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Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.

It's also worth noting that other units could get model & /or datasheet updates in future World Eater/Emperor's Children codexes that might trickle down to this codex.

I'm firmly in the wait and see camp for now.

 Togusa wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.

It's also worth noting that other units could get model & /or datasheet updates in future World Eater/Emperor's Children codexes that might trickle down to this codex.

I'm firmly in the wait and see camp for now.

And there's gonna be a FAQ for Shadowspear 2 weeks after its out, which is likely to contain any point adjustments to those models. And then the Big FAQ not too long after. The rules going into these previews and even in the codex reprint may be months old. The Big FAQ may codify the beta bolters rule, and then we may see other beta rules introduced. Beta Bolters already shows that GW is aware there are problems with marines.

So I'm not optimistic overall, but its not the end of the world if Vigilus 2 and CSM Codex v2 don't fix stuff.

I wonder if the next pre orders will follow the same pattern as the last one, ie, release two new models a week; a character and a unit, respectively.
We have the Discordant, the Apostle, the terminators, and havocs left to be released. And possibly the Chaos Sorcerer, though maybe that will get released at a future time, like in a Blackstone fortress expansion pack. Besides the backpack from awhile back, we never got teases of the sorcerer during the Daemon rumor engine, which is pretty odd.

On a side note, that Chaos space marine backpack with the skull peaking through the damaged primaris helmet it so awesome. Perfect for a LotD Primaris conversion

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.

a big change for CSMs would be giving them a chainsword, in addition to a bolt gun. it'd be a small change but be a big improvement in how the black legion trait WORKS

>Be a Dakkaite
>See a blurry tiny image of a model
>Immediately dismiss it
>Later
>Full images of model revealed
>People start getting the model in their hands
>Be that same Dakkaite
>"OMG THAT MODEL IS SO COOL"

This pattern. Holy crap guys.

I seriously think they released the Renegade preview early because of the negativity of the Iron Warriors and Night Lords previews. There's a lot of hate on the Facebook pages for this release, moreso than any other save maybe the 'Orktober' fiasco.

My thinking is that GW didn't want to change the Legion traits with the silly idea of "We don't want to change people's armies too much or invalidate anything that anyone already bought" (even though they do that on a weekly basis with new codexes and model releases) and so they kept the old Legion traits and gave us the Renegade Traits alongside them.

Look at it this way. With these Renegade Traits, Chaos Marines now has more Subfaction traits to pick from than ANY OTHER CODEX. More Warlord Traits, more Relics, the ENTIRE Vigilus Ablaze book is Chaos related, on top of getting new units, updated models for old units, and Abaddon and the Noctilith Shrine on top of all of that.

They are giving us two cakes. One cake is just kinda crappy, but instead of seeing the good cake, everyone is like, "HOW DARE GW GIVE US THIS CRAPPY CAKE!!!"

Even me. I'm in that boat. I'm not free of sin. But, I calmed down, I thought about it, and this was my conclusion.

There is another, better cake. And at the end of the day, if I want to paint my models as Night Lords but use the Crimson Slaughter rules for them, nobody is going to stop me from doing that. Nobody ever has, and they likely never will.

I'm gonna be really honest...I play chaos as a main force, have for 10 years, own probably 15-20k points worth and really care very little about the nuance differences between 'renegade chapters' and 'legions'. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fluff differences, the lore, but I really care almost nothing for the absolute need to have one particular element of CSM have huge specific domination over the others. CSM is CSM, and the whining over "I am so furious my particular flavor of CSM isn't as good as this other flavor" is kind if eye-rolling to me.

If you're married to only being a purist Iron Warriors player or never want to touch anything other than Black Legion then well...you're not really being competitive. The fluff stars will never perfectly align for you, someone will always have the best traits.

The Piratical 17 are an unequivocally good addition. It puts actual CSM bodies on the field from a classic chaos faction which has rarely been much seen. "I want to use actual CSM!!!" has been a battlecry for a long time. Now you can. Huron is spiffy too. And, further, they plug into whichever chaos brand you want and just make them better. So your world bearers got some sacrifices to the dark gods from their pirate allies or your Iron Warriors benefit from a treasure trove of extra munitions that Huron handed over from a recent raid.

This is a genuinely good and needed design; stop bellyaching about it.

drakerocket wrote:
I'm gonna be really honest...I play chaos as a main force, have for 10 years, own probably 15-20k points worth and really care very little about the nuance differences between 'renegade chapters' and 'legions'. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fluff differences, the lore, but I really care almost nothing for the absolute need to have one particular element of CSM have huge specific domination over the others. CSM is CSM, and the whining over "I am so furious my particular flavor of CSM isn't as good as this other flavor" is kind if eye-rolling to me.

