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Personally I hate the idea of getting rid of the Indexs, and am very glad that I do not play in the tournament environment where they may end up not being allowed. It again plays into IMBALANCE, which is of course one of biggest issues with the game.

By getting rid of Indexs this negatively effects each army in a specific and UNBALANCED way. Some armies still rely heavily on Index options (Orks for example) because without them their army would be gutted (specifically their characters) and in a significantly worse position.

It's the same argument as saying get rid of Points and just use Power Level. Sure that is fine for "narrative" play, though even in that case I wouldn't want to use them, because again they effect different armies in significantly different ways. PL is awesome for armies with tons of options, not so great for an army like Necrons who have very little customization for their units.

I'm all for having differing opinions, but when those opinions can negatively effect other people and their armies more than yours, I see something inherently wrong with that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

The biggest issue with the lack of updates to the Index is for the models that they still sell! The Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris from Warhammer World are only in the Index and probably won't get the update. As far as I know, they are still for sale. Legion of the Damned are also still for sale and are only in the Index.

Having not had a FLGS in quite some time - but having one now - how does this usually work?

Will they have the new Marine Codex for sale on the 17th, or do new releases usually show up at FLGS' at a later date then the date listed on the GW site?

 Alpharius wrote:
Having not had a FLGS in quite some time - but having one now - how does this usually work?

Will they have the new Marine Codex for sale on the 17th, or do new releases usually show up at FLGS' at a later date then the date listed on the GW site?

Unless they're not ordering stuff on time or are going through a distributor rather than GW, they should have it on the 17th.

OrkPlayer137 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

The biggest issue with the lack of updates to the Index is for the models that they still sell! The Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris from Warhammer World are only in the Index and probably won't get the update. As far as I know, they are still for sale. Legion of the Damned are also still for sale and are only in the Index.

Well, the Lander Raider Excelsior, Rhino Primaris and Legion of the Damned are all in the new Apocalypse datasheets so it seems likely they will be in the new codex.

 Da-Rock wrote:

OrkPlayer137 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

The biggest issue with the lack of updates to the Index is for the models that they still sell! The Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris from Warhammer World are only in the Index and probably won't get the update. As far as I know, they are still for sale. Legion of the Damned are also still for sale and are only in the Index.

Well, the Lander Raider Excelsior, Rhino Primaris and Legion of the Damned are all in the new Apocalypse datasheets so it seems likely they will be in the new codex.

I wouldn't expect them to be in the new codex. Apocalypse was for long-time players who have large collections and thus had rules for OOP and exclusive models. The new codex will most likely follow the current trend of only having rules for models easily available to the majority of the player base. That would preclude the Warhammer World exclusives such as the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

ThatMG wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

This sentiment is exactly why I don't get any of the hate at all. You don't like something? Don't include it in your games. They're *your* toy soldiers. You're one conversation with the person you're playing with from having exactly the game and rules you want. Unless you're a tourney player I just don't get all the hate that spews about whenever new rules/codices are dropped.

EldarExarch wrote:
Personally I hate the idea of getting rid of the Indexs, and am very glad that I do not play in the tournament environment where they may end up not being allowed. It again plays into IMBALANCE, which is of course one of biggest issues with the game.

By getting rid of Indexs this negatively effects each army in a specific and UNBALANCED way. Some armies still rely heavily on Index options (Orks for example) because without them their army would be gutted (specifically their characters) and in a significantly worse position.

It's the same argument as saying get rid of Points and just use Power Level. Sure that is fine for "narrative" play, though even in that case I wouldn't want to use them, because again they effect different armies in significantly different ways. PL is awesome for armies with tons of options, not so great for an army like Necrons who have very little customization for their units.

I'm all for having differing opinions, but when those opinions can negatively effect other people and their armies more than yours, I see something inherently wrong with that.

Orkz are fine even without index options though.

