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Did you NOT see that the author to your vaunted Dodge vs Tesla article is a freaking TESLA SHAREHOLDER?!?!?!?!? Starting to see a trend with your "unbiased" sources...

And that makes the data on towing inaccurate?

The whole Tesalas catching on fire thing is overplayed. Does it happen, sure. Does it happen more than Ice cars, NO.

Hybrids have all the problems of both cars. The main one being that they have the thousands of extra moving parts that break in an Ice Engine.




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jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Every quarter since q3 2018 tesla has been hovering just below 100k cars sold. So 40K cars represents less than a one month supply. Other manufacturers are sitting on 3 to six months of supplies. How long does it take to get a product from factory to customer?

How many Models does Chrysler make right now?

I don't know, but FCA (Fiat, Chryler, Jeep, Ram, Alfa, etc.) have 44 days of inventory (https://www.gurufocus.com/term/InventoryTurnover/FCAU/Inventory+Turnover/Fiat+Chrysler+Automobiles+NV)

As per last filed quarterly figures Tesla has 62 days inventory (https://www.gurufocus.com/term/InventoryTurnover/TSLA/Inventory%252BTurnover/Tesla%2BInc)

BMW has 71, but other multinational groups like Renault or Subaru have 52.

We're talking groups with significantly more models, trims and operations in more countries than Tesla.

Your data is accurate....what you are forgetting is that Classic manufacturers don't sell to buyers, they sell to franchised dealerships. Which means inventory does not sit on the manufacturers sheets sheets but the dealers. Which means FCA is sitting on 44 days of inventory, while dealers are sitting on months of inventory.

https://www.autonews.com/sales/near-record-inventories-pinch-dealers


Tesla sells directly to customers meaning inventory sits on their sheets until the car is actually delivered to the customer. That's really a huge difference.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


I'm not a fan of EVs. Most of the pure electrics that have been hyped and released into the mass market have been busts. Tesla has been the main exception to this.

And while I'm supportive of Elon Musk's ventures in the commercialization of space and space exploration, I'm not sold on his cars and trucks. It will be decades before self driving becomes a thing, and his electric vehicles have a tendency to burst into flames from battery fires. Even when cold, not charging, and at rest. Tesla defenders will point out the fires that sometimes happens in both hybrids and ICE vehicles. But when looked at proportionally, the black mark goes to the Tesla. And the company isn't fessing up that there might be a problem with their cars and SUVs (which are made in the People's Republic of China, by the way).

Add to that, there has been one death attributed to the computer-controlled, automated crap on higher end Teslas (a man in the United States was killed by his car's automatic doors).


When it comes to electric powered cars, hybrids are the best compromise right now, in terms of safety, practicality, and costs.


Either way, I'll stick with my gas burning cars and SUVs for the time being. I'm getting old and set in my ways.

Do you even know how many Teslas have caught fire?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-facing-scrutiny-for-car-fires-but-more-ice-fires-2019-5

That’s only true for the US. Whilst most dealers do hold inventory, mostly of the best selling cheap models, they don’t hold the vast number that the US do. My understanding is that US customers expect to walk in to a dealership and walk away with a new car. In the rest of the world, unless you want one of a tiny handful of specifications, you have to wait weeks or months for a car to be built and shipped. Sometimes from the manufacturers national stock, sometimes from the factory.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Did you NOT see that the author to your vaunted Dodge vs Tesla article is a freaking TESLA SHAREHOLDER?!?!?!?!? Starting to see a trend with your "unbiased" sources...

And that makes the data on towing inaccurate?

Your data on towing may be accurate (may, because until production Tesla trucks hit the road we don't really know), but your opinion on towing is not. What makes your opinion on towing inaccurate is the fact you believe nothing but a dual rear wheel gad/diesel can out tow a Tesla, and I easily proved you wrong.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Every quarter since q3 2018 tesla has been hovering just below 100k cars sold. So 40K cars represents less than a one month supply. Other manufacturers are sitting on 3 to six months of supplies. How long does it take to get a product from factory to customer?

How many Models does Chrysler make right now?

I don't know, but FCA (Fiat, Chryler, Jeep, Ram, Alfa, etc.) have 44 days of inventory (https://www.gurufocus.com/term/InventoryTurnover/FCAU/Inventory+Turnover/Fiat+Chrysler+Automobiles+NV)

As per last filed quarterly figures Tesla has 62 days inventory (https://www.gurufocus.com/term/InventoryTurnover/TSLA/Inventory%252BTurnover/Tesla%2BInc)

BMW has 71, but other multinational groups like Renault or Subaru have 52.

We're talking groups with significantly more models, trims and operations in more countries than Tesla.

Your data is accurate....what you are forgetting is that Classic manufacturers don't sell to buyers, they sell to franchised dealerships. Which means inventory does not sit on the manufacturers sheets sheets but the dealers. Which means FCA is sitting on 44 days of inventory, while dealers are sitting on months of inventory.

https://www.autonews.com/sales/near-record-inventories-pinch-dealers


Tesla sells directly to customers meaning inventory sits on their sheets until the car is actually delivered to the customer. That's really a huge difference.

