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Yeah, that fresh new Graia canticle is looking a little sad right now. If they changed it so the strat also costs 0CP when that canticle is active then it'd be fine IMO.

They did mention that there will be other ways than the strat to get overwatch. I am hoping that, for example, the Agripinaa Staunch Defenders dogma grants all units overwatch on 5+, not just a bonus to the single unit that pays for overwatch via a strat.

Its not like anyone plays Agripinaa anyway. Its certainly not overpowered.

Similarly, I am hoping that the Cognis Overwatch strategey grants overwatch to the selected unit, instead of having to use another strat on it.

Now would be a great time to reintroduce the Onager vehicle equipment "Mindscanner Probe" as a way for granting Overwatch to nearby friendlies....just saying.

Agripinaaa dead you need 12CP just for the strat

U02dah4 wrote:
Agripinaaa dead you need 12CP just for the strat

you get 18 (12 to start a+1/turn). If you seriously want to spend it all on the using the Fresh Converts strat 4 or more times I suppose you could, but that seams ridiculous to me.

Besides, If I am running that many Kataphron breachers I'm running a Data-Horde Forge World with Trans-node power cores. If I am running that many Kataphron Destroyers I am running Mars or Ryza.

They've stated some rules will give it, so it's possible some units may always receive overwatch by rules. So for example I could see Kastelans getting it in protector doctrina since they fire twice and give up movement to do so. It'd seem odd that they're allowed to fire twice but they couldn't fire overwatch. I could also see the cognis rule allowing those weapons to fire overwatch no matter what happens since that's quite literally a weapon where the machine spirit can take over and target by itself.

So probably not the end of the world for admech. I'd think most of our units that could actually make use of overwatch will still get it. Just means stuff like infantry are stuck with melee now.

Good thing all my vanguard alphas have power swords...

U02dah4 wrote:
check the ymdc thread if you want to expand on this but ill summarise its conclusions- yes it is an aura- the cewed artillery aura is from the gun the operated artillery is from the gunner- it either is an aura or it isn't, these are.


the stratagem shuts down auras in the area around the aircraft. NOT the auras projected by models within range of the aircraft.
wholey within auras don't effect models partially overlapping with the strategems aura
not wholey within auras still effect models unless their whole base is covered by the strategem



So if the gun is completely overlapped by the planes aura neither aura effect it and it cant fire but it is not removed

If the gun aura is active (atleast part of its base is not covered by the strategem) but the gunner is wholey within the stratagems range. then the aura doesnt apply in the area around the gunner and when the guns aura can't find it it activates and kills the gun

If the gun is completely covered by the strategem but the gunner is not. the gun is not removed as crewed artillery aura is not in effected but it cant fire because the gunners aura disableing operated artillery cant find the gun

I am not denying that "crewed artillery" is not an Aura.

I was saying you have which model the Aura exists on incorrect. The TFC is removed if there are no <Techmarine Gunner> units within 6", that means the aura is on the cannon.

You would never have to remove a TFC due to the strat: the Aura Ability removes a gun if there is no gunner nearby(or crew in other units' cases), shutting down the Aura simply removes the requirement to remove the gun.

For Firing the gun, that aura is provided by the gunner/crew; so the strat on just the gun, still allows the gun to fire.

The Strat will not kill Crewed Artillery in any way, and will only stop the guns from firing when affecting gunners/crew.

Yawn yes the aura is on the cannon

yes The TFC is removed if there are no <Techmarine Gunner> units within 6",


NO

The stratagem stops the aura functioning within 6" of the flyer


So imagine a situation where the Aura is still running as the gun isn't covered. but the techpriest is completely within 6" of the flyer

The gun isn't covered so its aura is still active consequently The TFC is removed if there are no <Techmarine Gunner> units within 6",


The guns aura apply's however it doesn't look within the area within 6" of the aircraft as the aura is disabled within that range

so the guns aura cant find the techpriest and the gun is removed


again I will note the strategem doesn't stop models projecting auras. It stops the aura's affecting the area within 6" of the aircraft which is what I'm assuming is confusing you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
They've stated some rules will give it, so it's possible some units may always receive overwatch by rules. So for example I could see Kastelans getting it in protector doctrina since they fire twice and give up movement to do so. It'd seem odd that they're allowed to fire twice but they couldn't fire overwatch. I could also see the cognis rule allowing those weapons to fire overwatch no matter what happens since that's quite literally a weapon where the machine spirit can take over and target by itself.