 Irbis wrote:
Cool, where I can buy ogryn bodyguard box?

You know GW used to list the Ogryn box 4 times on the webstore, one of them being Ogryn Bodyguard w/2 other Ogryn, right?

And don't deny no mini = no rules. I know you dislike me, but arguing against such a thing just makes you look foolish.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

This sentiment is exactly why I don't get any of the hate at all. You don't like something? Don't include it in your games. They're *your* toy soldiers. You're one conversation with the person you're playing with from having exactly the game and rules you want. Unless you're a tourney player I just don't get all the hate that spews about whenever new rules/codices are dropped.

It's because most people who go out of their way to use index options tend to do so in order to bring stuff that has become busted over time.

ERJAK wrote:

It's because most people who go out of their way to use index options tend to do so in order to bring stuff that has become busted over time.

No, most people who play with the index options just want to use their old models.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And there's the flamer variant, with its Heavy Bolter out for some extra pewpew.

Invictory will be yours! article.

Mmmmmmmm, that’s the sweet promethium justice I like. Now paint that sucker up in Salamanders green.

For all people complaining about the price of the new dreadnought here you can have a proxy alternative

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Cool, where I can buy ogryn bodyguard box?

You know GW used to list the Ogryn box 4 times on the webstore, one of them being Ogryn Bodyguard w/2 other Ogryn, right?

And don't deny no mini = no rules. I know you dislike me, but arguing against such a thing just makes you look foolish.

Taurox Prime with Heavy Stubber?

I want to like that not-dreadnought, but it needs to be enclosed so it looks like a normal dreadnought and it suffers from nonsensical tacticool Primaris design. Guilliman can wield a heavy bolter built into his power fist no problem but a mech as big as he is has to wield it like a pistol and hinder its melee capabilities. Why?

why not?

I bet you could take the extra armor panel from the Redemptor Dreadnought and use it to better enclose the cockpit of the Invictor. Probably literally placing it right over the roll cage.

 zend wrote:
I want to like that not-dreadnought, but it needs to be enclosed so it looks like a normal dreadnought and it suffers from nonsensical tacticool Primaris design. Guilliman can wield a heavy bolter built into his power fist no problem but a mech as big as he is has to wield it like a pistol and hinder its melee capabilities. Why?

Guilliman can’t throw his heavy Bolter at the enemy when it runs out of ammunition.

Against many opponents smashing them with the HB is likely to have the same effect as the full power fiat anyway...

 Galas wrote:
For all people complaining about the price of the new dreadnought here you can have a proxy alternative

Spoiler:

https://www.amazon.es/Playmobil-9251-figura-juguete-Multicolor/dp/B06X42PQ9R/ref=asc_df_B06X42PQ9R/?tag=googshopes-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=199026567054&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12912772840106198098&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20288&hvtargid=pla-395699618804&psc=1

Spoiler:

That's not actually a bad idea.

ERJAK wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

This sentiment is exactly why I don't get any of the hate at all. You don't like something? Don't include it in your games. They're *your* toy soldiers. You're one conversation with the person you're playing with from having exactly the game and rules you want. Unless you're a tourney player I just don't get all the hate that spews about whenever new rules/codices are dropped.

It's because most people who go out of their way to use index options tend to do so in order to bring stuff that has become busted over time.

except we’ve had 2 years worth of tournies basically showing the index has nothing busted.
Having a bigmek not in mega Armour isn’t busted
Having a warlord in mega Armour or on bike isn’t busted
It just lack of options on themed lists.
The most busted thing irks have isn’t index it’s a relic from a campaign and units from the codex.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet you could take the extra armor panel from the Redemptor Dreadnought and use it to better enclose the cockpit of the Invictor. Probably literally placing it right over the roll cage.