Why does Tesla have over a billion $ in accounts receivable then?

By default they should have close to 0.

But the question is moot, Tesla sells cars to their customers, whoever they are, FCA, Renault, etc. sell cars to their customers, whoever they are. FCA, Renault, Suzuki, etc. inventory days are lower.

 Steve steveson wrote:
That’s only true for the US. Whilst most dealers do hold inventory, mostly of the best selling cheap models, they don’t hold the vast number that the US do. My understanding is that US customers expect to walk in to a dealership and walk away with a new car. In the rest of the world, unless you want one of a tiny handful of specifications, you have to wait weeks or months for a car to be built and shipped. Sometimes from the manufacturers national stock, sometimes from the factory.

Spot on.

 CptJake wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Did you NOT see that the author to your vaunted Dodge vs Tesla article is a freaking TESLA SHAREHOLDER?!?!?!?!? Starting to see a trend with your "unbiased" sources...

And that makes the data on towing inaccurate?

Your data on towing may be accurate (may, because until production Tesla trucks hit the road we don't really know), but your opinion on towing is not. What makes your opinion on towing inaccurate is the fact you believe nothing but a dual rear wheel gad/diesel can out tow a Tesla, and I easily proved you wrong.

No you didn't, which truck that didn't have a dual rear set up was out towing the Tesla?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:
That’s only true for the US. Whilst most dealers do hold inventory, mostly of the best selling cheap models, they don’t hold the vast number that the US do. My understanding is that US customers expect to walk in to a dealership and walk away with a new car. In the rest of the world, unless you want one of a tiny handful of specifications, you have to wait weeks or months for a car to be built and shipped. Sometimes from the manufacturers national stock, sometimes from the factory.

So, let me get this straight, the huge amount of cars sitting in US lots that are sold to dealerships don't count at all......I'm sorry but the article I posted clearly shows it does. Those cars are no longer manufacturer inventory, they are dealer inventory, sold to dealerships, not customers. I've also seen huge new car lots in other countries.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cars-suv-inventory-incentives-deal/

https://thenewswheel.com/dealerships-currently-carry-an-excessive-inventory-of-3-95-million-unsold-vehicles/ That's 3.9 million vehicles sitting on lots on dealership sheets!

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/04/amid-rising-inven-falling-sales-dealers-are-literally-staking-out-new-groundtories-and/ oopps, up to 4.2 million, all on dealer sheets, thats doesnt even include the inventory the manufacturers are sitting on. Not to mention that this build up happened during a strike when production wasn't even going on.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/car-dealers-struggle-to-sell-2018-new-car-inventory-to-make-room-for-2020-cars.html Dealers struggling to unload 2018 inventory, manufacturers holding back on releasing 2020 models. But you guys are ALL correct Tesla is sitting on huge amounts of stock....I bet you would be very hard pressed to find a 2018 Tesla selling as new if only there was a way to see all the Tesla inventory available for sale......oh wait

https://electrek.co/2019/04/20/tesla-model-3-new-inventory-immediate-delivery/ Hmm, I didn't see any old vin numbers when I was looking. Obviously Tesla must be up to something and not showing all their stock for sale. By your argument there has to be hundreds of thousands of unsold stock from early in the year...amybe even last year just sitting around somewhere.....but where is it?

https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new/m3 Maybe you can find the huge inventory glut here.....look in your area...or any area and see where they have inventory sitting around.

Maybe its here https://teslainventory.teslastats.no/........nope didn't see it there either. Oh, I know its Tesla so it must all be on fire somewhere.......seriously you guys are reaching so hard, its laughable.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-tesla-model-3-cars-are-sitting-in-california-parking-lots-2018-7 oh, i found some huge lots of telsas........already sold, heading for ships to be delivered to customers. Still on their sheets until customers actually pick them up......i wonder how long it takes to get those from production to customer hands? You have to produce them, stock them, wait until you have enough to put on the ship, move them to the docks, load them on the ship, and how long is the journey, probably a while to ship them to China. If they were smart they would build a factory in China and one in Europe somewhere to speed up deliveries......oh wait they did...and they are.

By the way which one of you was predicting the chinese factory would never get built, would take years, would bankrupt Tesla and would eventually fall back into the hands of China?



Oh, big bummer, a car caught on fire at Tesla supercharger and burns down much of the station. Talk about Irony, don't i feel like a silly goose, here I was saying that Teslas don't catch on fire much and here we have a car catching on fire and taking out the whole station. Its super ironic because the car was an .......ICE car. I guess now you guys will switch the narrative to how unsafe supercharger stations are...I mean they apparently light ICE cars on fire. AM I RIGHT?https://electrek.co/2019/12/10/tesla-supercharger-station-destroyed-car-engine-fire/

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Did you NOT see that the author to your vaunted Dodge vs Tesla article is a freaking TESLA SHAREHOLDER?!?!?!?!? Starting to see a trend with your "unbiased" sources...

