Phoenix rising is a crap book.

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**Tyel**

People are not bitter the CSM legions are getting something. They are bitter the Aeldari release was so threadbare. Will people use buffed up CHE? Sure - who doesnt take free buffs - but it's a wasted opportunity to do something else like expand the various Craftworlds, Kabals etc. Realise the WD Ynnari rules are rubbish, do anything at all with Harlequins etc.

It really doesnt cost GW much to be imaginative.

**Eldarain**

Bit flippantly dismissing build your faction rules. I'd kill to have a list to make something better than reroll morale (sad trombone)

**Marin**

PenitentJake wrote:
Marin wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

I`m not surprised, but what really put insult to injury is that the Sisters box is cheaper and have codex in it and we have to pay extra just to get the book.

SO I think you're comparing the Sisters box to the Blood of the Phoenix Box. If so, in BotP, you get 22 infantry models and 3 vehicles including a tank, plus a campaign book. In the Sisters box, we get 24 infantry models, one vehicle (NOT a tank) and a codex. By every comparison that can possibly be made, your box should cost more. See, I could say as a Sisters player that it is unfair that at this time, we MUST buy the box in order to play, because the new dex invalidates the beta dex, and it is not sold separately yet.

You, on the other hand, can buy your dex for either of the factions; you can also buy your new rules as a separate book.

But for me, the bigger issue, and I think I said this way back on page 1 or 2, is that many of the people here, you included (if I have interpreted correctly) are comparing apples to oranges. Both the Marine Dex + Supplements AND the Sisters release are CODICES. They can be effectively compared to other CODICES for discussion purposes. Viglus, PA 1 and PA 2 are CAMPAIGN SUPPLEMENTS. They can be effectively compared for discussion purposes.

You shouldn't expect a Codex to be a Campaign Supplement. They are two different types of releases that serve two different gaming purposes, and while this might be lost on many Dakkanauts, they are also serve two types of players. If you are a competitive, tournament player, PA was not made for you. It was made for the narrative players, and generally, if you've read all 20 pages of this thread, you can see that the majority of people complaining have competitiveness at the core of their dissatisfaction (though many do have additional points of dissatisfaction); if you look at any who has said they didn't mind it (though there are fewer of us), we've talked about story hooks, or campaign tools, or customization.

I love Kill Team. But when Kill Team released the Arena set, I knew it was not the set for me, because I couldn't really care less about winning or losing; competitive, tournament style play bores me to tears, even if the rules are awesome and balanced. If there's no story achieved via linked scenarios where battle impacts the growth and composition of the army, I just don't care.

But the other thing about me is that I don't rage when GW makes products that fit your play style. I didn't whine for twenty pages that Arena was made; I don't want them to stop making products for competitive people. I just knew myself and the game well enough to know that Arena wasn't the product for me, and I chose not to buy it- doesn't mean it was a bad product either- it just didn't fit my needs. Simple. Now you can argue that you need the rules if you play the updated units; you can't complain that rules for the new units aren't in the box, because they are in the form of the Datacards. I do understand you being upset that you can't get the new units without buying the box- that's totally valid.

I don`t understand what the types of the model have to do with value. Most people would have preferred to get 10-15 extra infantry models instead of the vehicles. The new sisters box value is much higher and its good starter set.
I don`t see real reason that any old players not to get the new models and get the codex in the some time.
Even chip-stakes should not worry, because they will release the codex sooner or latter and most new players will get at least 2 boxes so codexes will be sold on ebay.

If you read all 20 pages you should see less rage and more SM players hijacking the treat.

**Tyranid Horde**

PenitentJake wrote:
Marin wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Oh cool, I see GW can think of new Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems for half a dozen Chaos factions but not a single one for Eldar or DE.

I`m not surprised, but what really put insult to injury is that the Sisters box is cheaper and have codex in it and we have to pay extra just to get the book.

SO I think you're comparing the Sisters box to the Blood of the Phoenix Box. If so, in BotP, you get 22 infantry models and 3 vehicles including a tank, plus a campaign book. In the Sisters box, we get 24 infantry models, one vehicle (NOT a tank) and a codex. By every comparison that can possibly be made, your box should cost more. See, I could say as a Sisters player that it is unfair that at this time, we MUST buy the box in order to play, because the new dex invalidates the beta dex, and it is not sold separately yet.

You, on the other hand, can buy your dex for either of the factions; you can also buy your new rules as a separate book.

But for me, the bigger issue, and I think I said this way back on page 1 or 2, is that many of the people here, you included (if I have interpreted correctly) are comparing apples to oranges. Both the Marine Dex + Supplements AND the Sisters release are CODICES. They can be effectively compared to other CODICES for discussion purposes. Viglus, PA 1 and PA 2 are CAMPAIGN SUPPLEMENTS. They can be effectively compared for discussion purposes.

