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Thing is marines are supposed to be the defacto average, not great not bad, the baseline. Historically you compare every choice to a standard machine choice to determine its overall balance. Feels like we cant really do that any more as Primaris are clearly more like custodes now than regular marines.

Thats because GW wants you to buy all the primaris - so in January they can nerf them hard blaming performance data

Yeah they're supposed to be the jack-of-all-trades of armies, being a generalist faction that can do everything well enough and have lists that can be built around a theme. Other factions are supposed to be more specialists in their own field. Aeldari with Psykers, Death Guard for attrition, Astra Militarum for mechanised warfare, Tyranids for swarms of melee units... Problem is when they wrote the codex 2.0 of Marines and decided they should just be better than everyone in every field and the rest can be a NPC faction.

And this really breaks the game for me, now that I'm calculating the efficiency/lethality of an AdMech unit I feel forced to compare it to MEQ and so the results disappoint me all the time.

By the way if that's interesting to anyone, a barebones Sulphurhounds unit vs a MEQ does the following amount of damage (units are Wounds):

Shooting: 2,62 with flamers + 0,66 with pistols + 0,22 with blast pistol = 3,5 wounds
Melee: 0,66 for normal riders + 0,55 for Alpha = 1,21 wounds

So a round of shooting + a successful charge on an Intercessor squad results in a whopping 4,71 wounds off on average. 57 pts of Sulphurhounds kills 34 pts of Intercessors this way (with 8th values).

If you compare yourself to the best performing faction shocker you don't perform as well.

If you select one of the more efficient units from the best performing faction (thats in the majority of competative lists) and compare it to one of our weaker units it doesn't perform as well (I'm astounded) we are not marines so don't compare as one

We have 3 options

Cult mechanicus - aka the castle - Hope for planet bowling ball take 3/4 nice new Wl traits sit in a circle round cawl and daedalosus or a stygies dominous and attempt to shoot the enemy to oblivion with massed overlapped buff sure our unitd might not be as efficient on their own but when you add+1 to hit and reroll misses and add extra AP and shots on 6's surprisingly efficiency improves substantially its therefore not a simple A VS B comparison.


Skittari - the horde - given canticles and our army having cover for 2-3 turns irrespective of terrain our infantry are more durable for their pts than SM. tons of vanguard on an objective are quite tough to shift so why not play the objectives and survive - we have raiders to snipe characters and delay the enemy or grab midfield objectives and corpuscarii/hoplites got hugely buffed between engine war and reserves. - let SM shoot us off the table but if we have racked up enough VP we still win. Its about board control with this list not shooting power


Knights + Mechanicus - primarily knights but supported by our best units to score some objectives and buff some of the strongest units in the game. Mechanicus are a force multiplier for the knights repairing them granting canticles and cheaply securing backfield objectives while the knights move on your opponents. Again the mechanicus portion adds a lot of value - but the enginseer repairing a knight isnt best measured by the awesome shooting of its las pistol

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah they're supposed to be the jack-of-all-trades of armies, being a generalist faction that can do everything well enough and have lists that can be built around a theme. Other factions are supposed to be more specialists in their own field. Aeldari with Psykers, Death Guard for attrition, Astra Militarum for mechanised warfare, Tyranids for swarms of melee units... Problem is when they wrote the codex 2.0 of Marines and decided they should just be better than everyone in every field and the rest can be a NPC faction.

And this really breaks the game for me, now that I'm calculating the efficiency/lethality of an AdMech unit I feel forced to compare it to MEQ and so the results disappoint me all the time.

By the way if that's interesting to anyone, a barebones Sulphurhounds unit vs a MEQ does the following amount of damage (units are Wounds):

Shooting: 2,62 with flamers + 0,66 with pistols + 0,22 with blast pistol = 3,5 wounds
Melee: 0,66 for normal riders + 0,55 for Alpha = 1,21 wounds

So a round of shooting + a successful charge on an Intercessor squad results in a whopping 4,71 wounds off on average. 57 pts of Sulphurhounds kills 34 pts of Intercessors this way (with 8th values).

Did you take into account the -T debuff from Sulphurhounds? It is a bit of a shame neither of the Serbyrus are particularly good in melee, Sulphurhounds ought to be better but raiders actually have better melee weapons! Though both are held back by the fact that Skitarii hit on 4s in combat, which is also what makes Robots not worth their points as well.

Octovol wrote:
Did you take into account the -T debuff from Sulphurhounds? It is a bit of a shame neither of the Serbyrus are particularly good in melee, Sulphurhounds ought to be better but raiders actually have better melee weapons! Though both are held back by the fact that Skitarii hit on 4s in combat, which is also what makes Robots not worth their points as well.