And that makes the data on towing inaccurate?

Your data on towing may be accurate (may, because until production Tesla trucks hit the road we don't really know), but your opinion on towing is not. What makes your opinion on towing inaccurate is the fact you believe nothing but a dual rear wheel gad/diesel can out tow a Tesla, and I easily proved you wrong.

No you didn't, which truck that didn't have a dual rear set up was out towing the Tesla?

Now you're being dishonest. I very clearly linked to a SRW F350. And then I re-pointed it out when you claimed I showed a DRW. It out towed the high end Tesla by a couple of tons.





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Heck, the SRW Ram 3500 diesel can tow 17,900 pounds.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2017_ram_3500_towing_charts.pdf

And the charts at this link show F150s and Ram 1500s out towing the Tesla: https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/tesla-cybertruck-towing-comparison-ar187087.html






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Heck, the reality is the high end Tesla only our tows low and mid level Fords and Dodges.

 CptJake wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Did you NOT see that the author to your vaunted Dodge vs Tesla article is a freaking TESLA SHAREHOLDER?!?!?!?!? Starting to see a trend with your "unbiased" sources...

And that makes the data on towing inaccurate?

Your data on towing may be accurate (may, because until production Tesla trucks hit the road we don't really know), but your opinion on towing is not. What makes your opinion on towing inaccurate is the fact you believe nothing but a dual rear wheel gad/diesel can out tow a Tesla, and I easily proved you wrong.

No you didn't, which truck that didn't have a dual rear set up was out towing the Tesla?

Now you're being dishonest. I very clearly linked to a SRW F350. And then I re-pointed it out when you claimed I showed a DRW. It out towed the high end Tesla by a couple of tons.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, the SRW Ram 3500 diesel can tow 17,900 pounds.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2017_ram_3500_towing_charts.pdf

And the charts at this link show F150s and Ram 1500s out towing the Tesla: https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/tesla-cybertruck-towing-comparison-ar187087.html






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, the reality is the high end Tesla only our tows low and mid level Fords and Dodges.

Yes but again, im not seeing where it says if these have 6 wheels or not, every truck that I have looked up can only do this when you have 2 axels and six wheels. They need the extra traction to tow the huge weights.

(Edit...ok I see your charts. took me a minute to figure out how to read them.)

But lets say you are correct. Whats the cost of these beasts, how much will they cost after 5 years.....I bet they are not competitive at all there. Not to mention other areas like 0-60 times.

https://electrek.co/2019/12/05/tesla-cybertruck-cheaper-than-ford-f150-cost-of-ownership/

The bar that is being set that EVs have to beat every single competitor at every single spec is a pretty high bar to reach. 14,000 pound towing is a very respectable number especially considering the other benefits of the truck. Its not a weak truck by any means.



And in other news Porsche Tycant get an EPA official rating of 201 miles per charge! Thats the number they have to put on the sticker! Yep its a Tesla killer. Tesla model s at about half the cost gets almost twice the range at 373 miles per charge while also giving you better access to charging! This is probably the most forgiving post i could find https://jalopnik.com/the-porsche-taycan-turbos-epa-range-of-201-miles-is-so-1840366884

Could you imagine if Tesla promised 300 miles of charging and only delivered 201......the knives would be out! Elon would be labeled a con artist.

Most EVS are good in many ways, but there is no doubt that Teslas are better and pushing the technology farther while giving customers better value, performance and utility for their money.

Moving away from Tesla for a bit, has anyone seen the Lotus Evija? Looks *insane*...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-50549634/lotus-evija-the-22m-electric-hypercar

Shame I don't have a spare 2.2 million quid really.

 Andrew1975 wrote:


The bar that is being set that EVs have to beat every single competitor at every single spec is a pretty high bar to reach. 14,000 pound towing is a very respectable number especially considering the other benefits of the truck. Its not a weak truck by any means.

The bar YOU set was 'you need a DRW to out tow a Tesla.'.

I've shown you are very wrong. You can now move the bar anywhere you want.

Crispy78 wrote:
Moving away from Tesla for a bit, has anyone seen the Lotus Evija? Looks *insane*...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-50549634/lotus-evija-the-22m-electric-hypercar

Shame I don't have a spare 2.2 million quid really.

Ohh, I cant wait for it to develop an oil leak!!!

Bad british car jokes aside, that does look like it would be fun to drive, and it will probably be better than the original Lotus EV released to the market

 CptJake wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


The bar that is being set that EVs have to beat every single competitor at every single spec is a pretty high bar to reach. 14,000 pound towing is a very respectable number especially considering the other benefits of the truck. Its not a weak truck by any means.

The bar YOU set was 'you need a DRW to out tow a Tesla.'.

I've shown you are very wrong. You can now move the bar anywhere you want.

Fine, so how much does it cost to out tow a Tesla cybertruck?

