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BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Marines are the last thing on my mind when list building. 2 damage weapons happen to be some of the best in the game

Marines are common, but awful.

I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

What is the purpose of having 300 point transports when your best ability wants you to stay still? What is the point of having 300 point transports without invun saves? Plus your best weapon slays you as often as it kills opponents because of -1 to hit spam.

Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

I doubt they will do any original marine units over. The only reason chaos got a bunch of new kits for older entries is new weapon options and the fact that most of the chaos line was ancient and kinda crappy looking compared to the newer loyalist kits.

It'll be a while but GW clearly sees that it can make more money by making marine players buy a new army then simply continuing the main marine as is.

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

 Insectum7 wrote:

Much of the 2W weapons are great/best-choice weapons regardless of the existence of Primaris.

Exactly. The issue isn't marine stats, it's undercosted weapons.

In almost all cases, the price of those weapons needs to double or triple. There's a problem even they're the best choice for everything.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

No, I'm not comparing them to assault marines. I do think bikes are a more apt comparison, and Inceptors are quite a bit more expensive than bikes too. The closest parallel however is the Attack Bike, they're close together on both firepower and point cost. The bike is 4" faster, has a longer range, and has twice as many wounds while the Inceptor brings fly, deepstrike, and non-heavy weapons instead.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

That's purely on GW. Primaris arms/helmets/shoulderpads are interchangeable with all the old kits. Theres no reason new marine sculpts wouldn't also be interchangeable, meaning theres no reason they'd have to update a million kits.

It's following the design philosophy of the new chaos kits that would be the issue. From what I understand they're not interchangeable.

its what fueled my decision to switch to eldar completely. Eldar has a lot of customizability compared to the new marines.

Eipi10 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

I am but a spring flower who did not play 7th, please explain. How are two wounds worse than one?

Since new CSM models who share pretty much the same stat line as normal marines came out this year, there is a chance that once the primaris marines are finally made into a full army then normal marines will get the height boost CSM got and continue to stay around for years to come. Maybe at some point (when the primaris line gets re-released for example) normal marines and primaris marines will be merged into 2W, 2A marines who can take special weapons and have AP-1 bolters.

The normal Tactical Marine Bolter has almost always been the AP -1 equivalent. The theory is all the 2 wound plasma makes no difference between a 15 point 1 wound model and a 15 point 1 wound model. Because all weapons are 2W plasma or some such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

Absolutely, they're make new Primaris Versions of several, if not most, of the small marine Special characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I doubt they will do any original marine units over. The only reason chaos got a bunch of new kits for older entries is new weapon options and the fact that most of the chaos line was ancient and kinda crappy looking compared to the newer loyalist kits.

It'll be a while but GW clearly sees that it can make more money by making marine players buy a new army then simply continuing the main marine as is.

If they can make Primaris the "fix" for marines Chaos is going to get them very soon after. They're already laying the groundwork for it. It'll also help push 1.0 Marines out of play as the Loyalist holdouts will upgrade to Primaris to remain competitive with Chaos.

^The **ll I will.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

That's purely on GW. Primaris arms/helmets/shoulderpads are interchangeable with all the old kits. Theres no reason new marine sculpts wouldn't also be interchangeable, meaning theres no reason they'd have to update a million kits.

It's following the design philosophy of the new chaos kits that would be the issue. From what I understand they're not interchangeable.

because the chest and elgs being seperate was essentially holding GW's design back I suspect. hence why they did what they did with chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Hahahahahahahahahaha. No, just no. I just came back to 40k and were surprised about the lack of marines and the need for me to explain kinda basic marine stuff for my opponents in my last 2 tournaments. Sure they were small 16 man ones but I was the only marine(BA) player. Several of those that started playing in the last few years even commented on how it was their first time playing against marines or Blood Angels. I even had a few gotcha moments when I could surprise them since they didnt understand my rules even though I warned them about my stratagems and psychic powers.

People apparently play super hard lists around here and marines in 8th are dead. You might see a supreme command of smash captains but thats it. Now I understand how Dark Eldar players used to feel a decade ago.

But yeah. No one takes 2 damage weapons to use them against marines. They just so happens to kill tanks, FNP/multiwound units, monsters and overpriced marines equally well and the last category is just a bonus they get for building their list against good units. If you can kill knights and nurgle/ork hordes with your list you can kill power armor marines easily as well. Both antitank weapons and anti infantry weapons are cost effective against marine statline.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

 Xenomancers wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

5ed Space Wolves)

 Xenomancers wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

Marines were pretty common in 4th, but that was less 'marines are scary' and more '#$%&ing power armor'. The AP system at the time made Marines really hard to kill.

I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klickor wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

But then AP 2 spam became accessible.

Klickor wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

Exactly this. Previously marines work because of the core rules, despite their statline was mediocre. And that was cool, play good and your guys could actually get the job done. Now even primaris can't do anything with their "updated" statline.

That's not really accurate. Marines have been bad for a long time.

5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Silver144 wrote:
5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

But non-SW were not that great in 5th. 5th ed was the beginning of MAXIMUM FIREPOWER ALL THE TIME. Plus, any jerk off could get a 4++ from cover, and that cheapened power armor a lot, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:
I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Heresy is overrated. And irrelevant in the case of space bugs.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

But non-SW were not that great in 5th. 5th ed was the beginning of MAXIMUM FIREPOWER ALL THE TIME. Plus, any jerk off could get a 4++ from cover, and that cheapened power armor a lot, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:
I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Heresy is overrated. And irrelevant in the case of space bugs.

Even if cover made PA feel bad it still kinda played to the marine rules strength in that it nerfed shooting and made melee more relevant. They dont get 4+ cover in melee and ATSKNF were a beastly rule back then compared to now.

I quit wargaming midway through 5th edition but Blood Angels werent bad back then. I want my old Mephiston back. He is so underwhelming compared to back then, even if he were more expensive and had less speed and attacks he still were way better due to how the core gameplay was. He crushed any vehicle with ease then and now he cant even bracket anything and get killed in like 2-3 shots due to multiwounds and AP now. He ate landraiders for breakfast and any unit lacking powerfists or thunderhammers were doomed.

Mephy is a lot better since he just can't be picked out and shot. 5th ed mephy couldn't even join squads.