You shouldn't expect a Codex to be a Campaign Supplement. They are two different types of releases that serve two different gaming purposes, and while this might be lost on many Dakkanauts, they are also serve two types of players. If you are a competitive, tournament player, PA was not made for you. It was made for the narrative players, and generally, if you've read all 20 pages of this thread, you can see that the majority of people complaining have competitiveness at the core of their dissatisfaction (though many do have additional points of dissatisfaction); if you look at any who has said they didn't mind it (though there are fewer of us), we've talked about story hooks, or campaign tools, or customization.

I love Kill Team. But when Kill Team released the Arena set, I knew it was not the set for me, because I couldn't really care less about winning or losing; competitive, tournament style play bores me to tears, even if the rules are awesome and balanced. If there's no story achieved via linked scenarios where battle impacts the growth and composition of the army, I just don't care.

But the other thing about me is that I don't rage when GW makes products that fit your play style. I didn't whine for twenty pages that Arena was made; I don't want them to stop making products for competitive people. I just knew myself and the game well enough to know that Arena wasn't the product for me, and I chose not to buy it- doesn't mean it was a bad product either- it just didn't fit my needs. Simple. Now you can argue that you need the rules if you play the updated units; you can't complain that rules for the new units aren't in the box, because they are in the form of the Datacards. I do understand you being upset that you can't get the new units without buying the box- that's totally valid.

The sisters box and the blood of the phoenix box can be compared. Sisters has the codex and a brand spanking new army for less than some new models for two different armies that aren't good and a handful of filler and some of that filler is ancient. That tank for instance is almost as old as me. That campaign book is terrible from a fluff perspective and no one plays the campaigns GW put in boxes. Your argument of saying you have to buy the box is fine to an extent but let's face it, anyone who is going to play sisters will buy the box. Sisters will obviously get their codex separately so it doesn't hold up.

If you read the last 20 pages, the fluff was discussed as well as the rules and the general consensus is that they're pretty rubbish. GW have no idea what direction they're taking Ynnari and it was mostly a repeat of what they'd said already. Let's also mention that the fluff is spread over the campaign book and the supplement separately! I have both the campaign and the supplement and compared to what the other armies got for their rules and fluff needs it's a poor showing. It's not just the competitive aspect, the whole thing was poorly done.

Go read the 19 pages and try again.

**Burnage**

Eldarain wrote:
Bit flippantly dismissing build your faction rules. I'd kill to have a list to make something better than reroll morale (sad trombone)

Custom traits are cool. DE getting nothing in their Psychic Awakening update but custom traits (and a couple of slightly updated datasheets) is considerably less cool.

**Not Online!!!**

Eldarain wrote:
Bit flippantly dismissing build your faction rules. I'd kill to have a list to make something better than reroll morale (sad trombone)

Maybee we could change with aeldari players?
i would, imagine , functioning army traits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Burnage wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
Bit flippantly dismissing build your faction rules. I'd kill to have a list to make something better than reroll morale (sad trombone)

Custom traits are cool. DE getting nothing in their Psychic Awakening update but custom traits (and a couple of slightly updated datasheets) is considerably less cool.

And that's the issue imo. It's just that the update either does not fix the correct issues, or just simply is not really an update.

**the_scotsman**

bullyboy wrote:
This is probably going to be unpopular, but from a marines point of view (I have a whole slew of armies...Dark Angels, Eldar, Deathwatch, Harlequins, Iron Warriors, Ravenguard), I don't consider my armies as "marine" armies. I have Dark Angels, not marines, I have Deathwatch, not marines. So it's easy to understand that players are happy that their faction got a codex and new rules, with that faction being more than just "marines'.

On the flipside, I do feel the hate for the Eldar update....it was pretty lacklustre. There are some shining examples, but overall it feels more like a WD article than a campaign book.

Yeah no, at this point when people say "marines keep getting more crap" they are referring specifically to Codex: Space Marines. If you play GK or Deathwatch, currently that ire is as directed at you as it is at Death Guard players.

What kills me is there's so much stuff they looked at and said "You know who needs that? Only space marines. nobody else." (Cue people jumping in spluttering "y-y-YOU DONT KNOW MAYBE EVERYONES GONNA GET THAT STUFF! Uh...AFTER psychic awakening where nobody but marines is getting it!!!")

Rigid strategies they enact throughout the battle that give bonuses to particular types of unit? Definitely a thing only marines do. Tyranids wouldn't do something like that. Necrons wouldn't operate that way. Wouldn't be fluffy for admech.

The ability to upgrade all their characters to a higher leveled version via stratagems? Marines to a T, no other faction would do something like that! There are no factions who are extremely ancient and in DESPERATE need of variety in their HQ slot like Drukhari, Harlequins and Necrons, no sir, just marines need that with their 192338371274690182098461092q86319026731093817 HQ choices.