I model x which is a mini van can outow most ice trucks. I can post a video of you need it.

https://insideevs.com/news/387401/video-tesla-model-x-tow-versus-ford-f150/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://insideevs.com/news/387401/video-tesla-model-x-tow-versus-ford-f150/


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Crispy78 wrote:
Moving away from Tesla for a bit, has anyone seen the Lotus Evija? Looks *insane*...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-50549634/lotus-evija-the-22m-electric-hypercar

Shame I don't have a spare 2.2 million quid really.

2.2 million....holy crap! I'd like to see some real specs. Its real pretty though. https://www.motor1.com/news/360174/lotus-evija-ev-hypercar-debuts/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.motor1.com/news/360174/lotus-evija-ev-hypercar-debuts/

Hey Jouso.....This has got to hurt. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-network-hits-new-milestone-with-15k-open-stalls-worldwide/

No demand huh? Telsa still selling almost every car made. Q4 is a historic quarter!

https://electrek.co/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-all-time-high-impressing-delivery-numbers/

 Andrew1975 wrote:
No demand huh? Telsa still selling almost every car made. Q4 is a historic quarter!

https://electrek.co/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-all-time-high-impressing-delivery-numbers/

Dude, serious question: why? Why do you seem to care so much about telling us all how great Tesla are doing, on a wargaming forum, in such a way that nobody who's even still reading this thread likely cares what you're saying now anyway because you're approaching cartoon villain levels of dedication to your singular cause? This was an interesting and useful thread for a little while, until we ended up with the pro-Tesla banner-waving that drowned out everything else and now we're getting weekly updates about Tesla's business dealings for some reason. You like Tesla, we get it. Not everyone does and it's not your job to act as their PR on this forum, unless they have a very, very overstaffed marketing department. As a general rule of thumb, if every post you're going to make in a particular thread is so single-minded that people don't need to actually read the contents to know the substance of it you're probably not helpfully contributing.

Speaking of helpfully contributing, I was thinking about using this thread to let people know about my experiences of driving an electric car form the POV of someone who's never owned one before and is essentially an informed newbie. Seems that might not be so useful now this thread has been hijacked and turned into Tesla News.

Slipspace wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
No demand huh? Telsa still selling almost every car made. Q4 is a historic quarter!

https://electrek.co/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-all-time-high-impressing-delivery-numbers/

Dude, serious question: why? Why do you seem to care so much about telling us all how great Tesla are doing, on a wargaming forum, in such a way that nobody who's even still reading this thread likely cares what you're saying now anyway because you're approaching cartoon villain levels of dedication to your singular cause? This was an interesting and useful thread for a little while, until we ended up with the pro-Tesla banner-waving that drowned out everything else and now we're getting weekly updates about Tesla's business dealings for some reason. You like Tesla, we get it. Not everyone does and it's not your job to act as their PR on this forum, unless they have a very, very overstaffed marketing department. As a general rule of thumb, if every post you're going to make in a particular thread is so single-minded that people don't need to actually read the contents to know the substance of it you're probably not helpfully contributing.

Speaking of helpfully contributing, I was thinking about using this thread to let people know about my experiences of driving an electric car form the POV of someone who's never owned one before and is essentially an informed newbie. Seems that might not be so useful now this thread has been hijacked and turned into Tesla News.

Why? Because he has spent £70k or whatever it is on a Tesla and wants to vindicate his decision. You are not going to be able to tell someone who has spent that amount of cash on a car that they are wrong. No-one likes to be told that they have bought a lemon, whether it's true or not.

Speaking of helpfully contributing, I was thinking about using this thread to let people know about my experiences of driving an electric car form the POV of someone who's never owned one before and is essentially an informed newbie. Seems that might not be so useful now this thread has been hijacked and turned into Tesla News.

No, please do, that would be helpful.

And in another electric car news, Fisker is coming out with a $37K SUV with solar roof.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/5/21050802/fisker-ocean-electric-suv-solar-roof-range-price-ces-2020

Electric vehicle entrepreneur Henrik Fisker has unveiled his first purportedly mass-market EV, an SUV called the Fisker Ocean, ahead of the 2020 Consumer Electronics show. Starting at $37,500, Fisker says the electric SUV will get between 250 and 300 miles per charge, and it will feature solar panels on the roof. Fisker and his eponymous company, Fisker Inc., plan to put the Ocean on the road sometime around the end of 2021 or the beginning of 2022.

Fisker started Fisker Inc. in 2016, three years after his first company — Fisker Automotive — went bankrupt, thanks to the failure of his hybrid sports car known as Karma. The Karma was ultimately revived by a Chinese company after Fisker Automotive’s bankruptcy auction; that company is now called Karma Automotive, and the car is called the Revero. (Got all that?) Known for designing icons like the Aston Martin DB9 and the BMW Z8, as well as a brief stint at Tesla, Fisker originally intended to start his new company with an all-electric sports car known as the EMotion, which he unveiled at CES in 2018. But Fisker announced he was suspending the project in favor of the Ocean in March 2019.

