Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines

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**Astmeister**

From Lagrath on Bolter & Chainsword

Edit: Sorry already got posted apparently.

**topaxygouroun i**

How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.

**JSG**

WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?

Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.

Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.

In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.

**GrinNfool**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.

**Banville**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If we can ever grow the size of eliminators and suppressors beyond three I can see some really solid synergy with the new powers. Giving a unit full rerolls to hit alongside never being targeted would be really good. Their offensive powers are also pretty good with being able to reliably slap two mortal wounds on a character up to 18" away. Stack on that of that the new snipers, assassins and captain there is a lot of character hate on the table for primaris marines.

I think the libby will be really solid on his own merits even without a lot of phobos units around.

I didn't think Suppressors had the Phobos keyword?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GrinNfool wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.

I also don't think it's that strange. They're drop troops with autocannon. Hardly the sneakiest loadouts you can get.

The issue with - 1 to hit shenanigans is they stack easily with Ravenguard. Not fun to play against.

**Irbis**

BrianDavion wrote:
Virules wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Virules wrote:
However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).

He also has unrivaled access to published and unpublished background material directly from the people who have determined the entire setting. Not to mention that his books are referenced as core canon more and more frequently by GW.

And Abaddon being the "spitting image of Horus" to the point where people thought he was a clone has LOOOONG been a part of the lore

Pity no one gave the memo to sculptor of 30K Abby. Put him next to Horus and tell me with a straight face they are similar.

Or you know, the guy who wrote Gathering Storm. Particularly the scene where standing Celestine stabs Armless in the back on chest level, which only makes sense if he is terminator sized. If he was primarch sized, he would be stabbed by her in more ways than obvious one

**Vector Strike**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.

I'd say we could take Dark Imperium as a base to compare.
Inceptors came in a unit of 3 in the box; their codex version can go up to 6.
Hellblasters and Intercessors came in units of 5 each in the box; their codex version can go up to 10 each.

That means I'd bet on Supressors going up to 6 max, as Eliminators; Infiltrators up to 10 (but they already do that in the box anyway)

**EonChao**

JSG wrote:

Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.

As I actually have my 2nd ed books out I can confirm:

Codex Chaos 2nd edition page 98:
He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation.

**insaniak**

GrinNfool wrote:

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.

It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.

**Haighus**

insaniak wrote:
GrinNfool wrote:

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.

Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...

**MajorWesJanson**

Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.

**casvalremdeikun**

Well, we know for a fact Abaddon is not a straight clone of Horus as he was a Terran Marine prior to Horus even being found. But he is functionally a clone of him as he is one of, if not the oldest Space Marines alive, even taking warp-fethery into account. Pretty much all of Abaddon's body has been overwritten by Horus at this point.

**endlesswaltz123**

Haighus wrote:
insaniak wrote:
GrinNfool wrote:

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.

Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...

If this happens, deep strike in a big squad of reivers, have temporal corridor cast on them... The grenade launcher should then be in range to disrupt overwatch... Now just need a way to let the reivers charge after advancing...

It won't be that potent a unit but it would be fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, we know for a fact Abaddon is not a straight clone of Horus as he was a Terran Marine prior to Horus even being found. But he is functionally a clone of him as he is one of, if not the oldest Space Marines alive, even taking warp-fethery into account. Pretty much all of Abaddon's body has been overwritten by Horus at this point.

Well, as far as I am aware, we don't know when the emperor started making marines, he could have already started before the primarchs were dispersed by chaos, in which case abaddon could have had some extras that made him closer to a clone than the standard marine.

**Sunny Side Up**

Crimson wrote:
Abaddon being similar to Horus has always been part of his fluff; granted, it made more sense before Primarchs were these bizarre giant freaks they're today.

True. The whole thing going from "Primarchs being viewed as something akin to gods thanks to 10.000 years of propaganda" and all those accounts suddenly being literal is just jarring.

Primarchs being the genetic blueprint Marines are made from should be (and were) ... well ... Marines (and not even Primaris Marines). Primarchs should basically have a Tac Marine statline with a bit more LD and some snazzy gear.

Old school fluff, Horus had to step in to help the Emperor fight off an Ork and they both barely came out alive. Which makes sense. The Emperor, without psychics, is a human with probably a guardsman statline and Horus, well, he's a Marine.

**Irbis**

Haighus wrote:
insaniak wrote:
GrinNfool wrote:

Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.

Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...

Yeah, I hope Vanguard book has updated sheet for them too. Would solve so many of their issues at a stroke given even remotely competent writer.

Sadly, chances for that are close to zero...

EonChao wrote:
Codex Chaos 2nd edition page 98:
He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation.

It doesn't mention size though, just looks. Also, now that we know HH timeline, it simply doesn't make any sense, Abby was a (Cthonian born) marine long before EC were even really existed as a legion...

**Voss**

WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

I don't really agree. 'Failbaddon' was GW's poor storytelling, not anything related to the character.