If you're married to only being a purist Iron Warriors player or never want to touch anything other than Black Legion then well...you're not really being competitive. The fluff stars will never perfectly align for you, someone will always have the best traits.

The Piratical 17 are an unequivocally good addition. It puts actual CSM bodies on the field from a classic chaos faction which has rarely been much seen. "I want to use actual CSM!!!" has been a battlecry for a long time. Now you can. Huron is spiffy too. And, further, they plug into whichever chaos brand you want and just make them better. So your world bearers got some sacrifices to the dark gods from their pirate allies or your Iron Warriors benefit from a treasure trove of extra munitions that Huron handed over from a recent raid.

This is a genuinely good and needed design; stop bellyaching about it.

I agree. On top of this, Vigilus Ablaze is bringing all these detachments that ARE NOT locked to a specific legion. These previous are pointing at potential thematic ties, but they aren't shoehorning you into a particular legion. You can take a Host Raptorial in a The Purge army. Tie an enemy up in close combat, give them leadership debuffs, and then if they're still locked in next turn, shoot at them in the shooting phase to pile on the hurt.

BrianDavion wrote:a big change for CSMs would be giving them a chainsword, in addition to a bolt gun. it'd be a small change but be a big improvement in how the black legion trait WORKS

I am of the opinion that Boltgun, Bolt Pistol and Chainsword/combat knife should be standard issue for any space marine tactical or Chaos. I just feels right from them to have their primary weapon, sidearm and melee weapon.

drbored wrote:
This pattern. Holy crap guys.

Okay now that I have Shadowspear in my possession, you got me on the Infiltrators. I think the boot cuff on this is supposed to invoke a stylized a medieval leather boot with the top folded over like would expect rogues/rangers to have. At the same time, I still think Suppressors look silly on flight stands. I like what Crimson did with his, so I am going to try for something like that.

Legion tactics changing would make getting CSM 8.5 essential, which it clearly isnt. So no. I play CSM and even i am skipping that.

Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Legion tactics changing would make getting CSM 8.5 essential, which it clearly isnt. So no. I play CSM and even i am skipping that.

unless they put the revisions in vigilus ablaze, but aye I don't think we'll see changes

 AduroT wrote:
Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?

Yep, on Warhammer Community with the first "new Chaos stuff" post from a few days back.

 Elbows wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?

Yep, on Warhammer Community with the first "new Chaos stuff" post from a few days back.

Found it, just the chaos stuff then? Was hoping to find a pdf of the Primaris stuff.

Not sure, actually. I hadn't seen those...maybe in another article?

Looks like I've got to wait until LVO is over to find out about the 'Elites' expansion to Kill-Team in order to field the new stuff.

Kinda sad, you'd thing GW would at least be hurling new Chaos Space Marine rules updates with the new toys coming.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Looks like I've got to wait until LVO is over to find out about the 'Elites' expansion to Kill-Team in order to field the new stuff.

Kinda sad, you'd thing GW would at least be hurling new Chaos Space Marine rules updates with the new toys coming.

I'm assuming you mean Adepticon (LVO was over a month ago)?

I'm very curious whether there will be any updates to the datasheets from the main KT rulebook in the Elites expansion. With the new CSM kit, you'd at least expect them to receive more equipment options in KT...

 Insane Ivan wrote:
I'm assuming you mean Adepticon (LVO was over a month ago)?

Yeah, it's that one. One of those things that people go and do a tournament, GW shows off new toys, Spikey Bits goes bonkers and acts like GW is firing naked ladies of a cannon, and I wake up for a nap to look at the pictures of the models with blurred vision, shrug, and then roll over and go back to sleep.

Hey guys, that probably not new defiler picture, the mounting for the battle cannon doesn't have the big face around it, just the usual trim. Is that just part of the kit they never show off?

What Defiler pic?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What Defiler pic?

With the Word Bearers/Dark Apostle a page or two back. There's a Word Bearers Defiler that doesn't have the face in the middle, and it looks WAY better than the normal model with that alone (it's the same model I compared very very closely ) that it had some people thinking it was new.

Also, the main issue with this as a long time (1996) Chaos Player is:

1) Most people who play Chaos do so because they like the Traitor Legions; GW has always stated this from when they designed the 2nd edition codex and gave Marines the focus
2) The legion traits are mostly very lackluster, and many of us were hoping for improvements. Instead, the "v2" codex is basically a 2nd printing with nothing really changed. GW did the absolute laziest thing possible rather than actually address the issues.
3) Them giving renegades better traits than the legions is a slap in the face to Chaos players who want the story of the traitor legions
4) Red Corsairs being able to mimic the Loyal 32 in CP farming is doubling down on one of if not the worst mechanic in 8th edition, showing GW either doesn't understand or just doesn't care
5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.

