Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Slayer-Fan123**

So do we actually leaks on the new Skitarii stuff or what? Speculation and wish listing is fun and I do it all the time. However without concrete stuff to actually talk about maybe the News and Rumors thread would be the best place to discuss that.

Just to be a hypocrite though I really hope that Flyer transport thing counts as Open Topped for shooting and/or charging. That would be a new breath of life for new shenanigans for an army that's, let's be honest, kinda dull now that they've been figured out.

**MrMoustaffa**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we actually leaks on the new Skitarii stuff or what? Speculation and wish listing is fun and I do it all the time. However without concrete stuff to actually talk about maybe the News and Rumors thread would be the best place to discuss that.

Just to be a hypocrite though I really hope that Flyer transport thing counts as Open Topped for shooting and/or charging. That would be a new breath of life for new shenanigans for an army that's, let's be honest, kinda dull now that they've been figured out.

No official leaks, most of the discussion has been going over the photos in great detail and determining what they're armed with. We've been able to get a good read on most of the loadouts of the models, lots of Phosphor weapons for the Vanguard horsemen, some sort of flechette rifle for the batmen, Rangers have some sort of Galvanic carbine and powerswords, etc. But you're probably right, we should probably keep the discussion in another thread. Other than trying to come up with potential tactics that they'll be able to be used for, like the Vangaurd cav making a great addition to a first wave assault to lower enemy T values, there really isn't much else to talk about that is concrete yet. I'd imagine we're at least a month out from proper leaks on any of the wargear and abilities these models have.

As for the flyers, I would give up any hope of Open Topped coming back. That rule is functionally dead for any army but Orks and Eldar to my knowledge, maybe GSC have something too. If the Dunerider didn't get it with a literal open topped compartment, an enclosed hull flyer definitely isn't getting it. You'll take your sponson heavy stubbers and you'll like it young man

Best I can tell, the only way a model gets open topped is if the model is essentially standing on top of the vehicle completely in the open. Anything less and it's closed top.

**Kanluwen**

Some sort of flechette rifle for one build of the batmen. There's two variants, the flamers are another.

**Tastyfish**

Kanluwen wrote:
Some sort of flechette rifle for one build of the batmen. There's two variants, the flamers are another.

Maybe, or they are a squad with special weapons. We really don't know.

**Araablane**

If the game is Admech vs Admech you do not get canticles from each other, right?

If you have a Battle-forged army, units only receive the bonus if every model in their Detachment has this ability.

**punisher357**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we actually leaks on the new Skitarii stuff or what? Speculation and wish listing is fun and I do it all the time. However without concrete stuff to actually talk about maybe the News and Rumors thread would be the best place to discuss that.

Just to be a hypocrite though I really hope that Flyer transport thing counts as Open Topped for shooting and/or charging. That would be a new breath of life for new shenanigans for an army that's, let's be honest, kinda dull now that they've been figured out.

No official leaks, most of the discussion has been going over the photos in great detail and determining what they're armed with. We've been able to get a good read on most of the loadouts of the models, lots of Phosphor weapons for the Vanguard horsemen, some sort of flechette rifle for the batmen, Rangers have some sort of Galvanic carbine and powerswords, etc. But you're probably right, we should probably keep the discussion in another thread. Other than trying to come up with potential tactics that they'll be able to be used for, like the Vangaurd cav making a great addition to a first wave assault to lower enemy T values, there really isn't much else to talk about that is concrete yet. I'd imagine we're at least a month out from proper leaks on any of the wargear and abilities these models have.

As for the flyers, I would give up any hope of Open Topped coming back. That rule is functionally dead for any army but Orks and Eldar to my knowledge, maybe GSC have something too. If the Dunerider didn't get it with a literal open topped compartment, an enclosed hull flyer definitely isn't getting it. You'll take your sponson heavy stubbers and you'll like it young man Best I can tell, the only way a model gets open topped is if the model is essentially standing on top of the vehicle completely in the open. Anything less and it's closed top.

Even the Necron Ghost Ark isn't open topped anymore. The rule has really been left behind, which I think is sad, but that's just my opinion.

**0XFallen**

How do Forgeworld knights do these days, in comparison to GW knights?
Are they really bad, takeable but suboptimal, good?

I was thinking about giving my Imperial knight some upgrades in terms of more converted arms to play other FW variants to spice things up and make them feel more mechanicus rather than imperial.
I was particularly looking at the 2 Questoris knights Styrix and magaera, and the 2 cerastus knights lancer and castigator. ( are the Cerastus knights on the same base and are they a similar size, if not would it make a difference as they are so huge anyway?

**Mariongodspeed**

Until GW re-writes the Forge World Index, the FW knights are overpriced/underpowered. I'm hoping they get better with the new rules.

The Cerastus knights are significantly taller than the questoris knights, but honestly when was the last time you saw a Questoris knight hidden from line of sight behind terrain?

