Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Vineheart01**

theres also the stigma that FW is basically cheesemode.

In my area FW is sorta risky to try and use. My orks can get away with it because quite frankly none of it is all that amazing and looks sick, but i bet if i ran hoplites in drills id get a lot of snide looks lol.

**Suzuteo**

I just had an interesting thought: If I take the Xenos Inquisitor with Chainsword and Bolter with Esoteric Lore and the Blackshroud relic, I can probably make back a lot of my CP. Thing is, I would need to add a red stripe to my tanks or something to show that they are Mars and the rest of my army is Stygies. One major downside though is that with two Drills (and I don't own another two Boats), I cannot fit Calivers into the list. Sigh.

EDIT: Here is a list:

Spoiler:

dadamowsky wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:

Hoplites are strictly superior to Ruststalkers if we're talking low points infantry.

As long as ETC is superstitious about FW, Hoplites are not for me. Just like the Drills :(

Well, Fulgurites are 14 ppm now. So there's not much a point to talking Ruststalkers anyway, even if you can only take GW.

**Pomguo**

Vineheart01 wrote:
theres also the stigma that FW is basically cheesemode.

In my area FW is sorta risky to try and use. My orks can get away with it because quite frankly none of it is all that amazing and looks sick, but i bet if i ran hoplites in drills id get a lot of snide looks lol.

Which is incredibly daft. It’s a decent unit with major drawbacks, like many units in our dex (and weaker than some). It’s not as if FW-enhanced admech are tearing up the competitive circuit in ITC.

They’re running on a 7th edition mindset and it’s embarrassing they haven’t been keeping up. The only brutal FW units are a couple of space marine dreads and at one point that Custodes grav tank. Even those aren’t as strong as some GW units have been this edition.

**Vineheart01**

Thats kinda the problem because prior to 8th thats the main units that got used, and in 8th they became godlike.

People have a bad habit of focusing on one or two things and not the whole.

Knowing me i'll get some hoplites at some point both because im a collector..i like to have all the units just because i can (why else would i own a friggen Squigbuggy...) and i love the shield/spear aesthetic of Hoplites.
But with all these out-of-codex releases....might be awhile lol

**Ragnar Blackmane**

I'm curious, what is everyone thinking about the new 2 point arc rifles? I really like them already on my min sized (5-6 models) Ranger units, even those for screening, but at 2 points they seem like quite a steal considering the +2S, guaranteed -1 AP and the D3 against vehicles (and there a bunch of those). Seems to me like paying the extra 4 points for every min sized ranger units is more than worth it, except for Arquebus units and maybe one unit which only serves to sit on home base objectives.

Calivers still seem way better on Vanguard and the go to upgrade for any Vanguard unit, so tossing a bunch of Arc Rifles on Rangers seems a smart way to spread out an additional layer of AT throughout the army, while also making our cheapo infantry more of a threat to all those T5/T6 models running around.

**Vineheart01**

To me theyre auto include now. I seem to never NEED those 4-12pts anyway and if i did i can always axe them freely.

So do people think meleebots are any better now that fists got a price cut? im in the middle of magnetizing my bots and i just thought about if i'd ever even use the fists. I think theyre forced to be Stygies for the infiltrate strat (basically gives them a pretty reliable charge if a manip is behind them T1).
Not that i'd forego magnetizing, these things are probably the easiest admech model to magnetize.

**dadamowsky**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
I'm curious, what is everyone thinking about the new 2 point arc rifles? I really like them already on my min sized (5-6 models) Ranger units, even those for screening, but at 2 points they seem like quite a steal considering the +2S, guaranteed -1 AP and the D3 against vehicles (and there a bunch of those). Seems to me like paying the extra 4 points for every min sized ranger units is more than worth it, except for Arquebus units and maybe one unit which only serves to sit on home base objectives.

Calivers still seem way better on Vanguard and the go to upgrade for any Vanguard unit, so tossing a bunch of Arc Rifles on Rangers seems a smart way to spread out an additional layer of AT throughout the army, while also making our cheapo infantry more of a threat to all those T5/T6 models running around.

