Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?

I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.

Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.

That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.

 krakjen wrote:
So how much do you think those Dark Disciples will cost?
Because I highly doubt they would be free..

They'll prob be something like 5pts a model, like most of the buff style "add ons"

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?

I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.

Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.

That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.

Considering the one new one we've seen makes a Dark Apostle hit as hard as the best melee HQ chaos has with the addition of a single relic, yeah, I think we can fairly assume they're going to be pretty good.

These new Priest rules are a big deal and very interesting, even assuming it replaced their existing Dark Zealotry aura. Since they are named the same thing, I bet they did. However it is true that in the current book, it's re-roll failed hits, and the new Prayer version is re-roll hit rolls. So that did improve slightly despite needing to roll to get it.

But this is still a MASSIVE improvement because 1) You get to do a prayer at the start of each battle round, so you get to have different buffs up on your opponents turn 2) you can bring multiple apostles to stack up different buffs.

Apostles are cheap, so bringing a couple to buff a lot of units could give some serious synergy. Of course it's all going to depend on what the other prayers are, and on if there are strats to know more prayers, cast more, etc. If there are any buffs to defense or shooting, then this is the most important change to chaos that we've seen so far.

The Daemonkin Ritualists detachment is also looking very attractive. Yet ANOTHER +1 str for possessed, and now also the +1 attack. That helps offset the random attacks of regular possessed. With this many buffs for them, and in the form of auras so you don't have to take 1 giant squad, we're looking at some serious killing potential. And Shepherd of the True Faith is most aimed at regular possessed because they have the most attacks to use with it. And since it's a specialist detachment warlord trait, it can be given by that strat we saw previewed in the Black Legion article.

This is all great stuff. (But I can't help but notice that it would have been so perfect for Word Bearers to get some sort of buff to prayers. What a waste.)

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
This is all great stuff. (But I can't help but notice that it would have been so perfect for Word Bearers to get some sort of buff to prayers. What a waste.)

Who knows, they might. We haven't actually seen the Word Bearers specialist detachment, could be focused around Dark Apostles and Cultists.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.

So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?

The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.

Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.

Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.

I mean, re-rolls also make rolls more reliable since you have more chances to get a good result. d6 is, naturally, swingier than 2d6 take highest. You don't really want to flood the game with modifiers because there's a hard cap on how good a positive modifier can be; if you think Guardsmen are better than Marines now, just imagine if both units were hitting on a 2+ because of stacking modifiers.

The example of roll 2 dice take the highest is statistically the same as a re-roll. In both instances you're rolling the same 2 dice, needing for one to exceed a particular value. IF you need to roll a 4+ to hit... rolling one dice you have 50% odds of success; if you get a re-roll you now have 75% odd of success. If you roll 2 dice and the highest needs to be 4+ to hit... you have 75% odds.

My point wasn't to insist on a particular course of action, it is that a series of die rolls have a particular percentage odds of a positive outcome; that those same odd can be arrived at in a variety of ways and that this is what GW effectively does with stats, modifiers, and re-rolls. However if a series of die rolls has a percentage odds of success, that series can be distilled to smaller number of rolls, or even a single one and have the same statistical possibility.

You could roll 2 dice take the highest, or roll one die than re-roll it, or you could roll a 4 sided dice and call it a success on all but a roll of one.

And like I said, this introduces its own batch of problems, but understanding the statistical reality you should start to realize you have a number of mechanics that effectively duplicate each other while slowing down the game. While there are advantages and disadvantages to different approaches when games can run long as a consequence of a greater number of re-rolls being added into the game its silly to ignore the root cause.

...Yes? I wasn't comparing roll 2 take the highest to re-rolling a single dice, because I am also aware they are mostly the same thing (except in the very specific circumstance of morale rolls) I was comparing it to rolling a single dice.

Honestly, the Apostle new rules is really good news for CSM - it's a new design space for buffs, and the army could really do with some, especially in defence and on the charge distance. There's a good chance we'll be seeing some significant powers, and the potential for more than one DA in an army: there's 10 powers in total to choose from, and the two we know about are both powerful.

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex

I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.

It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.

But for that one notable exception it would be spot-on. Just make it part of the Black Templars Chapter Tactics and make sure it's not a copy-paste of the Word Bearers' buff.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
But this is still a MASSIVE improvement because 1) You get to do a prayer at the start of each battle round, so you get to have different buffs up on your opponents turn 2) you can bring multiple apostles to stack up different buffs.

A battle round encompasses both player turns. This would not allow using different buffs on the opponents turn.

GaroRobe wrote:

Also, what is that one disciple carrying on his back? Its not a book. But I can't figure out.

Looks like he is carrying a podium bookshelf when the DA neees to put the good book down.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?

I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.

Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.

That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.

Considering the one new one we've seen makes a Dark Apostle hit as hard as the best melee HQ chaos has with the addition of a single relic, yeah, I think we can fairly assume they're going to be pretty good.