Fisker Inc. has spent much of the time since then teasing more information about its electric SUV, like when it announced in November that it plans to lease the Ocean starting at $379 a month with no long-term contract, or when it said its EVs will be able to use Volkswagen’s Electrify America charging network. But Fisker himself showed off the first Ocean prototype in the flesh on Sunday at an event in Los Angeles, California, and the company will have it on display at CES where it plans to share more information about the EV.
"Fisker’s boldly calling it the “world’s most sustainable vehicle”"

Save for the solar roof, the Ocean doesn’t seem to break any SUV conventions. Fisker only released one new image of the prototype on public roads, but from that limited view it appears to have similarities to Volvo’s XC40 in its profile, and Land Rover’s SUVs in its nose, though in more of a Hyundai-level package.

One technical spec Fisker teased on Sunday is that there will be a performance version of the Ocean that can go from 0 to 60 miles per hour in 2.9 seconds. He also said there will be multiple powertrain configurations, likely meaning that the base version of the Ocean will come with one electric motor. The company said on Sunday that the base version will also be powered by a battery pack that is approximately 80kWh.

Fisker Inc. also says it plans to develop two other models that will use the Ocean’s technological platform. The startup also teased features like a karaoke mode (which Tesla added to its cars late last year) and a “California mode” where all the windows will roll down at the touch of a button.

I like the idea of a solar roof, I dunno why more EVs haven't done that yet. I read somewhere that solar doesn't charge fast enough... but still, if your car is gonna sit out all day, why not get some free juice?

Solar roofs weren't popular because up until "relatively" recently solar panels were expensive. Now they're not. A major and very legitimate concern with modern cars is building them in a fashion that the car is not immediately total'ed when in an accident because of ultra-expensive components which are difficult to replace. That's not an issue limited to electric cars, of course.

Ever seen those show-cars will cool sloping glass roofs which go from the dash up and halfway across the roof of the car, etc? Looks neat right? Now imagine having a small rock put a hole in your windshield...and suddenly you're paying $5K for a windshield as opposed to $200-300 (or free, depending on your state).

 Elbows wrote:
Solar roofs weren't popular because up until "relatively" recently solar panels were expensive. Now they're not. A major and very legitimate concern with modern cars is building them in a fashion that the car is not immediately total'ed when in an accident because of ultra-expensive components which are difficult to replace. That's not an issue limited to electric cars, of course.

Ever seen those show-cars will cool sloping glass roofs which go from the dash up and halfway across the roof of the car, etc? Looks neat right? Now imagine having a small rock put a hole in your windshield...and suddenly you're paying $5K for a windshield as opposed to $200-300 (or free, depending on your state).

its cost, but also usability. Solar panels on cars are so small they dont charge very much, and only in direct sun. Solar is improving all the time, but it will be a while before it is really workable for cars. Its also about efficiency, when you add a solar system to a car you are adding weight, considering how much benefit current solar tech provides most people would be better off taking that extra weight in batteries. Not to mention additional maintenance and complexity, regions that don't get much sun, parking garages that dont get sun.....yadda, yadda, yadda and you have a formula that doesnt make sense....yet. Unitl it imporves its basically an expensive and ineffective gimmick. You are better off getting solar at your house and using that to charge.....if its available. Where I live, I have too many trees to power my house with solar, and even if I could I'm not sure how useful it would be as thats where my research ended. I would assume snow, leaves and dirt affect home solar panels, and I have all that in spades.

Many newer production cars, not just show cars have one or two piece panoramic roofs now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
No demand huh? Telsa still selling almost every car made. Q4 is a historic quarter!

https://electrek.co/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-all-time-high-impressing-delivery-numbers/

Dude, serious question: why? Why do you seem to care so much about telling us all how great Tesla are doing, on a wargaming forum, in such a way that nobody who's even still reading this thread likely cares what you're saying now anyway because you're approaching cartoon villain levels of dedication to your singular cause? This was an interesting and useful thread for a little while, until we ended up with the pro-Tesla banner-waving that drowned out everything else and now we're getting weekly updates about Tesla's business dealings for some reason. You like Tesla, we get it. Not everyone does and it's not your job to act as their PR on this forum, unless they have a very, very overstaffed marketing department. As a general rule of thumb, if every post you're going to make in a particular thread is so single-minded that people don't need to actually read the contents to know the substance of it you're probably not helpfully contributing.


Speaking of helpfully contributing, I was thinking about using this thread to let people know about my experiences of driving an electric car form the POV of someone who's never owned one before and is essentially an informed newbie. Seems that might not be so useful now this thread has been hijacked and turned into Tesla News.

That's pretty simple really. When I first came on here people listed reasons why electric cars are not good...many of them were valid arguments when you look at EVs with small batteries, low end performance, and poor access to fast charging. Teslas dont have those issues. I would say for the most part EVs are great second cars, but if you want a main car that can be a daily driver and feel comfortable taking long trips without range anxiety, or worrying about the maintenance of the next charging destination....I think your best and really only option right now is a Tesla. I've read a lot of articles about how poorly maintained, unreliable and difficult other charging networks can be, and I'm not saying its terrible, but range anxiety is a real thing, there is nothing like being low on charge and finding that you cant use the charger you plotted because it is not being maintained, it requires a different membership...whatever. Tesla chargers from my research are very well maintained, now sometimes there is a wait on holidays, but new faster chargers are rolling out quite aggressively, more aggressively than the competition.