From the pure points-effectiveness Arcs beat the Calivers vs any target, as a single Caliver can buy you 5,5 Arcs. So in exchange of 2 plasma shots points-wise you can have 10 shots of the lesser brother (in RF). Calivers are however still superior if you don't need those points saved but would rather have a special weapon slot having a solid punch. Personally, I'm dropping Calivers from the Duneriders squads for test running Arcs instead, as my Skitarii serve me best when rapidly advancing on markers, hiding behind a wall scoring me points in ETC - shooting only to finish the job my gunline failed; meaning clearing objective marker from enemy obsecs (thus I don't need my infantry to be killy, but cheap and numerous; but then I'm not playing ITC and I don't bother to think about kill mores). I might pump fewer points from switching in total, as I'm meditating adding Omnispex on my Vanguard squads - Rad Carbines benefits from ignoring cover quite a lot tbh, and that's vs most targets. In yesterday's practice game my 10 Vanguards has popped the BA Captain from full to zero wounds with Rads alone. But that's just another reason for me to drop pricy Calivers (leaving plasma an option for DS goons squad, or Ryza specialists).

**0XFallen**

dadamowsky wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
I'm curious, what is everyone thinking about the new 2 point arc rifles? I really like them already on my min sized (5-6 models) Ranger units, even those for screening, but at 2 points they seem like quite a steal considering the +2S, guaranteed -1 AP and the D3 against vehicles (and there a bunch of those). Seems to me like paying the extra 4 points for every min sized ranger units is more than worth it, except for Arquebus units and maybe one unit which only serves to sit on home base objectives.

Calivers still seem way better on Vanguard and the go to upgrade for any Vanguard unit, so tossing a bunch of Arc Rifles on Rangers seems a smart way to spread out an additional layer of AT throughout the army, while also making our cheapo infantry more of a threat to all those T5/T6 models running around.

From the pure points-effectiveness Arcs beat the Calivers vs any target, as a single Caliver can buy you 5,5 Arcs. So in exchange of 2 plasma shots points-wise you can have 10 shots of the lesser brother (in RF). Calivers are however still superior if you don't need those points saved but would rather have a special weapon slot having a solid punch. Personally, I'm dropping Calivers from the Duneriders squads for test running Arcs instead, as my Skitarii serve me best when rapidly advancing on markers, hiding behind a wall scoring me points in ETC - shooting only to finish the job my gunline failed; meaning clearing objective marker from enemy obsecs (thus I don't need my infantry to be killy, but cheap and numerous; but then I'm not playing ITC and I don't bother to think about kill mores). I might pump fewer points from switching in total, as I'm meditating adding Omnispex on my Vanguard squads - Rad Carbines benefits from ignoring cover quite a lot tbh, and that's vs most targets. In yesterday's practice game my 10 Vanguards has popped the BA Captain from full to zero wounds with Rads alone. But that's just another reason for me to drop pricy Calivers (leaving plasma an option for DS goons squad, or Ryza specialists).

Your math is still wrong, it doesnt work that way.
You have to take the base cost of a ranger as well as substitute the base weaponr's dmg.

**dadamowsky**

I'm not accounting Rangers because there's no way I will ever run an equivalent of the 8 Calivers in Arcs

. The comparison goes only weapon-to-weapon because I will be running 2, maybe 3 Duneriders (if I buy more) with the very same amount of Vanguards inside. So, for me at least, the Skitarii cost is baseline the same in both loadouts. The only difference comes from the Caliver/Arc cost, and the savings I can do on Calivers to buy something else for the army, instead of the 2 plasma shots on a fragile body (and there's a lot of goodies that I can buy for 72 pts difference from 2 boats of Arcs - it's like having a free Dunerider).

**Suzuteo**

They're definitely a nice improvement, but if you have the points, I would do Calivers.

I currently run everything barebones in the Cyle Thompson way because I don't use them to deal damage. Just capture objectives.

**dadamowsky**

Putting the special weapons aside, have anyone tried running 5 Vanguards and 5 Sicarians in a Dunerider? It doesn't have to be Ruststalkers, Infiltrators with tesla could also work. I know I know, we pay for their DS ability - but they rarely come into combat from DS, while transports can carry a W2 model along Vanguards, for the same ratio of model per slot. And they would actually combo very well, Vanguards reducing Toughness of Primaris, while Infiltrators (aside from 5 shots per model) having a S6 tesla and Doctrina for 5+ activation. And the Ld debuff could actually come into play as well - heck, maybe even Metalica stratagem

**dadamowsky**

Models killed (via https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ ) *seems to be wrong when checking it manually, so nevermind.