Which best melee hq chaos unit would it make him hit as hard as, assuming he rolled a 3

 Latro_ wrote:
Which best melee hq chaos unit would it make him hit as hard as, assuming he rolled a 3

A DA with the Black Mace is S7, AP-4, D2 with 7 attacks (plus a mortal wound ability).

A Daemon Prince with Malefic Talons is S7, AP-2, D2 with 7 attacks.

The Daemon Prince has psychic powers and moves faster of course, but also costs way more. I'm mostly hoping for a prayer that helps the DA move up the board, if we get one of those then using the Apostle as a combatant in his own right seems very viable.

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex

I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.

It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.

they don't no, but I'm more talking the prayer system which would be expanded on easily eneugh, give a chaplain multiple Litanies to choose from. disiples could simply be a chaos only thing, or an equivilant with I dunno, cherubs and servo skulls could be given. I just like the idea of Chaplains applying differant buffs dependant on the situation it increases their flexability and makes them useful to armies without an assault focus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?

Off the top of my head you have:

Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20

hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex

I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.

It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.

they don't no, but I'm more talking the prayer system which would be expanded on easily eneugh, give a chaplain multiple Litanies to choose from. disiples could simply be a chaos only thing, or an equivilant with I dunno, cherubs and servo skulls could be given. I just like the idea of Chaplains applying differant buffs dependant on the situation it increases their flexability and makes them useful to armies without an assault focus.

They'd probably just have loyalist chaplains always succeed without a roll.

Voss wrote:
I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.

It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.

They have chapter serfs, servo-etc.s, servitors (of gunner, support, and medical varieties at least), often de facto PDFs under them. There are absolutely tons of pics, IIRC esp 2nd-5th editions, that illustrate various cult helpers following around chapters, on and off the field.

While I should know better by now, it's still disappointing to see them buff one of the best traits in the book while leaving the worst trait in the game as is.

To me, the prayers mechanic is perfect. Because it turns the dark apostle from a model that you see absolutely never, ever, to one that you might see.

Every damn thing in this game gives a reroll aura. Dark apostles and Chaplains (which I hope to see get the same buff) never appear because they are just worse versions of Chaos Lords and Captains.

Now, if their prayers have some kind of actual effect, they could be pretty good. I'd certainly love to use my Primaris Chaplain rather than a lieutenant if I could.

Would have been nice. Heck even a marginal one: Reroll failed morale; in addition, World Bearer Characters may attempt to Summon in the same round as moving. Oh well, lots of other good stuff, moving on.

Best use is going to be renegades, forget word bearers and their awful trait.

 Kirasu wrote:
Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.

Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".

Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?

There's also power fists, so that would make Dark Zealotry works better with Terminators (if you're the type to give your terminators PFs, anyway)

Now if something could be done to make actual chaos space marines and terminators not suck we could get something going here. I'd love to start a chaos marine army, but I can't get pass the feel of how unmarine like they would feel compared to primaris space marines who are already not cutting edge, but better. You buy into this army of cutthroat murdering monster marines some of which are veterans of the long war with countless battles and kills to their record and they are still beyond pathetic in killing power and are only good for falling over and dying while providing extra CP for a few key power units to do all of the work.

I just can't buy into the feel and theme of this army when the core of it so limp fisted and I'm willing to bet the terminator portion won't be any better.

Great to see fluffy wordbearers get someting useful and fun.

Running possessed and apostles, trying to be glad about improved summoning, has been hard.

Not anything super competetive, yet bring some fun synnergy and options to your playstyle.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.

Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".

Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?

Welcome to the Dakkadakka echo chamber, where one person reads half of the news, misquotes it into their summary and rant, and everyone else just takes that as the gospel without actually reading the article.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?

Off the top of my head you have:

Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20

hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.

Not really a lot to be honest. I think there should be more modifiers for melee to be honest, but people already complain about shooting penalties so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, the FW dude from the Executioners Chapter has a negative modifier. We can add him.

I could see prayers being something IG orders with a chance to fail roll having potential. The prayers just need to be something worth doing to have players wanting to bring the Dark Apostle.

I could even see some prayer effects having a negative consequence (this is Chaos after all) such as taking a wound, regular or mortal, for especially powerful prayers.

This would definitely allow the Word Bearers to have something like a free re-roll on the prayer chant and/or special table of prayers only they have access to as a replacement or even supplement to their very lack luster legion trait.

I just don't see Games Workshop doing something like that given the amount of additional effort they have shown currently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?

Off the top of my head you have:

Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20

hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.

Not really a lot to be honest. I think there should be more modifiers for melee to be honest, but people already complain about shooting penalties so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, the FW dude from the Executioners Chapter has a negative modifier. We can add him.

Tau Stealthsuits.

Pretty cool, the apostle was already an auto-include in every melee heavy CSM list, now even more so. It will be interesting to see what the other prayers are. And best thing, I already have quite a number of nurgley friends to use as disciples...