So probably not the end of the world for admech. I'd think most of our units that could actually make use of overwatch will still get it. Just means stuff like infantry are stuck with melee now.

you can still 1CP them with there volume of firepower it would be worth it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mariongodspeed wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Agripinaaa dead you need 12CP just for the strat

you get 18 (12 to start a+1/turn). If you seriously want to spend it all on the using the Fresh Converts strat 4 or more times I suppose you could, but that seams ridiculous to me.

Besides, If I am running that many Kataphron breachers I'm running a Data-Horde Forge World with Trans-node power cores. If I am running that many Kataphron Destroyers I am running Mars or Ryza.

I have run Agrippina at a number of events. Fresh converts is what adds value to Agrippina. 4 Times was my average but I had capacity for more and used it sometimes

Why would it not be good to bring back 4-5 breachers a turn for 4 turns? It partially makes up for giveing up stygies durability

The problem is that's not 18 because:

Not all games will go to turn 6,

CP costs are frontloaded (having 18 is completely different to 12+1PT looking at WLtrait strats at the moment but also extra detachments because you probably want a little admech soup supporting your aggripinaa and those will require more CP because virtually everything worth souping has a stratagem cost to use effectively. So the reality is that you probably spend 6ish either pregame or T1

Ok I finally get my 6th bonus CP and can spend 3 CP to bring back my breachers turn 6 (if they're even alive) (which is pretty worthless because you don't get value from it)

And that's before we now have to pay CP to overwatch

U02dah4 wrote:
Yawn yes the aura is on the cannon

yes The TFC is removed if there are no <Techmarine Gunner> units within 6",


NO

The stratagem stops the aura functioning within 6" of the flyer


So imagine a situation where the Aura is still running as the gun isn't covered. but the techpriest is completely within 6" of the flyer

The gun isn't covered so its aura is still active consequently The TFC is removed if there are no <Techmarine Gunner> units within 6",


The guns aura apply's however it doesn't look within the area within 6" of the aircraft as the aura is disabled within that range

so the guns aura cant find the techpriest and the gun is removed


again I will note the strategem doesn't stop models projecting auras. It stops the aura's affecting the area within 6" of the aircraft which is what I'm assuming is confusing you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
They've stated some rules will give it, so it's possible some units may always receive overwatch by rules. So for example I could see Kastelans getting it in protector doctrina since they fire twice and give up movement to do so. It'd seem odd that they're allowed to fire twice but they couldn't fire overwatch. I could also see the cognis rule allowing those weapons to fire overwatch no matter what happens since that's quite literally a weapon where the machine spirit can take over and target by itself.

So probably not the end of the world for admech. I'd think most of our units that could actually make use of overwatch will still get it. Just means stuff like infantry are stuck with melee now.

you can still 1CP them with there volume of firepower it would be worth it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mariongodspeed wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Agripinaaa dead you need 12CP just for the strat

you get 18 (12 to start a+1/turn). If you seriously want to spend it all on the using the Fresh Converts strat 4 or more times I suppose you could, but that seams ridiculous to me.

Besides, If I am running that many Kataphron breachers I'm running a Data-Horde Forge World with Trans-node power cores. If I am running that many Kataphron Destroyers I am running Mars or Ryza.

I have run Agrippina at a number of events. Fresh converts is what adds value to Agrippina. 4 Times was my average but I had capacity for more and used it sometimes

Why would it not be good to bring back 4-5 breachers a turn for 4 turns? It partially makes up for giveing up stygies durability

The problem is that's not 18 because:

Not all games will go to turn 6,

CP costs are frontloaded (having 18 is completely different to 12+1PT looking at WLtrait strats at the moment but also extra detachments because you probably want a little admech soup supporting your aggripinaa and those will require more CP because virtually everything worth souping has a stratagem cost to use effectively. So the reality is that you probably spend 6ish either pregame or T1

Ok I finally get my 6th bonus CP and can spend 3 CP to bring back my breachers turn 6 (if they're even alive) (which is pretty worthless because you don't get value from it)

And that's before we now have to pay CP to overwatch

Except, there is still a techmarine gunner(or whatever crew) within 6" of the active aura that would remove the TFC(or whatever crewed artillery).

Crewed Artillery Aura Ability is a check: is there "X" unit within range? If yes, no effect; if no, remove the crewed artillery gun. The EFCM strat simply inactivates the Aura abilities of enemy units within range(in this case, the ability of the crew to fire the artillery), it does not change, or remove anything else about the units under the effect.

