Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Continuity wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Sigmatron wrote:
So when is the Eldar flyer spam gonna get banned at events? Hopefully more events don't follow this example.

Eldar flyers are less of an issue if your playing the actual game GW writes instead of ITC.

Few tournaments are "GW games" as apposed to ITC. So they are a problem.

Sounds like the ITC is the problem. It is not really GWs fault if your houserules cause unintended consequences.

Damn right.

ITC has warped everything about this game in a really bad way.

Sorry I must have missed the memo where 7 untouchable flyers with massive threat range, consistent damage and can essentially teleport across the board is only good because of ITC.

Go play an ETC mission.
Your kills give 0 points, you don't have enough on the board to hold more then 1, maybe 2 objectives and your going to miss a lot of Maelstrom points.
Your flyers are still great but the 7 flyer list loses the mission.
While in the ITC more then half your points are going to come from simply killing things. (kill, kill more and 3 secondaries to kill specific stuff).

Sounds like flyer spam is pretty US-centric due to ITC.

Haven't played ITC yet, have yet to see flier spam. Can confirm.

drbored wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a push-back on a lot of FW stuff with this new marine Codex. Until other factions get similarly codex-creeped updates, this sort of problem is going to keep coming up.

Xiphons, Leviathans, Deredeos, and plenty of other combos besides that haven't been figured out yet. GW balances the Codexes using the plastic models that they make, with little consideration for the FW side of things, telling FW to handle their own rules (conjecture, idk if that's how it works, but that's how it dang well feels).

,

I'm curious to how Xiphons are anywhere near the power of a Leviathan? In my experience they're mediocre at best.

Looking at ETC 2019 lists 96 razorwings, 24 voidraven.Word drukhari(1 per player with dark eldars, 1 per detachment) appeared 98 times. 105 crimson hunters, 20 hemlocks with word aeldar appearing 41 times.

Flyer spam exists well.

Flyer spam only works in ITC missions.

If you don't like it, campaign to change the mission types to those in Chapter Approved.

As for the Leviathan - it is simply too durable and creates a really toxic game experience.

Funny how competive to max ETC event has the flyers by the bucketload...Or is this some "real competive players don't exist in europe" mentality?-)

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how competive to max ETC event has the flyers by the bucketload...Or is this some "real competive players don't exist in europe" mentality?-)

ETC is a team tournament. Lots of skew lists make the grade because you can match them favourably.

Try making that list work as a TAC in a singles championship without having to house rule it to be better.

Like 90% of the biggest meta gaps this edition are caused by ITC's heavy focus on killing gak. It's why durability is so valued in ITC - it denies kill points. ITC is born from the k/d ratio obsessed.

Turns out, when the game is about tactical movement and objectives, a bunch of flyers that can't hold objectives get countered very quickly.

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how competive to max ETC event has the flyers by the bucketload...Or is this some "real competive players don't exist in europe" mentality?-)

ETC team lists are all skewed as you can steer them towards the correct opponent.

 chimeara wrote:

drbored wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a push-back on a lot of FW stuff with this new marine Codex. Until other factions get similarly codex-creeped updates, this sort of problem is going to keep coming up.

Xiphons, Leviathans, Deredeos, and plenty of other combos besides that haven't been figured out yet. GW balances the Codexes using the plastic models that they make, with little consideration for the FW side of things, telling FW to handle their own rules (conjecture, idk if that's how it works, but that's how it dang well feels).

,

I'm curious to how Xiphons are anywhere near the power of a Leviathan? In my experience they're mediocre at best.

I'm guessing he's just reciting names of fw units. Because all fw is op. You know like stompas, renegades and heretics, and malcador tanks.

FW models are banned in my official GW store, take what you want from that.

My main issue with FW is that not all armies FW equally.

Consider Necrons and Dark Eldar in particular. Scant offerings indeed.

Marines, Guard and Tau? Loads.

Spoletta wrote:
FW models are banned in my official GW store, take what you want from that.

Your local manager is a mumpet, and IRCC in breach of GW policy.

I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.