Yeah counted it in melee, with the custom Forge World we might make it so in shooting too with the 3" debuff aura but that's too specific. I'll calculate it either way, so considering they're within 3" with the buffed Irradiation:

Shooting: 3,5 with flamers + 0,88 with pistols + 0,22 with blast pistol = 4,6 wounds, so an increase of 1,1 wounds (31% more) compared to without Irradiation against MEQ.

A 31% boost is great but sending them within 3" of their target will be quite difficult most of the time, even if they charge after on average they'll kill almost 3 Intercessors (4,6 + 1,21 = 5,81w).

Yeah I don't understand either why it isn't the Sulphurhounds that have the cavalry sabres. But the AdMech codex is weird like that. Making Fistelans hit on 4+ with no way to reroll better than 1s to Hit and to Wound for example. I wish they'll update their datasheet in the next codex to make them more viable with the Fists, just making them 3+ to Hit would go a long way.

You do not have to use the 3" extension(that is so the rest of your army can hit harder): the flamers are pistols as well.

That is what makes the sulpherhounds a counter-charge unit. Play them offensively or defensively, and as harassers; they are not the best in the fight phase but still do full potential shooting while engaged(and full -1T damage in shooting while engaged).

Realizing all of the above is what made me decide that having a unit of them is more than acceptable, but I still will not give them the blast carbine.

even if its free i wouldnt give them that blast carbine. It contradicts what that unit is doing.

They just need a rule like the Orks have on their buggies, where they can shoot their pistols in addition to any other weapon. If I lose one pistol and like 14 points to gain those 4 S5 shots then that's alright IMO.

You only lose 1 pistol on one model for taking the blast carbine. If you're Metallica or take the rugged explorers custom Dogma you can still advance and fire at no penalty from range.

Even then you gain 5 shots at str 5 ap-1 over 2 at str 4 and D6 at str 4 and at a greater range. So when firing into combat you lose 1 str 4 pistol shot. But at range your probably better off with the carbine.

Well the model with the carbine can't "fire" the "horse" either, since that's also a pistol.

Didnt even think about that part but yeah, the carbine loses the flamer too. And thats the real stinker because thats a good flamer.

Yeah I built one with the carbine because of rule of cool (they're really nice-looking) but only after did I realise how I hindered myself rules-wise. Not only does it cost 15 pts, but I can't shoot it in CC and have to forgo my other pistol (that I pay 1 pt for) and my flamer to use it. Only nice to get a pot shot at a distant target, if you're within 8" you'll always prefer the flamer + pistol.

But I intended on buying a second box to make a unit of 5 so I'll have some flexibility if I want to play a more competitive game. Otherwise it stays this way for friendly games.

EDIT: I hope they won't do a complete 180° with the new point costs concerning our new units. I think the Raiders are a bit too cheap but their retail price evens that out for me haha! But their cheapness and straight-forward use make them a neat addition in our army I think. I don't plan on buying them yet because they're so cheap I'd do like 2 units of 5 or something like that and that'd be costly.

Its 5 str 5 shots at 18" range, or 5 str 4 at 8", and 5 shots at str 4 in combat. Or 6 str 4 shots at at 8" and 6 str 4 shots in combat.

It's not going to end up 15pts, that's a mistake confused with the HPB. It might be more than the 1pt you pay for a standard phosphor pistol, but it adds flexibility at very little cost.

Octovol wrote:
Its 5 str 5 shots at 18" range, or 5 str 4 at 8", and 5 shots at str 4 in combat. Or 6 str 4 shots at at 8" and 6 str 4 shots in combat.

It's not going to end up 15pts, that's a mistake confused with the HPB. It might be more than the 1pt you pay for a standard phosphor pistol, but it adds flexibility at very little cost.

What? it is 15 pts for 4 shots @ 24"(well, 14pts because you are not taking the second pistol). But you are either deciding that you want to be >24" away from enemies at the start of your turn/the game, or you are planning to be woefully out of position at multiple points in the game.

The 5 Str5 shots is @12".

You get 1 Str5 and 4 str4 @12 with all pistols.

And within 8" or in combat you get 1 Str5 plus 4 str4 plus 3d6 str4 with all pistols.

Those are all better than 4 str5 @24"(starting up to 36" away), and then losing a Str4 in melee, where you want your rad-saturated riders to be(wounding MEQs on a 3+ with all your shots).

