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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.

The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.

There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.

Normally I agree with you, in the sense that the more fantastical the universe the more sense the mundane aspects have to make, as those are the things that tend to break SoD (as opposed to space wizards and daemon legions arriving from another dimension).

However, as I stated, armour, throughout our own history, has not only been a method of protecting oneself but also has been reflective of the styles of the time. Again, the codpiece example, it doesn't make any sense from a practicality standpoint. It serves no practical purpose and in fact could hamper the user in certain places. Yet, they did it anyway. Why? Because armour, like clothing today, was fashion, and thus reflected the attitudes and desires of the time it was created.

For that reason, "boob plate" and high-heels on power armour aren't enough to break SoD because it is completely reasonable to assume that these things could come into being if that was the style the makers (or the eventual user) wanted to make. Do you think armoured chest plates taht showed off nipples/abs were in any way practical? Of course not. But they were there to show strength. Just like idiotic giant impractical codpieces.

And that's before we get to the "boob-plate would make your armour weaker!" which is a fallacious argument to start with.

I don't disagree at all. My point is that there's no point in people who accept the idea that a fantastical world drawing on elements of our own history could have things in it that don't precisely match up with what can be shorthanded with the term "woke" arguing with people who see the fantastical nature of a world as giving no excuse for failing to live up to modern "woke"ness, each is operating in an entirely different rhetorical space to the other.

I look at a setting that evokes historical and religious tropes with lots of specific associations, and I assume that if it doesn't specifically lay out some difference to those tropes then the fictional factions and places that evoke them conform to them. The guy who runs the MTG setting exemplifies the other mindset, in that he takes it as read that if a setting is fantastical then it doesn't include things like patriarchy or homophobia, regardless of what the tropes it draws upon might suggest to people.

Now I could sit there and argue till I'm blue in the face that using such tropes if you don't intend for them to actually hold any meaning is moronic, or that if you want to include tropes and themes but also negate some elements of them in your fiction then you have to make the difference an explicit part of said fiction with some reasoning behind it rather than just asserting "that doesn't happen here, cuz I say so", but folk who see it that way are never going to listen, and they'll eventually just decide everyone disagreeing with them is a crypto-bigot and someone will bait out a Rule 1 violation or whatever, so why bother.

You can invoke fashion, sculpted armour, reasoning around the Decree Passive fluff, the difference between depiction and endorsement, whatever you like, it's never going to persuade the other side of this discussion because they don't see any of that as legitimate argument, they see it as excuses for latent bigotry or juvenile objectification. Both sides end up like That Tourist who tries to have an argument with someone in a foreign country by simply speaking their own language louder and more slowly, neither understanding the other.

I'm taking the attitude that so long as there's no indication GW are listening to the other lot, there's no reason to argue the point too much.

 Yodhrin wrote:
... they see it as excuses for ... objectification.

The thing is, there not wrong on this point, they just don't get the reasons why and assume it's either A). inherently bad and B). somehow only directed at women. The design of lots of medieval armour types were meant to enhance the areas of the male body that were seen as desirable (again, codpiece!).

You can bet that had women entered into combat in any significant number that we would have seen similar aesthetic emphasis on their armour.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
News Flash:

Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.

So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:

Codpiece

Or sculpted abs and nipples on armor. The codpiece is my favorite though. I think that needs to be reintroduced to modern fiction
I for one would love to see an Inquisitor in power armor rocking a huge, ornate, codpiece.

You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
News Flash:

Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.

So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:

Codpiece

Or sculpted abs and nipples on armor. The codpiece is my favorite though. I think that needs to be reintroduced to modern fiction
I for one would love to see an Inquisitor in power armor rocking a huge, ornate, codpiece.

in the style of sex pistol from the movie: from dusk till dawn

 Galas wrote:
You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

He's my hero, but I think a Chaplain did it first.

terry wrote:

in the style of Sex Machine from the movie: from dusk till dawn

FTFY

 Geifer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

He's my hero, but I think a Chaplain did it first.

I thought this said Chaplin for a second, and was thoroughly confused.

 Geifer wrote:
The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.

Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.

32mm bases are just better. 25mm are too hard to work with, especially with how much space their robes take up.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 zend wrote:
Marakarr is one of the best character minis GW has produced in years

Yes.

 zend wrote:
and has boobplate

No. At least not the kind that “woke” people dislike. I mean, I literally put a picture of her as an example of a “woke” miniature…

 Mmmpi wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"

Pretty much this.

They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.

No, they don't.

I guess it's time for a FA-FA-FA-FACTSTORM :

- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this.
- The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!*
Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.


*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.

yes and no

The Sisters started as the Daughters of the Emperor
Vandire changed them to the Brides of the Emperor - with him as the avatar incarnate of said Emperor.
After they chopped off his head they reverted to the Daughters of the Emperor again.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

He's my hero, but I think a Chaplain did it first.

I thought this said Chaplin for a second, and was thoroughly confused.

Just embrace it and be happier for it. Earlier today I read the Black Library live article on Warhammer Community and misread the first picture as "Konrad Kurze - The Night Hamster". Clearly a mistake, but I consider my life improved.

ERJAK wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.

Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.

32mm bases are just better. 25mm are too hard to work with, especially with how much space their robes take up.

You are of course free to hold that opinion. Many others do as well, but I'm not one of them.

I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.

 Galas wrote:
You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

Ok, this I have to see. Pics or didn't happen.

 Togusa wrote:
I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.

Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.

Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.

I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.

Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"

Ok, this I have to see. Pics or didn't happen.