No, it will never remove crewed artillery guns.

There isn't one within 6" because the portion of the aura in which the which the techmarine gunner is standing has been removed by the strategem

Crew aura is there X unit within the aura answer = NO so remove the crewed artillery gun


The exact wording of is "Until the start of your next turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit."

So the Aura still applies but has no effect within 6" of the aircraft

It is not - models within 6" of this unit have no aura abilities

The exact wording of the thunderfire is

If at any point there are no friendly <chapter> techmarine gunner units within 6" of a thunderfire cannon, that thunderfire cannon is destroyed


So combineing them

If at any point there are no friendly <chapter> techmarine gunner units within 6" of a thunderfire cannon (minus the area of the aura that has no effect (6" of that aircraft)." (, that thunderfire cannon is destroyed



That's how it works - I'm clearly not going to convince you of that so I would advise you consult the existing thread or create a new specific one in YMDC before it comes up in an actual game. Rather than clogging up the admech thread

U02dah4 wrote:
There isn't one within 6" because the portion of the aura in which the which the techmarine gunner is standing has been removed by the strategem

Crew aura is there X unit within the aura answer = NO so remove the crewed artillery gun

That's how it works - I'm clearly not going to convince you of that so I would advise you consult the existing thread or create a new specific one in YMDC before it comes up in an actual game. Rather than clogging up the admech thread

But the WHOLE RULE is shut down. So while it doesn't detect a Techmarine Gunner (or whatever crew) within 6", it also doesn't have to remove itself, since that's part of the rule that's shut down.

I've made the above as clear as i can

no the whole aura is not shut down

only the area the aura's effect within 6" of the aircraft

The exact wording of is "Until the start of your next turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit."
It is not - enemy models within 6" of this unit have no aura abilities

U02dah4 wrote:
I've made the above as clear as i can

no the whole aura is not shut down

only the area the aura's effect within 6" of the aircraft

The exact wording of is "Until the start of your next turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit."
It is not - enemy models within 6" of this unit have no aura abilities

Distinction without a difference.

Is removing a model an effect?

theres a clear difference

enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit - refers to an area of the tabletop

enemy models within 6" of this unit have no aura abilities or
The aura abilities of enemy models within 6" of this unit have no effect - would refer to the enemy model issueing the aura - preventing that model issueing its auras outwith the 6" of the aircraft if they themselves were within it

Take something simple an SM cpt reroll 1 aura imagine its 5" from the aircraft

under

enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" of that unit -the area towards the aircraft would no longer benefit from the aura however the area outside aircraft's aura is still benefiting, because the CPT is still issuing the aura only the effect is disabled within 6" of the aircraft under the other two nothing would benefit because the cpt aura was dissabled.

Conversely a CPT 7" from the aircraft will have a big section of its aura dissabled dispite itself not being in range


If at any point there are no friendly <chapter> techmarine gunner units within 6" of a thunderfire cannon, that thunderfire cannon is destroyed

Yes the cannon is destroyed is an effect - therefore if the cannon is covered by the aircrafts aura the aura doesn't apply and the cannon would not be removed

however if it is not within aura range but the techmarine is then the aura is still applying it just has no effect on the area the techmarine is standing in and doesn't locate him and applies its effect as if he wasnt there

The wording of the strat itself is unclear, and there's also that very unfortunate typo in it that shows they didn't proofread it.

When it says "enemy models [sic] aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6" " it is not clear whether this means that the ability has no effect - i.e. the aura is effectively removed from the datasheet if the model generating it is within 6" - or whether it means that the aura itself is suppressed in a 6" bubble around the copter, but is still projected by the model, and still in effect on anything not within 6" of the copter.

You can argue it both ways, but I don't think it's very convincing to say it is clearly one or the other. It's very easy to see the argument for either position based on the grammar of the sentence.

ive just been 100% ignoring any arguments about it for that very reason.

The rule is not defined right. And theres no way it removes guns if the gunner "isnt there anymore" because that hurts marines and posterchildren cannot be hurt by bad rule interaction that severely.

There is no point in arguing over it.

You are not clear, you are speaking nonsense.

The aura is a check: if there are no Artillery crew units within 6", remove the gun.

There is, factually, an artillery crew unit within 6". The strat does nothing to the keywords of any units.

So the strat on just the gun would have 1 of 2 effects:

1) does nothing, because there is a crew unit within range anyway

2) does nothing because the aura that is shutdown is what would remove the gun.