I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret

Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice

Klickor wrote:
I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.

I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret

Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice

So the issue is fw, units that existed way longer, but SM supplements are fine.

The feth is that logic...

Not Online!!! wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.

I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret

Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice

So the issue is fw, units that existed way longer, but SM supplements are fine.

The feth is that logic...

My guess is that the event would be finished if it banned an actual GW codex. GW would pull sponsorship, etc.

Ice_can wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
FW models are banned in my official GW store, take what you want from that.

Your local manager is a mumpet, and IRCC in breach of GW policy.

aren't they not allowed at some of the GW HQ tournaments too?

Lemondish wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny how competive to max ETC event has the flyers by the bucketload...Or is this some "real competive players don't exist in europe" mentality?-)

ETC is a team tournament. Lots of skew lists make the grade because you can match them favourably.

Try making that list work as a TAC in a singles championship without having to house rule it to be better.

Like 90% of the biggest meta gaps this edition are caused by ITC's heavy focus on killing gak. It's why durability is so valued in ITC - it denies kill points. ITC is born from the k/d ratio obsessed.

I think its funny how every tournament niche has the same view of each of the other niches. I swear I've heard ITC, ETC and pure book mission proponents ALL decry "But their format just rewards killing rather than movement and objective grabbing!"

Honestly, go to any tournament, with any format, you'll see pretty much the same army lists showing up in any of them, because they don't make THAT much difference to the core mechanics of 40k. Regardless of format, you need to be able to move fast, kill lots, and survive lots.

Eldar planes do fine in ETC and pure book missions. You're more likely to see 4-5 rather than 7, backed up by other Eldar hulls like Fire Prisms/ Wave Serpents/ Night Spinners / Ravagers, but they are still one of the better units in the game. Plus eldar flyers may not score many objectives, but played well they can keep the enemy off objectives fairly well.

Pure book missions DO give horde armies a bit of a boost (but then again, hordes do decently in ETC and ITC as well). But they get a boost by just being incredibly uninspiring to play. Can you remove 300 boyz from objectives before T4? If not then GG. But horde killing firepower is going back up across the board as well, including with repulsors and the titular IH Leviathan.

Turns out, when the game is about tactical movement and objectives, a bunch of flyers that can't hold objectives get countered very quickly.

Turns out, that blasting your opponent off the field is a good defense to needing to capture objectives.

 Eonfuzz wrote:


But time IS money, as I said earlier.
If I spend 20+ hours (at least!) getting good with a character at lets say an average way of $30 an hour, that's $600+ worth of time spent learning how to play them.

People do accept that however.

no offence friend, but the only people who care about your time, is your and maybe your family, and of course you can give your time any monetary cost. I can assure you that a lot more people bought FW or recast leviathans, specially post the rules being shown. And those people want to play with the stuff they paid.



also does it make it worse if you live in a country where hour of work is worth 3,27$?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.

I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret

Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice

So the issue is fw, units that existed way longer, but SM supplements are fine.

The feth is that logic...

My guess is that the event would be finished if it banned an actual GW codex. GW would pull sponsorship, etc.

Considering it is smaller one that anyways won't get sponsored, is frankly not the reason.
I think here a friend of the TO got triggered and this got through.
How the hell else would all non LoW fw units be banned now there

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I wouldnt mind a complete banning of FW in most tournaments. Just to keep the amount of Datasheets down to a more reasonable number. At least for Imperium since the amount of units is staggering. 40k feels a lot like the one who could remember all the units and especially stratagems is the one who wins. Not really a problem in a smaller and more easily acessable game but 40k rules are all over the place. I could probably learn all the armies in 4th edition faster than just Marines with their supplements and how all the stratagems and tactics work now in 8th.

I wouldnt ban just 1 unit though since I think its more of a bloat/information problem than a powerlevel problem. And leviathans arent exactly obscure so how to play against them isnt a secret

Some FW units could probably become regular units and lots of normal Datasheets being consolidated at the same time. I would still like to see the FW units on the table but then perhaps more as count as since they do look good or in more casual games in which I could spend 15-20min talking with my opponent before we even start rolling aby dice

So the issue is fw, units that existed way longer, but SM supplements are fine.

