the same spot over and over again.

Not the least of which is that regiments would be raised at the same time, allowing for them to be sent to the same warzone and retaining their same command elements.

And why wouldn't Khorne Daemons and World eaters get along?

Not my problem.

Why wouldn't Sisters of Battle work together with Inquisitors?

Sisters of Battle with an Inquisitor is easily done using an Auxiliary Support Detachment by the way.

Ice_can wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Additionally the firced mono codex of Necrons and Tau have already pretty much been confirmed to be not getting formations so please explain how that helps mono vrs soup balance?

Where was that?

Necrons and Tau aren't in Vigilus Defiant, the campaign book with narrative scenarios and additional rules for some armies (e.g. new Calgar, Haarken Worldclaimer).

Necrons and Tau are in Urban Conquest, the boxed set with narrative map-based campaigns and specialist detachments - at least as far as anyone knows. Tau are even front and center in the promo pic for Urban Conquest on the Warhammer Community site.

That's good news, I was going on the reports I had seen from the vigilusnweekender which made it sounds like the formations where in the vigilous defient book which is only about factions on vigilous.
Maybe I'm just too used to GW ignoring Xeno's factions infavour of choas and imperium.

It is. Whats so hard to figure out about campaign books only giving things for armies that are featured in that campaign?

I'd be more worried about the idea that Vigilius is going to be here for a long time, because that does suggest that the same few factions are going to be getting repeated updates for an extended peried of time, which is absolutely a bad thing.

Soup would be less of an issue of the Force Org Charge actually meant something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

Yeah. When people bring three Custodes HQs and no other Custodes units in their Guard/Blood Angel/Knight army. That's real fluffy.

Soup would be fine if units were actually balanced and CP were not tied to filling detachments with cheap chaff.

It's not that stupid. Marines are well reported in the fluff to send out individual marines on missions or as advisors to other forces. Given the extremely limited number of Custodes out there it's not that foolish for them to be parcelled out in small numbers to specific flashpoints. Also there is lots of precedence for rag tag groups of survivors from different formations grouped together for a desperate action or last stand.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Soup would be less of an issue of the Force Org Charge actually meant something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

Yeah. When people bring three Custodes HQs and no other Custodes units in their Guard/Blood Angel/Knight army. That's real fluffy.

Shhh...Shhh... Power gaming is just people playing a fluffy army. Mind you, it is only fluffy to THEM, but it is still fluffy. Right? RIGHT?!

Soup needs to go. The best course of action would be for the CP generated by a detachment to be only available to that detachment.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Soup would be less of an issue of the Force Org Charge actually meant something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

Yeah. When people bring three Custodes HQs and no other Custodes units in their Guard/Blood Angel/Knight army. That's real fluffy.

Shhh...Shhh... Power gaming is just people playing a fluffy army. Mind you, it is only fluffy to THEM, but it is still fluffy. Right? RIGHT?!

Soup needs to go. The best course of action would be for the CP generated by a detachment to be only available to that detachment.

My admech and knights is very fluffy while being strong, thank you for noticing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Soup would be less of an issue of the Force Org Charge actually meant something.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's almost like it's intentional and fluffy, despite people not liking it for personal reasons.

Yeah. When people bring three Custodes HQs and no other Custodes units in their Guard/Blood Angel/Knight army. That's real fluffy.

To be honet it does seem kind of fluffy to me- The Cutodes are as a group the best trained group of military minds in the Imperium, and always have been. There is also an established precedent for them going out to do missions solo or in pairs or small groups, an certainly to fulfill the function of being the eyes, ears, and voice of the emperor when needed.

It's not big jump to think that in thier new proactive era that if they couldn't be there in force they would just take over command.

As I said, soup would not be a problem is the Force Org Chart had any meaning in 8th.

Once upon a time the FOC was a limiter. You couldn't bring whatever you wanted because you were restricted to certain slots. With the current system you can just take whatever formation gives you the slots you want, and ignore the rest. There's no restriction, and no real penalty for just taking what you want. And if you run out of slots... take a new FOC on top of that! It's no better than Formations from 7th, except without all the free transports/ugprades.

The cynic in my knows that this was done because FOC = limits on what minis people can buy. It's the reason we don't see 0-1 choices these day outside of Special Characters and maybe a few others. Limitations = no mini sale.

Soup is allowed to exist because it sells miniatures, not because of any thematic or balance reasons.

I like the concept of allies, but right now the game is almost "Bring whatever you want!", which isn't the same thing.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
To be honet it does seem kind of fluffy to me- The Cutodes are as a group the best trained group of military minds in the Imperium, and always have been. There is also an established precedent for them going out to do missions solo or in pairs or small groups, an certainly to fulfill the function of being the eyes, ears, and voice of the emperor when needed.

It's not big jump to think that in thier new proactive era that if they couldn't be there in force they would just take over command.

Sending out small groups of Custodes, sure. Like a squad. Or a leader and his retinue.

Not three top-ranking HQs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
To be honet it does seem kind of fluffy to me- The Cutodes are as a group the best trained group of military minds in the Imperium, and always have been. There is also an established precedent for them going out to do missions solo or in pairs or small groups, an certainly to fulfill the function of being the eyes, ears, and voice of the emperor when needed.

It's not big jump to think that in thier new proactive era that if they couldn't be there in force they would just take over command.

Sending out small groups of Custodes, sure. Like a squad. Or a leader and his retinue.