That's why we are upset. The Renegade preview made me so mad that I had to take a break from work and go for a walk because I wanted to punch something (not even joking here 100% serious) because it felt like such an insult that they made the Renegades have better traits than the "real" legions and because I knew that people would just be going off on how who gives a gak, just take a red corsairs battalion becasue it's better and feth you if you want to play a single legion.

Wayniac wrote:


1) Most people who play Chaos do so because they like the Traitor Legions; GW has always stated this from when they designed the 2nd edition codex and gave Marines the focus
2) The legion traits are mostly very lackluster, and many of us were hoping for improvements. Instead, the "v2" codex is basically a 2nd printing with nothing really changed. GW did the absolute laziest thing possible rather than actually address the issues.
.

Um. No. Just no.

The Legions were always super boring and, for the most part, even Chaos Characters with Legion-Background were exiles shot on sight by their own Legion-brothers (e.g. Ahriman, Kharn, etc..)

One of the very few things 7th did vastly better than 8th was the Chaos fluff with things like Crimson Slaughter or the Khorne Daemonkin, moving the "Khorne Army" away from the bland, one-dimensional World Eaters towards a more religious cult army.

The weird retcon on Chaos into "Horus Heresy 2.0" with legion-focussed books in 8th is one of it's weakest points.

Wayniac wrote:

5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.

Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.

Word Bearers are the absolute worst sub-faction in CSM right now though, it's not really a fair comparison. Corsairs have just had a big new buff to take them to the top of the pile.

But I don't think it's very fair to pretend that AL, BL and to some extent WE don't have something to offer to a comp-CSM player. But if you want to play competitive with Chaos, Imperial or Eldar, that means soup... Nailed on fact in 8E. This new release means you can now soup in a very competitive CP farm to your chaos lists, and you do it using actual CSMs. Those are two big plusses from this preview. Those are good things for the faction.

You still have 1500pts to spend after your Renegade battalion, if you're trying to build CSM competitively, and lots of soup options.

And then, way over on the other side of the debate, there's playing for fluff. But that has very little right to be mixed in, as a poisonous ingredient, to discussions of competitive 40k... 'HOW DARE GW NOT MAKE WBs COMPETITIVE??' is not a useful addition to the debate. If you're dead set on playing one subsection to the exclusion of all else in your competitive games, then as you probably know, you have to squeeze the pips until they squeak - be merciless in your unit choice - in order to stand a fighting chance against an optimal soup list (played badly). Against a good player with optimal soup, you're in trouble. I mean, I myself run IFs in that way in local competitions, and I love em. My aim there is to finish with a winning record. But I wouldn't feel entitled to start shouting about how unfair it was that my yellow boys can't stand up against Eldar soup. It's just a category mistake in this edition.

I know this is all a bit hazardous, seeing how I'm responding to someone who literally feels the urge to punch the world because of a new sub-faction rule, but there it is. We mix fluff-maxing and crunch-maxing logics at our own peril.

 Crimson wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.

Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.

It's not shock, it's frustration and disappointment that it keeps happening so you keep feeling like you're being punished for not liking the best one.

I hear you, it can feel unfair. Fingers crossed you get something in Vigilus to help you enjoy the game again.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Hey guys, that probably not new defiler picture, the mounting for the battle cannon doesn't have the big face around it, just the usual trim. Is that just part of the kit they never show off?

The big face is an optional piece on the kit.

Regarding new datasheets, the new rotary cannon might just be added to the Heavy Weapon list and thus not require updated datasheets.

 Crimson wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.

Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.

I think part of it is because CSM and Marines were previously one of the very few armies to have something similar. Eldar too, with the old old Craftworlds expansion Codex.

So if someone has been collecting Legion ABC or Chapter XYZ for years, suddenly getting lumped with lack lustre 'bonuses' is going to feel irksome. Compare to Necron, Tau, GSC, Nids, Orks etc, all of whom got only new options. With no real constraint on paint schemes for years, is less of an issue for many.

Perception. I think that's what I'm getting at. If someone has played Word Bearers for yonks, because they really like the background, seeing them fielded 'Counts As' Red Corsairs? Opponents may accuse of ship-jumping etc. Which is an unfair judgement on the Word Bearer player.

My Night Lords are fairly evenly divided between Havocs and Raptors, with a smattering of other stuff, and I'm pretty pleased with what I've read so far of the Vigilus stuff.

That Crimson Slaughter trait is... sort of random. I mean, it's good but not at all what I expected. Not sure if I like it.