Conversely the strat on the crew would only have 1 effect: the crew cannot fire the gun.

The gun is never destroyed/removed by the strat.

This is not just a TFC thing either, Mek guns have the same rule, as does FW AM batteries.

Is the check an aura - yes

If the check is an aura then the check doesnt occur within 6" of the aircraft. That is all. not a binary on off of the whole aura.

And yes it works the same with mek guns

Hey all, I painted the Alpha of my new Serberys Sulphurhounds, figured you'd be interested in seeing the results, in my Stygies VIII scheme as usual. Don't hesitate to follow the link in my signature for more Stygies VIII !

Nice

U02dah4 wrote:
Is the check an aura - yes

If the check is an aura then the check doesnt occur within 6" of the aircraft. That is all. not a binary on off of the whole aura.

And yes it works the same with mek guns

And if the check does not occur, then the guns are not removed.

The guns are removed if the check finds no crew within range. No check, no removal.

It is a simple if,then rule; those are exactly binary, and also yes it turns off the whole of the aura portion of the rule.

Quoting the relevant bit of the rule:

crewed artillery wrote: If at any point there are no friendly <CHAPTER> Techmarine Gunner units within 6" of a Thunderfire Cannon, that Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed

The Aura for the check is on the cannon, and its effect causes the destruction of the cannon. EFCM causes auras to have no effect.

The only thing that I cannot understand, is how you think that it causes the destruction of the gun when that is the effect and the strange claims that it just removes the ability to check.

No. You will never lose artillery to the strat.

Efcm causes auras to have no effect within 6" of the aircraft not to have no effect outwith that range

"Until the start of your next turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6"

Enemy models aura abilities - have no effect - whilst within 6"

Not the aura abilities of enemy models within 6" have no effect

The targets the aura not the model

Yes the check is binary

But if the gunner is within 6" the aura has no effect and so the gun gets removed as the rest of the aura is still checking



Saying that is the effect - when the RAW as quoted above contradicts you proves you wrong.

Y’all are aware there’s no way in hell that your flappy copters will be aura-vaping TFCs in any half serious tourney ever, right? Ok then, moving on.

Yep thats how it works of course adequate screening prevents this.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Overwatch is a 1cp stratagem now.
That....kinda royally messes with things. And greatly concerns me. Those perks that boost overwatch were never considered amazing in the first place and now theyre even less enticing as they cost cp to actually benefit from.

i'm fine with limiting overwatch to promote melee heavy armies multi-charging instead of daisy-chaining, but did it have to actually cost a cp?

A) day 1 errata likely changes things around
B) stratagem isn't only way to overwatch. Some Units will have it as ability as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
Agripinaaa dead you need 12CP just for the strat

Seeing you can use it max length of game so what 6-7 max(?)that is exaggeration.
And you have 18 in 6 turn game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Y’all are aware there’s no way in hell that your flappy copters will be aura-vaping TFCs in any half serious tourney ever, right? Ok then, moving on.

Naah he will insist it does never minding removing aura also removes removal part so even if you go it's aura you also remove effect of removing.

But him being him he insists otherwise even if gw yells at his ear otherwise

The aura is not removed except within 6".

No i follow the rules if gw says it works different or its not what they intended at that point it changes but untill then it works as it is written you cant pick and choose what rules are intended.

What i don't do is accept the assertion it doesn't work that way with no RAW evidence.

Not sure this is a meaningful change? I cant remember the exact wording of the original, just the number of non-vehicle/monster things is new isn't it?

There was no requirement for proximity to friendlies, your character could be standing alone in an empty field in full view, but so long as your opponent couldn't get closer to them than any of your other units, they couldn't target them.

U02dah4 wrote:
Efcm causes auras to have no effect within 6" of the aircraft not to have no effect outwith that range

"Until the start of your next turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect whilst within 6"

Enemy models aura abilities - have no effect - whilst within 6"

Not the aura abilities of enemy models within 6" have no effect

The targets the aura not the model

Yes the check is binary

But if the gunner is within 6" the aura has no effect and so the gun gets removed as the rest of the aura is still checking



Saying that is the effect - when the RAW as quoted above contradicts you proves you wrong.

What is the effect of the Aura?

Destroying the cannon ig there are no gunner unita within 6".

You really are trying to argue nonsense.

The effect of the aura is the If-Then, it does not apply if either or both units are under the strat: the strat never destroys crewed artillery. The only thing with such units that the strat can shut down is the Crew's aura to fire the artillery, of the crew is in range of the strat.