**TheArchmagos**

^ I do like the idea of running infiltrators in transports actually. I run mine as a unit of 10 in a Mars Auxiliary detachment with Flechette/Taser so they can deepstrike and pump out mortal wounds with Wrath of Mars, but outside of Mars their shooting isn't amazing. And now at 150pts for 10 I was thinking 10 with power swords/stub carbines (as two units of 5) could be a real threat to marines with Invocation of Machine Might. On a side note, I think with their points drop we can look to infiltrators to fill out brigades now.

**Suzuteo**

Infiltrators actually don't Deep Strike very well anymore. Marines pretty much can delete them with Auspex Scan.

It's yet another reason why I now usually just put 2x5 Rangers and an Enginseer into a Drill and drop them somewhere on round two. Secure Recon and maybe a bonus objective if I set it up right in round one. Once the Drill is down, the entire squad is really hard to remove, actually.

That being said, Corpuscarii might be the best Elite choice for Mars transports if you want to shoot. Not only are they more competitively priced now, but Daedalosus allows their shooting to explode on 5+. Given a unit of 10 has 30x attacks, the math works out to be 40x hits on average. Still no AP, which hurts, but S5 is a solid number for killing some Centurions or MEQs/PEQs. They also have got mortal wounds on the charge and 5++/5+++.

**Suzuteo**

So I sort of settled on a mono-Mars mechanized infantry list:

Spoiler:

Plays very consistently. Has well-rounded and durable threats. Is tough for Eldar and Tau to hose with Doom+Jinx or Markerlights. Greyfax provides anti-psyker and combat support, including Terrifying and then locking vehicles in combat.

But I also was tinkering with my old BAO list and have a second option is pretty much the complete opposite; it leans into Gangbusters and denies BGH.

Spoiler:

It's actually a lot closer to what I am used to playing. Ironstriders and Breachers form a wall for the Dakkabots and Grators to shoot from behind. Eight snipers keep characters' heads down. Problem is that this list does not take an alpha well; it's pretty easy for Repulsors, Riptides, etc. to focus down a Cawlstar. Not to mention how vulnerable this list is to Fists. These are all of the reasons why I switched to mechanized.

Jury's still out on whether or not Hector Rex is legal though.

**Alkaline_Hound**

Do people prefer the tank or the walker for shooting? Also how long is the scorpius relative to rhino?
Furthermore has anybody here done a kataphron based list? How did it look?

**Vineheart01**

i think the Skorpius is technically superior to the Dunecrawler in everything except raw durability (invul w/ reroll 1s being the main difference)
But theyre both so cheap you can easily run 3 of each really lol.

**VladimirHerzog**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do people prefer the tank or the walker for shooting? Also how long is the scorpius relative to rhino?
Furthermore has anybody here done a kataphron based list? How did it look?

the big draw to the skorpius is the movement it has, the onager is a tankier platform.

theyre both really good, but the mortars on the skorpius makes it the first tank that i go for a 3-of.

kataphron breachers are good midfield holders if you stick them in cover and this strategy was winning many games before marines became OP and armies adapted to be able to kill centurions (and therefore also breachers).

kataphron destroyers are a big nuke button but are quite fragile, run them in as ryza with plasma (for plasma specialist) or as mars with grav cannons (for wrath of mars).

**The Forgemaster**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do people prefer the tank or the walker for shooting? Also how long is the scorpius relative to rhino?
Furthermore has anybody here done a kataphron based list? How did it look?

My Kataphron List (note it was 2k before CA 2019)
If I had a couple more Skorpius I would have taken out 3 of the Destroyers to put two more boats in.

Spoiler:

**Octovol**

Anyone know why Battlescribe doesn't allow us to give Daedalosus any relics? He's an adeptus mechanicus character so I don't see why not or do the relic assignments have to be <forgeworld>?

**JNAProductions**

He’s a unique character. They can’t take relics.

**Vineheart01**

Named characters across the board cannot take relics, for any faction.
They have their own toys.

**Octovol**

Ah of course, funny how things slip your mind when you're list crafting. Thanks!