The feth is that logic...

My guess is that the event would be finished if it banned an actual GW codex. GW would pull sponsorship, etc.

Considering it is smaller one that anyways won't get sponsored, is frankly not the reason.
I think here a friend of the TO got triggered and this got through.
How the hell else would all non LoW fw units be banned now there

The rest probably got banned because someone complained and went "Well if you can 1 FW unit, you may as well ban them all" and the TO took that as a challenge rather than sarcasm.

Also possible.

I mean those filthy dkok grenadiers break the game so hard it gets twitchs /S

I mean, FW bans aren't new. Aren't titans banned at most tournaments?

@ Why FW is banned.

FW is scary, because people don't have as much exposure to it as they do to the main line.
Because of that, the models that you DO see at events are the most powerful ones.
So people build up a wrong idea that FW is broken, when in actual fact by % of models, GW main line has far more balance issues.

However, its a nice clean line that people can draw. It's neat. It's non-discriminatory. And even for most people with extensive FW collections, it's not really a big deal as they also have extensive non-FW collections as well.
We still see this a lot in smaller events with bans on Lords of War. Not all LOW are created equal, but its a nice neat line to draw to cull some of the worst offenders.

What the TO has done here is pick one specific thing that is too powerful, and target that. Honestly that's the way things SHOULD be balanced, not blanket buffs or nerfs to random keywords. But the community (as evidenced) gets up in arms. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'm a little concerned this heralds the return of comp systems. Which I thought were absolutely necessary in 7th, and are getting more so in 8th. The amount of additional power being given to the latest releases via things that don't cost points - relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics and doctrines - is just getting to insane levels. I hope GW turns this around quickly or we're going to see the descent in to the formation-hammer that made the tail of 7th so intolerable.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, FW bans aren't new. Aren't titans banned at most tournaments?

Not to my knowledge, also why would a to ban them, considering knights are the better titans

Guys. The solution is obviously not to ban FW, but to bring back comp scores.

That’s the real solution.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, FW bans aren't new. Aren't titans banned at most tournaments?

Not to my knowledge, also why would a to ban them, considering knights are the better titans

how were they in the past?

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Guys. The solution is obviously not to ban FW, but to bring back comp scores.

That’s the real solution.

the best solution would be a propper standardized Tournament ruleset.
One that is Good and balanced overall. So that we also would finally get propper datasets for comparison.

All we can hope for now is space marines nerfs so hard that the entire lot of en are useless again. It’s fine they got a month in the spot light, time to be trash for the players base no one wants to play with anymore.

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:


So you chose to play a FW army.....so? You don't play in that particular event, sorry. Your choice.
I've TO'd many FOW events, and I hear the same excuses. Why can't my Soviets play in a Normandy themed event? Really?
It's not all events, just some.

If we're talking about a narrative themed event, thats one thing, but then we're also not talking about a run of the mill event at that point.

But anyway, yes I chose to play an FW army, how and why is that different than choosing to play Space Marines generally?

Just to return to this since I've been gone most of the day..

I can answer the second part pretty easily.
When I stop by my GW store (or FLGS) on the way home, point me to the shelf where I can buy the FW army? Or even on the games-workshop online store. They are vastly different entities.

And that matters how? They are both GW models. FW is part of GW. They are 100% part of same company. Easily bought. And by far less balance issues than GW main studio. Banning them is just knee jerk reaction from lazy TO's.

because he was specifically talking about FW armies, not the odd FW model.
It's a different entity altogether (I think we're just talking R+H right? Or maybe Elysians too...not sure...which highlights the point even more.....they are not recognizable and known armies due to zero exposure outside of specific FW book(s)) It's a separate army with no space on a GW shelf, no drop down menu on the GW website. It IS different. Don't get all butthurt that you can't play them in a tournament, you chose a niche list that is not a mainstream army. It's not about power level of the army, I'm sure they can't be that strong because I've never seen a single one played.....ever.