Of course then came all the Tesla is a fraud company and Tesla is going bankrupt talk....so, I just really responded to that.

But again the biggest point is that for true EV adoption IE replacing ICE cars, EVs in general are not up to the task, they don't outshine ICE cars in most ways....Teslas however do, they have the range, efficiency, fueling, performance, and price to be competitive on every level with new ICE cars. Other car makers are coming along, but I haven't seen one that has as good of a combination. 300 miles minimum charge, large and expanding fast charging network, performance comparable or better than an ICE car. If you can name one I'd be more than happy to look at it.

And how is your EV working out for you by the way? What experiences good or bad have you had with it?

Don't forget the part where you dismiss any legitimate data that isn't from one of your preferred outlets, even going so far as defending a skewed report written by a Tesla shareholder and dismissing the journalistic conflict of interest and credibility of said piece.

 filbert wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
No demand huh? Telsa still selling almost every car made. Q4 is a historic quarter!

https://electrek.co/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-all-time-high-impressing-delivery-numbers/

Dude, serious question: why? Why do you seem to care so much about telling us all how great Tesla are doing, on a wargaming forum, in such a way that nobody who's even still reading this thread likely cares what you're saying now anyway because you're approaching cartoon villain levels of dedication to your singular cause? This was an interesting and useful thread for a little while, until we ended up with the pro-Tesla banner-waving that drowned out everything else and now we're getting weekly updates about Tesla's business dealings for some reason. You like Tesla, we get it. Not everyone does and it's not your job to act as their PR on this forum, unless they have a very, very overstaffed marketing department. As a general rule of thumb, if every post you're going to make in a particular thread is so single-minded that people don't need to actually read the contents to know the substance of it you're probably not helpfully contributing.

Speaking of helpfully contributing, I was thinking about using this thread to let people know about my experiences of driving an electric car form the POV of someone who's never owned one before and is essentially an informed newbie. Seems that might not be so useful now this thread has been hijacked and turned into Tesla News.

Why? Because he has spent £70k or whatever it is on a Tesla and wants to vindicate his decision. You are not going to be able to tell someone who has spent that amount of cash on a car that they are wrong. No-one likes to be told that they have bought a lemon, whether it's true or not.

Thats not it at all. I know what I got, and I didnt have to pay 70K for it. Thats the thing. I was very skeptical of purchasing an EV, I had gone through all the arguments as I looked at what was available. This one drives like garbage, this one doesnt have range, this one is too small, this one doesnt charge well, this one is known for not having good batteries......it can make you think that EVS are not a solution. My car was the solution. I've had it almost a year and I can say its been awesome. So when I hear people, who quite honestly don't know what they are talking about and are just spreading the same junk stories....yeah, I'm going to tell then they are wrong.

Its like the whole cobolt thing.....the rumor is that EVs use of cobalt makes them worse for the environment than ICE cars......now in production that might be true as the batteries of EVs have cobalt in them and ICE cars don't, this is an absolutely true statement, and its used all the time to beat up EV driver over their Environmentally clean claims.....but whats interesting is this. All oil had sulfur in it, do you know what they use to get the sulfur out...........cobalt! The average ICE car goes through many many times as much cobalt as an EV does in it lifetime.

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/desulphurisation.html

Ive seen every form of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) expressed in this forum....its the same stuff legacy manufacturers are trying to spread to slow down the implementation of EVs and its true with a lot of other EVs....they don't have the stats to replace ICE cars yet, thats not true with Teslas.


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 Just Tony wrote:
Don't forget the part where you dismiss any legitimate data that isn't from one of your preferred outlets, even going so far as defending a skewed report written by a Tesla shareholder and dismissing the journalistic conflict of interest and credibility of said piece.

and which piece was that again that I dismissed.....was it the one written by someones neighbor who is an "expert" in the field, but their paper was never submitted for review and full of typos and inaccuracies? Ypu'll have to remind me, there have been so many garbage articles tossed at me here, that any research at all will show are BS.

was my article this one? It appears to be the one you were going on about. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/03/tesla-cybertruck-vs-ram-1500/ Which is essentially a list of car stats? I wasn't aware that partisanship affected publicly available statistics? Can you show where they were wrong? If so, I'll admit it. But if you can't find inaccuracies......then you have to admit it....deal? So go ahead....show me the Skew?

That article...which is the one you referenced earlier is essentially a summation of another article NOT written by a share holder...it even links to the original article. https://www.wheelsjoint.com/tesla-cybertruck-vs-ram-1500/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.wheelsjoint.com/tesla-cybertruck-vs-ram-1500/

This is the type of crap i've been dealing with the whole topic. Which is what appears to be frustrating the OP, the fact that I actually respond to this garbage.