Abaddon, if anything, is superior to Horus. He lacks the overly large flaws that made the primarch the ultimate vessel and slave to chaos. Abaddon has been there for the long game, not the easy desperation play.

While the current state of the setting is a little over the top, Abaddon as a master of chaos rather than another pawn is a far more interesting story. It allows for both successes and failures on a smaller scale that keeps the setting going, rather than ultimate victory for either side.

**WhiteDog**

JSG wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?

Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.

Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.

In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.

Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch.
As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.

Voss wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

I don't really agree. 'Failbaddon' was GW's poor storytelling, not anything related to the character.

Abaddon, if anything, is superior to Horus. He lacks the overly large flaws that made the primarch the ultimate vessel and slave to chaos. Abaddon has been there for the long game, not the easy desperation play.

While the current state of the setting is a little over the top, Abaddon as a master of chaos rather than another pawn is a far more interesting story. It allows for both successes and failures on a smaller scale that keeps the setting going, rather than ultimate victory for either side.

He was so superior he failed a dozen crusade never even approaching Terra, and couldn't let his papa die so he decided to give him to a random tribe of savages passing by...
The 2nd and 3rd ed codexes are full of prophecies and myth of the end of times, rhana dandra, wolf time and whatnot. Abaddon is never associated with that in the way that Horus was associated with the end of the imperium in 30K. Now granted I do not have chaos space marine codexes since I never played the army.
Well let's settle and say we all have our own appreciation of the fluff.

**JSG**

WhiteDog wrote:
JSG wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?

Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.

Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.

In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.

Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch.
As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.

No, that's what you are doing. You say so yourself. I'm putting aside a book because it contradicts everything else written about the character. Abnett isn't mr. 40k. He's a comic book writer that plays fast and loose with the 40k background. Sometimes this is great, like with his 30k SW and sometimes it's just wrong, as with Abaddon. This lore isn't documented history or created in a vacuum. Primarchs got a massive power boost and Abnett is a part timer that got the details of one character wrong. ADB's series about Abaddon says he's as big as Horus. Surely the guys own novels trump his cameos in the heresy.

**AduroT**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.

How mixed are the Chaos and Primaris stuff? Are they are seperate sprues for easy box splitting?

**topaxygouroun i**

We've seen the Phobos discipline. Any leaks on the chaos one? (Malefic).

**WhiteDog**

JSG wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
JSG wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.

Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?

Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.

Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.

In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.

Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch.
As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.

No, that's what you are doing. You say so yourself. I'm putting aside a book because it contradicts everything else written about the character. Abnett isn't mr. 40k. He's a comic book writer that plays fast and loose with the 40k background. Sometimes this is great, like with his 30k SW and sometimes it's just wrong, as with Abaddon. This lore isn't documented history or created in a vacuum. Primarchs got a massive power boost and Abnett is a part timer that got the details of one character wrong. ADB's series about Abaddon says he's as big as Horus. Surely the guys own novels trump his cameos in the heresy.

Are you denying the fact that there are member of all legion that heavily ressemble their primarch ? Or are you saying that only Abnett says that ?

**Latro_**

anyone else find it a bit odd there is an entire new set of psy powers the majority of which only effect a certain type of marines in Armour.

just seems a lot of bloat for a small subset of models. Feels out of place no?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I wouldn't worry about it.

Jes said in the Voxcast this isn't all the Phobos armour we'll be seeing.

And that is from just a mini-Codex. May be an attempt to prevent over shenanigans for the time being.

**MajorWesJanson**

AduroT wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.

How mixed are the Chaos and Primaris stuff? Are they are seperate sprues for easy box splitting?

Looks like 2 unique CSM sprues, 1 unique and 1 pair of duplicated SM sprues, and 3 clampack characters. No mixing of factions.

**Davor**

Latro_ wrote:
anyone at work today / not in the uk

https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/1029654/80-days-of-wait

What will this be? Where are we suppose to go to watch this? Can anyone please post a link?

**Kdash**

Davor wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
anyone at work today / not in the uk

https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/1029654/80-days-of-wait

What will this be? Where are we suppose to go to watch this? Can anyone please post a link?

I think it'll just be another post on warhammer community at 4pm GMT from what i have gathered.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

It'd better not be utterly jaw dropping. I've got a phone shift 4pm-5pm, so will need to be able to talk, and be coherent!

**Dudeface**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It'd better not be utterly jaw dropping. I've got a phone shift 4pm-5pm, so will need to be able to talk, and be coherent!

It'll be the model reveal for Abaddon as a guess, I'd love it to be "here's all the redesigned chaos stuff and a codex" but I can't see it.

**Davor**

Kdash wrote:
Davor wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
anyone at work today / not in the uk

https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/1029654/80-days-of-wait

What will this be? Where are we suppose to go to watch this? Can anyone please post a link?

I think it'll just be another post on warhammer community at 4pm GMT from what i have gathered.

Thank you very much. I thought it was going to be an unveiling through video or something like that at a live event.

**Tiberius501**

Where be the leaks for the new chaos discipline of powers? :C