Not three top-ranking HQs.

Fluff-wise, 'Shield-Captain' isn't an official rank and is more a signification that you can lead a group (not necessarily are) and that you're super awesome even among the super awesome. Lexicanum specifically states it's not uncommon to see one Shield-Captain leading other Shield-Captains. " It is not uncommon to see a multiple Shield-Captains in battle, nor is it for one to command others - groupings such as the Golden Brothers or the Heralds Three have won remarkable renown through their impressive accomplishments. This does not result in any tension, for the Shield-Captains are frank in discussing their respective merits and quick to recognize their own strengths and weaknesses".

I mean, all of this complaining about soup but... I've never seen anyone actually bring the lists that people complain about to a local shop. I've seen Knights, I've seen Custodes, I've seen Blood Angels, and I've seen Guard, but seldom in lists together.

I think this is a complaint for tournament players, and if you're going to big events where you're fighting against the tournament meta, then either beat it or join it. That's what you do.

drbored wrote:
I mean, all of this complaining about soup but... I've never seen anyone actually bring the lists that people complain about to a local shop. I've seen Knights, I've seen Custodes, I've seen Blood Angels, and I've seen Guard, but seldom in lists together.

I think this is a complaint for tournament players, and if you're going to big events where you're fighting against the tournament meta, then either beat it or join it. That's what you do.

You may not, but I've seen it plenty in pick up games and small time tournaments (6-20 players) in my area. Generally it's people practicing for Adepticon or some such. But they're running around in the wild, it's not just a big tourney issue.

Audustum wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
To be honet it does seem kind of fluffy to me- The Cutodes are as a group the best trained group of military minds in the Imperium, and always have been. There is also an established precedent for them going out to do missions solo or in pairs or small groups, an certainly to fulfill the function of being the eyes, ears, and voice of the emperor when needed.

It's not big jump to think that in thier new proactive era that if they couldn't be there in force they would just take over command.

Sending out small groups of Custodes, sure. Like a squad. Or a leader and his retinue.

Not three top-ranking HQs.

Fluff-wise, 'Shield-Captain' isn't an official rank and is more a signification that you can lead a group (not necessarily are) and that you're super awesome even among the super awesome. Lexicanum specifically states it's not uncommon to see one Shield-Captain leading other Shield-Captains. " It is not uncommon to see a multiple Shield-Captains in battle, nor is it for one to command others - groupings such as the Golden Brothers or the Heralds Three have won remarkable renown through their impressive accomplishments. This does not result in any tension, for the Shield-Captains are frank in discussing their respective merits and quick to recognize their own strengths and weaknesses".

No, no. Don't go letting them know Shield Captains aren't Chapter masters. They're gonna be very mad to find out that Custodes leave Terra, and even in master of mankind team up with, quite specifically, a jump pack blood angel while fighting alongside imperial guard.

We're filthy powergamer waac lepers and should be shunned.

Also, unironically complaining about shield captains after everyone has their codex? Hilarious, Custodes aren't bullying anyone at this point.

Edit:

Before we push the goal post and say that "That fight doesn't count", or "That's just one example" or something along those lines, let me be very clear.

I'm not the one who cares how people use their dolls. You play your army however you damn well please, and I will never, ever apply a pejorative to you for choosing to do so.

However if your goal is to say these people or their armies don't count, or try and pretend they're the ones ruinng fun when you're quite literally gatekeeping and posturing your toxic attitude, just know the argument isn't based in reality.

I don’t think anyone seriously wants Soup to be banned. It’s against what us grognards from earlier editions believe the game should be, but we have to recognise that’s the way the wind is blowing now.

No, what the Balance Brigade really want is for Soup to be an option, not the only option if you want to be even mildly competitive. I have been championing a solution to balance the strengths of Soup with a downside since the start of the Edition, but now that GW have said they don’t want to penalise armies only reward them, that idea’s dead in the water.

What we really want is a bonus for Pure armies that is genuinely good enough to create a real choice between going Soup or Pure.

I'm a big fan of giving mono-list armies 6CP to start instead of the usually 3.

kombatwombat wrote:
I don’t think anyone seriously wants Soup to be banned. It’s against what us grognards from earlier editions believe the game should be, but we have to recognise that’s the way the wind is blowing now.

No, what the Balance Brigade really want is for Soup to be an option, not the only option if you want to be even mildly competitive. I have been championing a solution to balance the strengths of Soup with a downside since the start of the Edition, but now that GW have said they don’t want to penalise armies only reward them, that idea’s dead in the water.

What we really want is a bonus for Pure armies that is genuinely good enough to create a real choice between going Soup or Pure.

Exactly this. I don't dislike Soup, per se, I dislike that it has become the absolute norm now. And there really isn't a great way for mono-armies to compete with it. Why would I invest points on another Battalion of Space Marines when I can run a Guard Brigade for that price and have a ton more CP to throw around with my heavy hitter units.

And I agree that mono-armies need a bonus of some sort. Perhaps they should be the only armies that get the 3CP for being Battleforged. It isn't like the Soup armies are generally hurting for CP. For the most part, there isn't much for synergy between the armies(there are definitely cases of synergy though). People are doing this for CP, for the most part. Or, perhaps if your entire army is composed of one codex, you get one of those fancy Formations for free. Or maybe Formations should be exclusive to mono-armies. I dunno, just spit-balling.