Oh, and cover now applies in melee, so the extra str4 ap-1 pistol still helps.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Its 5 str 5 shots at 18" range, or 5 str 4 at 8", and 5 shots at str 4 in combat. Or 6 str 4 shots at at 8" and 6 str 4 shots in combat.

It's not going to end up 15pts, that's a mistake confused with the HPB. It might be more than the 1pt you pay for a standard phosphor pistol, but it adds flexibility at very little cost.

What? it is 15 pts for 4 shots @ 24"(well, 14pts because you are not taking the second pistol). But you are either deciding that you want to be >24" away from enemies at the start of your turn/the game, or you are planning to be woefully out of position at multiple points in the game.

The 5 Str5 shots is @12".

You get 1 Str5 and 4 str4 @12 with all pistols.

And within 8" or in combat you get 1 Str5 plus 4 str4 plus 3d6 str4 with all pistols.

Those are all better than 4 str5 @24"(starting up to 36" away), and then losing a Str4 in melee, where you want your rad-saturated riders to be(wounding MEQs on a 3+ with all your shots).

Oh, and cover now applies in melee, so the extra str4 ap-1 pistol still helps.

Its a mistake. The 15pts listed is likely meant for the HPB, we've been over this a gazillion times by now. It won't stick. As soon as there's an faq or errata HPB will go back up to being 15pts and the mistakenly labelled phosphor blast carbine will go down to whatever they originally intended. Could be 0, could be 1pt but its never going to be 15pts.

My bad, blast carbine is only 4 shots at 24" confused with another weapon.

I'm only comparing per regular hound because only one model in 3 can take a carbine and that's what you'd compare it against. The alpha only gets that 1 blast shot anyway regardless.

No Carbine - For that Hound at 8" you're getting 2 + 1D6 (4 average) str 4 shots whether in combat or not. Or 2 str 4 shots at 12".

With Carbine - For that Hound at 24" you get 4 str 5 shots. At 8" you're on average getting 1 less shot with 1 + 1D6(4) at str 4 or you can still fire your carbine's 4 str 5 shots. In combat, you still get your 1 + 1D6(4) pistol shots at str 4.

You're still going to fire your pistols in combat whether the model has a carbine or not, you just get one less shot if you have the carbine. But WITH the carbine you have the OPTION to fire from much further away with stronger shots for minimal cost.

That might not suit you, but spending whatever the points cost the carbine ends up being to trade a single shot in combat for 4 stronger shots at a much greater range seems like a good trade to me.

Just so we're clear. Nobody is spending 14 more points for the carbine. Thats a mistake. Just like the zero point HPB is a mistake. Its surely not going to be more than the cost of an arc rifle though.

Not a lot of people were going to play between Engine War and 9th anyway, I don't think they'll bother with a FAQ for the point changes, only for the other questions.

But yeah 15 pts is way too much haha.

Octovol wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Its 5 str 5 shots at 18" range, or 5 str 4 at 8", and 5 shots at str 4 in combat. Or 6 str 4 shots at at 8" and 6 str 4 shots in combat.

It's not going to end up 15pts, that's a mistake confused with the HPB. It might be more than the 1pt you pay for a standard phosphor pistol, but it adds flexibility at very little cost.

What? it is 15 pts for 4 shots @ 24"(well, 14pts because you are not taking the second pistol). But you are either deciding that you want to be >24" away from enemies at the start of your turn/the game, or you are planning to be woefully out of position at multiple points in the game.

The 5 Str5 shots is @12".

You get 1 Str5 and 4 str4 @12 with all pistols.

And within 8" or in combat you get 1 Str5 plus 4 str4 plus 3d6 str4 with all pistols.

Those are all better than 4 str5 @24"(starting up to 36" away), and then losing a Str4 in melee, where you want your rad-saturated riders to be(wounding MEQs on a 3+ with all your shots).

Oh, and cover now applies in melee, so the extra str4 ap-1 pistol still helps.

Its a mistake. The 15pts listed is likely meant for the HPB, we've been over this a gazillion times by now. It won't stick. As soon as there's an faq or errata HPB will go back up to being 15pts and the mistakenly labelled phosphor blast carbine will go down to whatever they originally intended. Could be 0, could be 1pt but its never going to be 15pts.

My bad, blast carbine is only 4 shots at 24" confused with another weapon.

I'm only comparing per regular hound because only one model in 3 can take a carbine and that's what you'd compare it against. The alpha only gets that 1 blast shot anyway regardless.

No Carbine - For that Hound at 8" you're getting 2 + 1D6 (4 average) str 4 shots whether in combat or not. Or 2 str 4 shots at 12".