Fisker? Fisker? Really Frazzled....talk about a sham of a company. In other new Sony is releasing an EV...maybe. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/01/sony-stuns-ces-with-an-electric-show-car-the-vision-s/

and Faraday (another very shaky company) has a new Limo https://www.wired.com/2017/01/video-faraday-future/

 Necros wrote:
I like the idea of a solar roof, I dunno why more EVs haven't done that yet. I read somewhere that solar doesn't charge fast enough... but still, if your car is gonna sit out all day, why not get some free juice?

From what I know about solar panels, they either give a lot of power or none at all. IE: even a small amount of shade on the panels will kill any ability to generate power. So while it sounds like a cool idea to get some free power, realistically most cars get parked in the shade or are shaded for some portion of the day. Which means next to no power generation.

You'd basically have to park your car somewhere with no shade at all to get much use out of the solar cells. This is one reason why solar doesn't work on a lot of homes, especially if you have any trees nearby. It doesn't take much shade to stop a solar panel from generating power.

 Grey Templar wrote:


From what I know about solar panels, they either give a lot of power or none at all. IE: even a small amount of shade on the panels will kill any ability to generate power. So while it sounds like a cool idea to get some free power, realistically most cars get parked in the shade or are shaded for some portion of the day. Which means next to no power generation.

You'd basically have to park your car somewhere with no shade at all to get much use out of the solar cells. This is one reason why solar doesn't work on a lot of homes, especially if you have any trees nearby. It doesn't take much shade to stop a solar panel from generating power.

As I understand things (from people who have recently installed them on their homes), this is no longer really the case. I don't know whether the vehicle mounted solar panels are to the same level as homes/building installed units, but the most recent generations of solar panels are able to still draw power even under indirect sunlight (obviously with degraded collection capacity, if its pouring rain and twilight outside, things arent gonna be getting the solar rays at that point)

So necros, Hows your EV? Do you live somewhere where it gets really cold in the winter? Do you have a home charger if so What Level? Hows it working out for you?

Slipspace, What about you? Hows the Leaf, you happy with it?

As there seems to be some interest, here's a brief summary of my EV experiences so far. I'll probably continue to update this as we use the car more. First a quick recap of some stuff I've already mentioned in this thread.

My wife and I have never owned a car before and decided it was about time to get one. We researched throughout the summer and the key things we were looking for were:

1. Price. It had to be affordable for us up-front. Yes, you save money in the long-run on an EV over an ICE but there's no getting away from the initial cost being quite high
2. Range. We live in the central belt of Scotland, on the outskirts of Edinburgh. We weren't planning any long road trips any further than probably 250 miles. Anything more than that we'd likely fly (if going to London, for example). Still, we wanted something with at least 150 miles of range, ideally. Unfortuantely, as with most things car related, getting reliable info about things like range is difficult and this proved a bit of a sticking point. The vast majority of our journeys would be in the 20-50 mile range
3. Space. We would sometimes need to transport family members and friends and we're planning to start a family ourselves too, so we needed something with a bit of space and luggage capacity.
4. Reliability. We're jumping though a lot of hoops to get on the EV bandwagon and it's also our first car so we needed something we were confident in

So after looking at all the options we narrowed it down to 2 possibilities: the Nissan Leaf and the BMW i3. Why those? Well, the eGolf has pathetic range, the Zoe is too small and the Kona and e-Niro weren't actually available in the UK this summer (orders are backed up until March this year). We considered the Model 3 but, while it was available, the only Model 3s Tesla were selling at that point were the very expensive versions and even those weren't immediately available. Also, we have personal knowledge of 2 different families who have recently bought a Tesla and the process they described was anything but smooth. After test drives we settled on the Leaf because the i3 was ultimately too weird, impractical and expensive - and the BMW dealer was a donkey-cave while the Nissan dealer was genuinely helpful.

We took delivery in October - a bit later than we would have liked. We've now done about 1300 miles and so far are very happy. We have a home charger installed which, other than one glitch where it didn't charge overnight, has been excellent. The car itself has had no issues at all. We've done 1 medium distance trip (about 70 miles each way) and one longer trip of 120 miles each way. This is where we first encountered a couple of quirks with EV ownership. First, in the UK, there are lots of different EV charging networks and each operates a slightly different system for accessing their chargers. Some take a simple debit/credit card payment, others you access using an app and others require a special card from the company. We were vaguely aware of this but it was quite frustrating that you need to know ahead of time which of the various options are open to you at your destination and along your route. This is, frankly, a stupid system as all these chargers should accept debit/credit card payment. We had a bit of an issue on our first trip when we got to the chargers and found out the local council had changed the access policy to require an RFID card rather than app. That sucked. We sorted ourselves out with a slower charger in a supermarket car park while we ate but it was a little annoying all the same. Our second trip of 120 miles each way went much better. We identified a fast charger halfway along the route, stopped for breakfast and a quick electric top-up and then charged in a car park in Newcastle while we met family in the city, then did the same on the way back, stopping for food while charging. Not sure what the situation is like in other countries but I think if the UK government wants EVs to really take off they need to start doing something to make accessing the charging networks easier. We also encountered an interesting practical issue when looking for chargers in car parks, especially multi-storeys. The charging stations are never signposted so you spend your time crawling around the car park, scanning avidly for those charging points. In one car park we drove past them because they were right at the entrance and there was a one-way system in operation so we couldn't technically go back to them (this didn't actually stop us!) As EVs become more common I think practical considerations like displaying where your charging points are located will become more important. Of course, at some point we may have charging points become so common they don't need to be pointed out.