Which would be a terrible design for a stealth suit and is why they left it out in the first place. The whole point of the dam thing is that it's supposed to be surprise attacking people out of cover and taking them by surprise. The marine inside has his armor on which should be plenty. This thing isn't SUPPOSED to be taking the type of return fire that would require a full dreadnought plate covering and so traded it out to be lighter and faster. If he's being led by a halfway decent commander it should always be more of a benefit than a liability to not have that heavy front plate.

I swear, people whine all the time about 40k units not making tactical sense and then they design a unit that looks perfectly reasonable for the thing they're trying to get it to do and suddenly everbody wants to slap impractical nonsense onto it.

Hey we should give it a spoiler and a subwoofer too, since we don't care about making less noise anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

This sentiment is exactly why I don't get any of the hate at all. You don't like something? Don't include it in your games. They're *your* toy soldiers. You're one conversation with the person you're playing with from having exactly the game and rules you want. Unless you're a tourney player I just don't get all the hate that spews about whenever new rules/codices are dropped.

It's because most people who go out of their way to use index options tend to do so in order to bring stuff that has become busted over time.

except we’ve had 2 years worth of tournies basically showing the index has nothing busted.
Having a bigmek not in mega Armour isn’t busted
Having a warlord in mega Armour or on bike isn’t busted
It just lack of options on themed lists.
The most busted thing irks have isn’t index it’s a relic from a campaign and units from the codex.

Orkz aren't the only army in the game.

Index units, because they're not updated like everything else is, risk breaking things when new books come out or points changes are made. An example of this is the Sisters of Battle Imagifier. The imagifier gives out an act of faith on a 4+. Well, AoFs don't work like they used to so the imagifier RAW can bypass Sister's new resource system and give out essentially 'free' AoFs. This is mostly fine because the new AoFs are terrible garbage but if AoFs suddenly became extremely powerful then the fact that GW didn't plan for this unit to exist means that it could potentially break the army and make it super OP.

Several units in the Forgeworld index have already needed to be nerfed off the face of the earth and as time goes on the likelyhood of even more index units becoming powerful in ways that wasn't intended increases.

Ideally the index units will kick around until GW get around to making new models for them, but if not the day may come where the game has changed enough that Index units end up dropped entirely.

ERJAK wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet you could take the extra armor panel from the Redemptor Dreadnought and use it to better enclose the cockpit of the Invictor. Probably literally placing it right over the roll cage.

Which would be a terrible design for a stealth suit and is why they left it out in the first place. The whole point of the dam thing is that it's supposed to be surprise attacking people out of cover and taking them by surprise. The marine inside has his armor on which should be plenty. This thing isn't SUPPOSED to be taking the type of return fire that would require a full dreadnought plate covering and so traded it out to be lighter and faster. If he's being led by a halfway decent commander it should always be more of a benefit than a liability to not have that heavy front plate.

I swear, people whine all the time about 40k units not making tactical sense and then they design a unit that looks perfectly reasonable for the thing they're trying to get it to do and suddenly everbody wants to slap impractical nonsense onto it.

Hey we should give it a spoiler and a subwoofer too, since we don't care about making less noise anymore.

Personally, I think it is fine. It isn't a Dreadnought. It is a Warsuit. And yeah, the Marine is in his armor. I don't think some armor on the front would hinder the sound dampening, but it isn't the end of the world for the model not to have it. I was just throwing that idea out there for people that are extra butthurt about the model not looking the way they want it to.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I bet you could take the extra armor panel from the Redemptor Dreadnought and use it to better enclose the cockpit of the Invictor. Probably literally placing it right over the roll cage.

Which would be a terrible design for a stealth suit and is why they left it out in the first place. The whole point of the dam thing is that it's supposed to be surprise attacking people out of cover and taking them by surprise. The marine inside has his armor on which should be plenty. This thing isn't SUPPOSED to be taking the type of return fire that would require a full dreadnought plate covering and so traded it out to be lighter and faster. If he's being led by a halfway decent commander it should always be more of a benefit than a liability to not have that heavy front plate.