**Alkaline_Hound**

Do any of you run knights with your forces? Which knight (including FW) synergizes the best with admech?

**VladimirHerzog**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do any of you run knights with your forces? Which knight (including FW) synergizes the best with admech?

ive personally done worse everytime i included a knight in my lists. Giving the opponent one obvious "must kill" target isnt something i like. I play my admech with the mindset that most of my units are expendable since i have multiple contingencies in place.

That said, i know that before the nerfs, suzuteo had a great experience with the knight styrix

**Vineheart01**

i dont run ITC so i have a couple warglaives around my knight as well, which allows me to use House rules since its not an auxiliary detachment.
Taranis + the 4++ warlord trait + a dedicated fixer kinda makes that knight annoying to remove at a distance. It sacrifices a fair bit of offense so its more a distraction carnifex but it works for me in non-tournament settings. And its still a threat without the Krast shenanigans, just not as big a one.

**Octovol**

Everytime I look at including my Knight Styrix I look at the 3 Disintegrators/onager and ~200pts spare I could have instead of it and wonder why I would bother?

We have so many low cost high powered alternatives knights arent even that much a bullet sponge anymore.

I could take 3 distintegrators with 3d6 missile, 3d6 LoS ignoring energy cannon and 27 stubber shots for like 330 points, thats with 36 wounds at T7 with a 3+ save. A much better balance than a knight that gains T8 and an invuln over drastically reduced firepower.

**MrMoustaffa**

Octovol wrote:
Everytime I look at including my Knight Styrix I look at the 3 Disintegrators/onager and ~200pts spare I could have instead of it and wonder why I would bother?

We have so many low cost high powered alternatives knights arent even that much a bullet sponge anymore.

I could take 3 distintegrators with 3d6 missile, 3d6 LoS ignoring energy cannon and 27 stubber shots for like 330 points, thats with 36 wounds at T7 with a 3+ save. A much better balance than a knight that gains T8 and an invuln over drastically reduced firepower.

Tbf the knight does get melee, but you still have points leftover with admech to cover that niche easily usually.

I've had a lot of fun with warglaives in the past, back before we had the skorpius as a fast tank to move up with my Metallica infantry. I still run them from time to time and the points drop on them is nice, but they're not really a great thing for ITC due to how all the restrictions and missions work. For stuff like maelstrom though they were great. I'd use them to grab objectives, hunt a specific target, or even just as distractions since Raven ones can have up to a 50" threat range with those meltas if you leave them alone. I feel like if you're doing anything other than ITC warglaives and hellverins are probably worth a try. Bare minimum they're a lot of fun and their profile perfectly matches admech armor, helping with saturating that key t7 bracket with invulns to boot.

Really the more I play the more I hate ITC. I get it's a competitive ruleset but the way it's secondaries work really punish any play other than hyper elite armies that kill everything. Armiger's are a good example of that, they're not a bad unit at all in regular games because they can do things besides just kill stuff, they just suck in ITC because you can't really do anything with them without going soup and you can't even get CP for taking them. But that's a rant for another time.

**Vineheart01**

Are robots really they only answer we have to numbers lists?
White Scars are seriously pissing me off in that they just spam bikers and generic marines, i simply dont have enough RoF to kill them through the 2+ cover bs, as everything with AP has crap RoF.
And of course, turn3 = auto lose if they arent crippled in numbers thanks to that +1 damage bs. Legitimately just had my knight go from 20 wounds to dead in 1 round of combat from ~10 tactical marines and a couple moderate characters (not even insane ones, just S6 5-6 attacks).
Gotta love it when a basic troop suddenly threatens a LoW. GJ GW...

**Suzuteo**

@MrMoustaffa
Honestly, I think they could improve the ITC experience A LOT, but they're just dragging their feet.

I would propose:
1) Get rid of all of the kill secondaries. All they do is penalize certain people for bringing certain units. Furthermore, rewarding people for killing in such a killy game widens the gulf between the strong and weak armies.
2) Get rid of the scenarios and make new secondaries out of them. Base objectives on your deployment or just do one in each quadrant and each player places one.
3) Old School is mandatory. You pick two secondaries.
4) Reduce the points cap to 1500.
5) Mandatory chess clocks.

@Vineheart01
I recommend Fulgurites.