With Carbine - For that Hound at 24" you get 4 str 5 shots. At 8" you're on average getting 1 less shot with 1 + 1D6(4) at str 4 or you can still fire your carbine's 4 str 5 shots. In combat, you still get your 1 + 1D6(4) pistol shots at str 4.

You're still going to fire your pistols in combat whether the model has a carbine or not, you just get one less shot if you have the carbine. But WITH the carbine you have the OPTION to fire from much further away with stronger shots for minimal cost.

That might not suit you, but spending whatever the points cost the carbine ends up being to trade a single shot in combat for 4 stronger shots at a much greater range seems like a good trade to me.

Just so we're clear. Nobody is spending 14 more points for the carbine. Thats a mistake. Just like the zero point HPB is a mistake. Its surely not going to be more than the cost of an arc rifle though.

You are missing the point.

Even 5 pts is too many for a single mid-ranged gun in the unit, that has no synergy with the rest of the model that it is on, let alone the unit. This is the same reason you do not see a 5-man Tac quad with a p-fist sgt and a lascannon. This unit wants and needs to get in close to the enemy unit(s), If you need the longer ranged gun, then you have already been making tactical errors.

that wouldnt stop GW from pricing it like that anyway, only looking at the gun in a vacuum and not whats using it as well as the gun itself to determine its cost.
That was the issue with pretty much all optional upgrades that you couldnt put on the entire unit in previous editions. No matter how good the gun was, it almost always wanted a different role than the rest of the unit so it sucked.
Its less of an issue now because the only way it happens is if mobility or in the case of sulphurhounds access to all your weapons at once comes into play.

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah I built one with the carbine because of rule of cool (they're really nice-looking) but only after did I realise how I hindered myself rules-wise. Not only does it cost 15 pts, but I can't shoot it in CC and have to forgo my other pistol (that I pay 1 pt for) and my flamer to use it. Only nice to get a pot shot at a distant target, if you're within 8" you'll always prefer the flamer + pistol.

But I intended on buying a second box to make a unit of 5 so I'll have some flexibility if I want to play a more competitive game. Otherwise it stays this way for friendly games.

EDIT: I hope they won't do a complete 180° with the new point costs concerning our new units. I think the Raiders are a bit too cheap but their retail price evens that out for me haha! But their cheapness and straight-forward use make them a neat addition in our army I think. I don't plan on buying them yet because they're so cheap I'd do like 2 units of 5 or something like that and that'd be costly.

Not that it necessarily helps now, but I modeled one of my Sulphurhounds with the "rifle in holster" bit from the sprue meant for the Raiders, then took one of the hands from the Dunerider kit (it has both a left and right hand that 'rests' ) and it's a perfect in between for me. If I run a carbine, I can point out the guy has the carbine at the side and only one pistol in hand; if I don't run carbine, well the carbine isn't out so whose to say.

It satisfies my local players, no idea how particular a major tourney would be about it.

No, I get it. Sulphurhounds have mainly short-range and in-combat options and you're saying to lose a single-shot pistol in order to gain the option for it to shoot more, stronger, shots at greater range goes against the purpose and role of the unit. I'm saying I disagree, it's one shot lost; A shot you may rarely even get to take given how squishy they are. A unit of 5 or less needs to survive combat in our turn, psychic in opponents turn, potentially shooting in their turn (depending on what you charged) and combat in their turn before they get to shoot in combat. That's if you play to their strengths and get to charge them instead of being charged. Hardly a compromise at all. And certainly not a huge tactical faux pa to lose 1 out of 6 shots within 8" on 1 unit to gain options at a greater distance where the unit otherwise does nothing. It's still capable of fulfilling its role as short-range skirmisher that can tag things in combat without really losing any effectiveness. Not everything has to be so black and white. But if that 1 shot really breaks the master plan then I guess it's not worth it. I like options and flexibility.

Though I confess it slipped my mind that a phosphor blast pistol is currently 5pts, so the carbine version by all rights should be more. Though the blast pistol isn't worth those 5pts anyway, there's no way +1 str is worth 4pts. If that carbIne turns out to be 15pts then I'd have to reconsider and concede its not a good choice. But if I were planning on taking Sulphurhounds; Unlike raiders, they're not all-but-guaranteed to be useful first turn, do nothing outside of 8-12" and are a tad too expensive to use for screening, so having those 4 shots before they get in range would be a welcome addition and gives them some options. Being one of our fastest units they can also get to and sit on an objective if I need them to and still have something to do.

I just need them to do more to justify their increased cost over raiders and their decreased options over Sterylizors.