The one on the left bottom corner, I'm sorry the image isn't bigger


Heres another:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.

Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.

Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.

I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...

Thank you! This actually helps me a lot. I don't really go to the competitive events anymore, I mostly play games within my small group of friends at our FLGS, so there isn't a ton of min/maxing that goes on there. Do you think they'll do well within this kind of environment, at least well enough to not be on the lop side of a battle? I will drag out CA2018 because I forgot that the beta codex was in there!

Oh, definitely would work in that setting. They're hardly at the bottom of the barrel-- Grey Knights and the like are inarguably worse for example.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
[Jes Goodwyn, 1998

I meant in universe .

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Sisters started as the Daughters of the Emperor
Vandire changed them to the Brides of the Emperor - with him as the avatar incarnate of said Emperor.
After they chopped off his head they reverted to the Daughters of the Emperor again.

Yes my bad, I mixed that up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I look at a setting that evokes historical and religious tropes with lots of specific associations, and I assume that if it doesn't specifically lay out some difference to those tropes then the fictional factions and places that evoke them conform to them.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTropesAreDifferent

Filler article about getting your hands on the first plastic Sister:

Short version, available in stores June 29 for "Warhammer Day", also available as direct-only from GW's online store.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/10/battle-sister-bulletin-9-coming-soon-to-a-warhammer-day-near-yougw-homepage-post-1/

Very filler, not much content.
But she has a name, and we will get the datasheet in the box for… a Sister of Battle squad? Why???

So you buy five of her to make the squad?

Oh I am getting her, and I am going to paint her.

Tis gonna be awesome!

 Geifer wrote:
Filler article about getting your hands on the first plastic Sister:

Short version, available in stores June 29 for "Warhammer Day", also available as direct-only from GW's online store.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/10/battle-sister-bulletin-9-coming-soon-to-a-warhammer-day-near-yougw-homepage-post-1/

It's about time. I mean it's many years overdue but still.

Nevermind!

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.

Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.

Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.

I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...

The Index rules were better than the Codex rules for anyone curious.

The index army was a legitimate competitor with a number of different viable builds.

The codex army is a 3+4++ poxwalker horde.

Yeah, at the end of the day I just hope they find SOME way to keep the core of the army "the actual freakin' sisters of battle" and keeping all the elements people have nostalgia for, while also not trying too hard to build something new into a design space that's about as fresh and unexplored as 10,000 year old bread.

That being a power armored army with the imperial weapon set and no variations on it.

There is absolutely nothing you can do with melta guns, flamers, bolters, heavy bolters and power swords strapped to power armored bodies and rhinos that hasn't been done to death by the 1,293,344,234,215 space marine subfactions.

Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.

Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,

Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.

That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.

Compare to say, Eldar.

Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.

That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).

So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.

Grotsnik, IIRC their Witch Hunters release saw all of those entries added, and yeah, the inquisitorial retinues, arco flagellants, inquisitors, and IIRC the storm troopers were part of the book, plus pseudo-allies rules. The Exorcist was an update from the pretty bland FW kit. I can't remember if it was before or after the Witch Hunters release that there were Fraetaris Militia in a chapter approved, but they were back in 3rd after they were removed in the mini-dexes that came in the 3rd ed rulebook.

Oh, the witch hunters release also saw IIRC new weapon options for their transport and generic HQ, and storm bolter special weapons grunts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.

Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,

Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.

That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.

Compare to say, Eldar.

Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.

That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).

So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.

Unlikely. They're doing everything from scratch AFAIK, down to new rhinos.

By current GW standards, getting just the basics out will be a -huge- release.

That doesn't leave much, if any, room for new toys. Maybe one or two (or replacements for existing options), but even that I'd call a poor chance (average if replacing)

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, at the end of the day I just hope they find SOME way to keep the core of the army "the actual freakin' sisters of battle" and keeping all the elements people have nostalgia for, while also not trying too hard to build something new into a design space that's about as fresh and unexplored as 10,000 year old bread.

That being a power armored army with the imperial weapon set and no variations on it.

There is absolutely nothing you can do with melta guns, flamers, bolters, heavy bolters and power swords strapped to power armored bodies and rhinos that hasn't been done to death by the 1,293,344,234,215 space marine subfactions.

You could make them fast. The index list, especially pre-rule of 3 was one of the fastest armies in the game. They played more like Harlequins than space marines, and were incredibly fun and interesting for it. A fast, close range shooting army with next to 0 melee ability was pretty different. (A 'shotgun' army if you will.)

The beta codex went...in a different direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.

Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,

Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.

That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.

Compare to say, Eldar.

Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.

That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).

So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.

Unlikely. They're doing everything from scratch AFAIK, down to new rhinos.

By current GW standards, getting just the basics out will be a -huge- release.

That doesn't leave much, if any, room for new toys. Maybe one or two (or replacements for existing options), but even that I'd call a poor chance (average if replacing)

Not really. You could do the entire army in 4 kits and some clampacks. A deathguard size release would be enough for a half dozen new characters and a handful of new vehicles.

They will ABSOLUTELY have new units because they pretty much have to. If they come out with nothing new there will be no reason for new players to start the army (it certainly won't be for rules) and there will be no reason for grognards to replace their metals unless they just desperately want new plastics. Not to mention that buying more than about 2500pts total EVER would be largely pointless as every playable/collectable model is covered by that range.

They'll be left with collectors, allied detachments, and older players slowly replacing their stuff. With all the hype and investment they're putting in this releasr, that would be massively disappointing.