Lessons learned so far: real-world range is heavily affected by driving style and slightly less so by temperature. On our return from the 70-mile trip I was somewhat heavy-footed on the motorway and it had a noticeable drain on the battery. Driving less like a teenager in a Golf GTi on our longer trip saw huge efficiency savings on the battery. That was a bit of an eye-opener, but we're glad we found it out early. I'd say range anxiety has massively decreased in just the few months we've owned the car. In 99% of cases it's never an issue because round trips of 120+ miles are just not something we routinely do and I think this is true for the vast majority of people in the UK. Performance wise I'm also pretty happy. As with all EVs the Leaf accelerates very quickly, especially from a standing start and it's actually quite pleasant to drive. The absolute best thing so far has been 1-pedal driving. I complete pretty much every journey in and around the city without even needing to touch the brakes and driving in heavy, slow-moving traffic is, if not actually relaxing, certainly not an unpleasant experience. We've also easily got into the habit of plugging the car in at home when the battery gets below 70%, so most journeys are done with the charge between 60-100% but we have had the state of charge as low as 8% once. We were literally a mile from home at the time though so not unduly worried.

That's a brief summary so far. I'll keep updating as we get more experience if people are interested. It's easy to pore over all the technical specs, prices and so on but I think most people considering getting an EV are more concerned about the practicalities on a day-to-day basis given how big a change it is from the norm.

Thanks for the writeup Slipspace.

The Leaf is what we'll probably get, and I have tried one at work. Cost and charging are the only issues we have so far.

Charging on trips is a later concern. I've been hassling the local councils to pull their fingers out and get some points installed, but they have to dicuss amongst themselves first (and next, and later...).

 Andrew1975 wrote:
So necros, Hows your EV? Do you live somewhere where it gets really cold in the winter? Do you have a home charger if so What Level? Hows it working out for you?

Slipspace, What about you? Hows the Leaf, you happy with it?

I didn't get an EV. I needed to get a new car back in August, and didn't really have the funds to make an EV happen so I went with a Jeep Compass. It's a 3 year lease, so I'm hoping when it's up there will be more options available. I'm most interested in the VW ID Buzz just on looks alone and I don't think they will be out till next year anyway.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Thanks for the writeup Slipspace.

The Leaf is what we'll probably get, and I have tried one at work. Cost and charging are the only issues we have so far.

Charging on trips is a later concern. I've been hassling the local councils to pull their fingers out and get some points installed, but they have to dicuss amongst themselves first (and next, and later...).

How far are you looking to travel, both on average and in more exceptional circumstances? If a home charger is an option you absolutely want to go with that. If it isn't, unless you can charge at work or wherever the car will most often be left, I'm not sure the practicalities of EVs work out so well. If you can charge at home you'll find you basically never have to worry about charging except when you're going on longer distance journeys. After 3 months of ownership we've plugged our Leaf in away from home a grand total of 4 times.

This is a 2nd car, and my wife's is used for bigger journeys.
I'm 15 miles from my main office, but work county-wide. A day's round trip could be >100 miles.
As long as there's a McDs near one of the sites, I should be OK.

I have a drive to park it on, so that should be OK for a charger. How long did it take to get the charger installed? You need a car already to get the goverment grant?

 Skinnereal wrote:
This is a 2nd car, and my wife's is used for bigger journeys.
I'm 15 miles from my main office, but work county-wide. A day's round trip could be >100 miles.
As long as there's a McDs near one of the sites, I should be OK.

I have a drive to park it on, so that should be OK for a charger. How long did it take to get the charger installed? You need a car already to get the goverment grant?

100 miles is well within the range of the 40kWh Leaf. 130ish is a realistic range provided you're not doing purely motorway driving at speeds above the actual speed limit. Even if you find you're getting a bit tight on range you'd literally need 10 minutes at a rapid charger for a top-up to be safe. There's also a 60kWh Leaf which has longer range but is a bit more expensive and only comes in the highest trim level which, ironically, I think is worse than the mid-level trim we went for.

The government grant is applied at the point of purchase. Be aware, this can lead to some confusion about what you're actually paying for the car as some dealers/websites take the money off the price you see in the showroom and others show the full price before the grant comes off. The charger was installed pretty quickly. Once I was in contact with the installers it took maybe a bit less than two weeks for them to come out and the installation itself took less than a day.