**U02dah4**

The castigator is reasonably competative (Its a souped up warden)
And the moiraxs have their uses

The others are fairly bad

The main reason you don't see them though is the price tag £per point they are more than double the points for a similar power level

**Octovol**

It#s funny because while the Styrix had it's 4++ it was considered competitive, now it doesnt have it, it's not. But the weapons are the same (The siege claw actually improved) and the cost is the same and the reasoning given is that they dont have the firepower.

I guess that's compared to the changing meta at the time but still. I do think they're a little over priced, the styrix and magaera should be comparable to a crusader I think. The only things they gain over regular knights are 5++ in combat and ignore cover.

So all those extra points are being justified for those abilities, I dont think the weapons are actually any better than the standard GW ones, they just have different uses and quirks

**U02dah4**

The styrix was a souped up errant what made it worth the points increase was the survivability when it lost that it had to justify its increase on shooting alone.

**Mariongodspeed**

I am a big fan of the Moirax. Dual lighting locks against Marines, and Graviton Pulsars against Custodes have both been awesome. I like the idea of the claw but I haven't had much success with it.

**Mr. Funktastic**

How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

**Gnarlly**

So with all of the new units AdMech is getting this year, we are very likely to also get a new "2.0" codex. Do you all think a new codex will include datasheets and stratagems for Imperial Knight models, like the 1.0 codex has?

My gut tells me no, that GW will take those units out of the AdMech codex so that we have to buy the separate Imperial Knights codex. But it would be nice if they did include such units and focused more on the synerigies between AdMech and Questor Mechanicus Knights, and left the "Imperial" Knights codex to focus just on the Questor "Imperialis" side.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

I personally like them after the points drops (a squad with the stratagem that adds two to hit is nice), but I would take the other mentioned units first.

**U02dah4**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

It depends on your mission format in ITC they are an instant max of gangbusters to your opponent

Outwith ITC Dunecrawlers are more survivable but once you hit rule of 3 they are ok. The only big advantage they have is the +2 to hit strategem and how usefull that is very much depends on your opponents list

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gnarlly wrote:
So with all of the new units AdMech is getting this year, we are very likely to also get a new "2.0" codex. Do you all think a new codex will include datasheets and stratagems for Imperial Knight models, like the 1.0 codex has?

My gut tells me no, that GW will take those units out of the AdMech codex so that we have to buy the separate Imperial Knights codex. But it would be nice if they did include such units and focused more on the synerigies between AdMech and Questor Mechanicus Knights, and left the "Imperial" Knights codex to focus just on the Questor "Imperialis" side.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

I personally like them after the points drops (a squad with the stratagem that adds two to hit is nice), but I would take the other mentioned units first.

Why would they not put it all in the campaign book thats covering admech and knights

**Gnarlly**

U02dah4 wrote:
Why would they not put it all in the campaign book thats covering admech and knights

The Psychic Awakening campaign book will likely not revise fundamental rules like the Canticles and Forge World rules, which IMO need a serious overhaul. A new codex could/should do that.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Gnarlly wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

I personally like them after the points drops (a squad with the stratagem that adds two to hit is nice), but I would take the other mentioned units first.

Do the other anti tank options really stack more favorably compared to ironstriders? I was under the impression that Neutron Dunecrawlers were too swingy and people are more enamored with the energy cannon over the ferrumite cannon on disintegrators?

**Gnarlly**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Gnarlly wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How are Ironstriders these days? I know they can be formidable when taken with lascannons in groups of 3-4 but they seem pretty fragile even when taken in Stygies and given we have Neutron Laser dunecrawlers, Ferrumite Disintegrators, and Plasma Destroyers, is it still worth it to invest in them as a primary or secondary anti-armor option?

I personally like them after the points drops (a squad with the stratagem that adds two to hit is nice), but I would take the other mentioned units first.

Do the other anti tank options really stack more favorably compared to ironstriders? I was under the impression that Neutron Dunecrawlers were too swingy and people are more enamored with the energy cannon over the ferrumite cannon on disintegrators?

Dunecrawlers with their recent points drop are just so much more durable in comparison; less than 30 additional points to upgrade to a Neutron Dunecrawler from a twin Lascannon Ironstrider and you get more Toughness, almost twice the number of wounds, a better invulnerable save (even better with another Dunecrawler nearby), and no penalty to hit when moving. That being said, a unit of several ironstriders with the +2 to hit stratagem is still a lot of good mobile dakka.

**Colonel Cross**

Unrelated question, fellow seekers of knowledge and efficiency: how do we identify the difference between a heavy stubber and a phosphor/heavy Phosphor blaster? Just still thinking about the loadouts for the Archaeopter.

**Gnarlly**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Unrelated question, fellow seekers of knowledge and efficiency: how do we identify the difference between a heavy stubber and a phosphor/heavy Phosphor blaster? Just still thinking about the loadouts for the Archaeopter.

They both can look quite similar, with most models having a barrel shroud with holes for cooling like a lot of real machine guns. Personally I wouldn't raise any WYSIWYG issues if you said one was either.

**U02dah4**

Gnarlly wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Why would they not put it all in the campaign book thats covering admech and knights

The Psychic Awakening campaign book will likely not revise fundamental rules like the Canticles and Forge World rules, which IMO need a serious overhaul. A new codex could/should do that.