I swear, people whine all the time about 40k units not making tactical sense and then they design a unit that looks perfectly reasonable for the thing they're trying to get it to do and suddenly everbody wants to slap impractical nonsense onto it.

Hey we should give it a spoiler and a subwoofer too, since we don't care about making less noise anymore.

Personally, I think it is fine. It isn't a Dreadnought. It is a Warsuit. And yeah, the Marine is in his armor. I don't think some armor on the front would hinder the sound dampening, but it isn't the end of the world for the model not to have it. I was just throwing that idea out there for people that are extra butthurt about the model not looking the way they want it to.

On their community website the creators specifically say its a stripped down dreadnaught.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/07/space-marines-preview-new-unitsgw-homepage-post-1/

An Invictor Tactical Warsuit is, in essence, a Redemptor Dreadnought that has been stripped back and redesigned with lighter, sound-dampening materials for use on covert operations. I don't know why a front plate really makes that much more noise... its still an effin dreadnaught.

Its bit of a lazy design IMO and a missed opportunity because its just another dreadnaught but I get why they did.
I think it's a really cool model straight outta avatar. I like its holster and stuff. Its just really cool, absolutely bonkers and makes no sense so its fine for 40k!

As a Ravenwing Player, I often use index choices.....Librarian, Chaplain and Techmarine on bikes.

God i love the war suit. Yeah it’s almost straight out of avatar, but that’s part of the appeal for me.
Love how the primaris are going for the fun tacticool look. Hell I want that thing running through the jungle blasting away its heavy bolter with a massive combat sword in the other hand.

Failing that I’ll take six of them rappelling out of a flyer down to the ground on zip lines. Now that would be a cool sight on the table. If a little mad,,, might even see if i have a spare catachan bandana head for the marine . Lol. Good times.

ERJAK wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget nothing in the Indexes get Shock Assault or Angels of Death.

I wish GW would just make Indexes Narrative Play only and be done with it.

You use Datasheet = Codex, Index = Wargear. So you get your ability.
If you using one that doesn't exist you can get your rules RAI/HIWPI.

The hate Index gets is weird, their official rules as of yet no word has come from GW to the effect of "you can no longer use Index"

This is something I was wondering about. I have a venerable dreadnought with autocannons. I was thinking it would still get all of the new rules since the unit's datasheet is in the new codex even though the weapon options are from the index. My friend has a chaplain on bike which does not have a datasheet in the new codex, so if he took that as an index entry he would lose doctrines.

The one exception is when you have drastically different rules. The example of that chaplain wouldn't get new prayers. Unless both players agreed.
What goes into the RAI of "Most important rule" basically if both players agree your "toy soldiers can do anything you want them to."

Index only options tend to has stupid points cost that are way higher than they should be anyway. Also it is totally RAI for units to get abilities as you use codex datasheet for rules/stats and index for wargear that is how the official chart tells you how to play. With updated points costs.

This sentiment is exactly why I don't get any of the hate at all. You don't like something? Don't include it in your games. They're *your* toy soldiers. You're one conversation with the person you're playing with from having exactly the game and rules you want. Unless you're a tourney player I just don't get all the hate that spews about whenever new rules/codices are dropped.

It's because most people who go out of their way to use index options tend to do so in order to bring stuff that has become busted over time.

Except GW's typical codex creep leaves index stuff anything but not broken seeing GW deliberately upped the power levels in codexes over indexes to ensure they sell more stuff(especially as point costs were dropped down a lot to ensure players have to buy more models to fit again to 2000 pts)

Good news for those that thought the Khan on Bike would mean no Captain on Bike. The Captain on Bike is still in the new codex. And the villagers rejoice!

YAY!

BrianDavion wrote:
YAY!

I kinda want to make a Bike Captain just to have now. Honestly, the Twin Bolter and a Storm Bolter would be pretty killer for a Crimson Fists Captain.