I guess they're a decent option for spending that 1cp on Overwatch, but the 1cp option Raiders have beats overwatch any day and Sterylizors do the same thing at max charge distance with more utility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh did anyone notice the lack of servo-skull on the Primaris Techmarine? It could still be something non-admech, but at least the Techmarine is out of the running.

This is my current list:

Alas, I still have not had an opportunity to play it because of the ongoing shelter-in-place here in the States.

But yeah, Boat spam with Ironstriders instead of Crawlers. I actually do think that they are superior now, since you save 3 CP, and you can use said CP to melt vehicles on turn 1.

How do you get 4 HQs in a bat?

Ah damn. I thought the maximum was five. I guess I am only taking the Magos WLT then. A pity. To be honest, I am not liking how I have to cram everything into one detachment.

EDIT: On second thought, I have enough points to fit in a Manipulus. A friend has been telling me that a Manipulus with the Artisan WLT is great value. I think I will try it out.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Ah damn. I thought the maximum was five. I guess I am only taking the Magos WLT then. A pity. To be honest, I am not liking how I have to cram everything into one detachment.

EDIT: On second thought, I have enough points to fit in a Manipulus. A friend has been telling me that a Manipulus with the Artisan WLT is great value. I think I will try it out.

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 2000

HQ - 305
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Static Psalm-Code
1x Daedalosus
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Fabrications of the Artisan (-1 CP)

Troop - 380
4x Kataphron Breacher
4x Kataphron Breacher
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger

Elite - 280
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest

Transport - 292
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Fast Attack - 300
5x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon

Heavy Support - 333
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Flyer - 110
1x Archaeopter Fusilave - Command Uplink

Total: 2000 points
11 CP

You could always stick the WLT on a Datasmith instead of a 4th HQ.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Ah damn. I thought the maximum was five. I guess I am only taking the Magos WLT then. A pity. To be honest, I am not liking how I have to cram everything into one detachment.

EDIT: On second thought, I have enough points to fit in a Manipulus. A friend has been telling me that a Manipulus with the Artisan WLT is great value. I think I will try it out.

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 2000

HQ - 305
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Static Psalm-Code
1x Daedalosus
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Fabrications of the Artisan (-1 CP)

Troop - 380
4x Kataphron Breacher
4x Kataphron Breacher
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger
5x Skitarii Ranger

Elite - 280
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest

Transport - 292
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Fast Attack - 300
5x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon

Heavy Support - 333
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Flyer - 110
1x Archaeopter Fusilave - Command Uplink

Total: 2000 points
11 CP

If your wanting extra WL traits you could either take 2 patrols at cost of 2 CP or Take a cybernettica datasmith in an elite slot - sure it can't repair your vehicles and cost 11pt more but it is better in CC has a pistol worth firing and a 2+ sv

Its nice to actually have a reason to use one

Im also thinking that most engine war buffs are very specific, so it might be worth having an additional patrol detachment.
For example. Rad saturated with better radium weapons could be a very good 2nd detachment with daedalosus we don't have a useless hq and can take an additional wlt, vanguards are lethal with ap - 1, and all 4 sicarians still get more survivability.

I dunno... only Magos and Artisan are particularly important for me; exploding 6s to hit and AP1 within half-range. From my testing, these WLTs are pretty much only good for buffing a static gunline. Currently, I am cramming 5 Ironstriders and 3 Grators around Cawl and a Manipulus. Lol.

Here's another fun concept list:


It basically drops the Copter and move the Breachers over into a Graia Castle.

Why Graia?
1) 3+/5++/5+++/6++++*
2) Abhor the Witch stratagem
3) +1 CP because our relics suck
4) Daedalosus and Mars Canticle still work; combined with Noospheric Mindlock and RR1 from Dominus, and I can still blast away vehicles

* I am thinking the phrasing of the 9E Ignore Wounds section means Genetor stacks with Refusal to Yield again. It specifically states that effects that "a model can only use one rule to attempt to ignore each wound suffered." Refusal to Yield does not attempt ignore each wound suffered; it triggers when a unit is slain. The timing then is to roll FNP from Genetor up until you are slain, then you roll to see if you Refuse to Yield. (I am supposing none of the 8E FAQ will carry over into 9E, but the errata for our codexes will.)

@Suzuteo
Wouldn't Magos in place of the Artisan be a better choice? Yes, you can fall back and shoot but you have 20 Fulgurites to counter-punch - that's enough IMO. And Magos brings a lot to Belleros in my experience, to the point it is my auto pick Holy Order.