Canticals are strong and the guard one gave custom regiments so thats possible

**JNAProductions**

How are canticles strong?

**ph34r**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Unrelated question, fellow seekers of knowledge and efficiency: how do we identify the difference between a heavy stubber and a phosphor/heavy Phosphor blaster? Just still thinking about the loadouts for the Archaeopter.

The phosphor weapons have a horizontal notch on the end.

**Colonel Cross**

Hey thanks! I was looking at the damn things on my models and couldn't see any difference. It was just staring at me!

**Octovol**

The biggest advantage Ironstriders have is your 3 heavy slots in a battalion are in high demand. 3 disintigrators takes all of one battallions slots.

That +2 to hit on ironstriders isn't the only advantage. they also have the cognis overwatch strat which is a huge huge deterent to people trying to tie them up. You can also advance ironstriders 2d6 and still fire at +1 to hit if you wanna blow 3cp. Your squad of 4 twin lascannon or twin autocannons being able to hit overwatch on 3+ is massive. They are just much less durable at range than a dunecrawler.

Dunecrawlers come last in my heavy choices. I would always pick disintigrators and robots ahead of them.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Octovol wrote:
The biggest advantage Ironstriders have is your 3 heavy slots in a battalion are in high demand. 3 disintigrators takes all of one battallions slots.

That +2 to hit on ironstriders isn't the only advantage. they also have the cognis overwatch strat which is a huge huge deterent to people trying to tie them up. You can also advance ironstriders 2d6 and still fire at +1 to hit if you wanna blow 3cp. Your squad of 4 twin lascannon or twin autocannons being able to hit overwatch on 3+ is massive. They are just much less durable at range than a dunecrawler.

Dunecrawlers come last in my heavy choices. I would always pick disintigrators and robots ahead of them.

I'm starting to find that robots are too expensive and CP hungry for my taste and if I'm not running them as Mars I may as well not bother unless I know I'm coming up against a horde army. Dunecrawlers are relatively around the same tier to me as disintegrators, trading some firepower for durability. I want to experiment running 6 Ryza Plasma Destroyers, plasma vanguard, 2 Neutron Dunecrawlers, and 2 energy cannon disintegrators and if I'm finding that's not enough for my ranged anti armor needs I might look into replacing the Dunecrawlers with 4 lascannon ironstriders.

My sample list:

Spoiler:

**Octovol**

In addition to the devastation caused by the forces of Chaos, there are many other ongoing battles that centre around blackstone, also known as noctilith. This psycho-active material enhances or suppresses psychic phenomena and is in great demand by both xenos and Humanity (especially the Adeptus Mechanicus, at the urging of Belisarius Cawl). The full properties of this mysterious substance are only now becoming apparent, and possession of enough blackstone could lead to the galaxy’s salvation. Or its doom…

Taken from today's PA catchup. What's Cawl up to with all that blackstone then? Anti psykers weapons and armour? Anti psykers fields?

**Colonel Cross**

I believe he is attempting to replicate the Necron Pylons, in/around Cadia, which helped keep the Eye of Terror from expanding.

**U02dah4**

JNAProductions wrote:
How are canticles strong?

If I go 2nd I can have cover for my entire army for three turns irrespective of terrain, two turns if I go first. That is ridiculously strong as a bonus on top of forgeworld/ chapter tactic etc. Many other factions would love that guard, knights, SOB etc.

As someone who plays MSU board control using skitarii and vehicles, the ability to give the whole army reroll 1's to hit when shooting is also really strong. If im going 2nd I will combine this with prepared positions so 3 turns cover with entire army rerolling 1's t1 its strong. (Sure you won't see this as strong if you sit in a small castle round Cawl but thats a function of your build not the strength of the buff).

So at worst I find I get a huge buff for the first 3 turns of the game and for many games the first 3 turns decide the result of the game.

Turn 4 you role for it and 1/3 of the time your getting either of the strong abilities (so over a 6 turn game that's an expectancy of 1 more). Sure the others are nowhere near as strong but they are still options that can occasionally do something. Reroll moral has certainly saved me some models and the 3 CC buffs can help in the right situations, sure most of the time they are weaker but they are a FREE BONUS. Could they be made stronger - yes- Is that the best way to fix the armys weaknesses probably not. Plus GW could just as easily nerf them imagine if they changed the wording to match doctrines for example so no soup in a faction meant to soup with knights

One of our main problems is Rule of 3 and having a limited number of units to pick from, they are fixing that with a host of new options.

the others being arc weapons, non robot phosphor weapons and ruststalkers need a complete rewrite.

**Vineheart01**

a single good canticle out of 6 does not make canticles good.
That ONE is good, canticles as a whole is garbage. I wouldnt even be upset if the "2cp use a canticle you already selected this battle, one use only" strat if all 6 were actually useful.
Global reroll 1s is situational at best, largely unneeded. The other 4 are completely unneeded and worthless.

The fact that 3 of them are focused on being in melee when very little we have actually want melee makes them bad as a whole. I have never, ever "rolled" the 3 melee canticles when i actually wanted them.