Hey Mac, who should get these 8 new psychic disciplines we just designed? Eldar? Tyranids? do Grey Knights need more psychic powers? Hey did we give Deathwatch psychic powers? No? I'll just throw them all on Codex Space Marines then. 90% of factions have only gotten 3 new powers since the index, but we'll just make sure SM gets a nice clean 48 before we get cracking on that.

There are so many better ways to have done this boost that would have improved game balance for everyone.Unfortunately, GW follows the route of greatest profit at all times, and this was the only way that would let them sell loads of books.

Marines, GK, CSM, Eldar, DA, BA, SW, DW, necrons, Admech, Tsons and Death Guard all needed that chapter tactic redesign to bring them up to parity and get rid of problem children like -1 to hit traits.Given that Eldar didn't get that, and CSM ain't, I'm guessing only SM and MAYBE the non-codex loyalist marines are gonna see that fix.

"upgrade your characters!" would be a cool universal stratagem to add to the game and give access to tons of units across factions. Same with build your own chapter tactics. But instead we get the busted-ass power creep we've always had, and to add another layer of fun CA2019 is poised to hammer that last 25-30% of top placing lists that aren't SM right now in the meta.

**Karol**

Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

**kingheff**

Change the tune Karol, we've heard it before.

**vipoid**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules ... Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

And with that insight, welcome to my Ignore List. Please enjoy your stay.

**Tyranid Horde**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

People aren't asking for good rules, people are asking for similar support that marines got with supplements. A handful of craftworld traits that won't be used very often doesn't equate the slew of marine codex supplements.

Your probably is incorrect. Eldar got absolutely nothing for 7 years. You're probably too young for this, but back in 5th edition, Eldar didn't get a codex for the entirety of that edition. The the 4th edition codex came out in 2006 and the next codex Eldar got was 2013, almost a year after 6th edition had come out.
Having played through that, back when Grey Knights were a monstrosity, you should have a think that maybe Eldar do deserve some limelight, especially when model releases have been few and far between since 2013.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

the concept, which you are questioning is:
Equal Pikes for all.

Ergo all get the same chance at a stab.
Ergo all need to get the same baseline attention else the formation breaks appart in usefullness, blame swiss history for keeping that word of knowledge around.

Basically the demand and push for equal treatment allows technically for the equal chance of all factions to play and to get their fair share aswell as an overall more healthy environment of social structure.

**a_typical_hero**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

And that is - objectively speaking - an unhealthy mindset. Everybody should get fun rules, regardless of faction or faction history. We are playing against each other, but we are no enemies. We all just look to kill some spare time with a shared interest.

**Eldarsif**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

This is a very unhealthy mindset. Do you really want to argue that Grey Knights should not get good rules because no faction needs to get good rules?

I know eye for an eye sounds good on paper, but it just tends to make people bitter and mad.

**Karol**

kingheff wrote:
Change the tune Karol, we've heard it before.

the tune of what. Clearly GW is not interested in making same level of books for all factions, or giving all factions the same type of support. I understand fully that people may not like the fact, but why are they suprised about it. There is no rule I know of, that says that eldar have to have good rules. Maybe they were always given good rules in the past, but there is no GW tenant saying eldar= always good.

And that is - objectively speaking - an unhealthy mindset. Everybody should get fun rules, regardless of faction or faction history. We are playing against each other, but we are no enemies. We all just look to kill some spare time with a shared interest.

maybe, but at the same time I keep being told that chaos is paying with bad rules for some too good book in 3ed or 2ed edition, GK are paying with bad rules for some book in 4th. If that is to be the case, then maybe GW decided that it is time for eldar to get bad rules for some time. I understand that people don't like it. I don't like my armies rule either, but when next CA comes out or FAQ, I am not suprised if the stuff in it is bad for me. I am not against good rules for all, am just suprised by the eldar playing suprised that a faction they happen to play may get no or bad support.

**Apple fox**

Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.

I hope this is a joke considering the faction you play.

**wuestenfux**

a_typical_hero wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why should eldar get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all eldar to have a set of not working books for some time.
And that is - objectively speaking - an unhealthy mindset. Everybody should get fun rules, regardless of faction or faction history. We are playing against each other, but we are no enemies. We all just look to kill some spare time with a shared interest.

Karol: this is aggressive trolling.

**a_typical_hero**

Karol wrote:
maybe, but at the same time I keep being told that chaos is paying with bad rules for some too good book in 3ed or 2ed edition, GK are paying with bad rules for some book in 4th. If that is to be the case, then maybe GW decided that it is time for eldar to get bad rules for some time. I understand that people don't like it. I don't like my armies rule either, but when next CA comes out or FAQ, I am not suprised if the stuff in it is bad for me. I am not against good rules for all, am just suprised by the eldar playing suprised that a faction they happen to play may get no or bad support.

I wouldn't listen to everything that people say, Karol. To my knowledge there is no evidence that GW is crippling factions on purpose to make up for being strong in the past. I know people like to say this, but it does not make any sense if you think about it.

What is more likely is that GW is simply bad at balancing rules or not interested. Sparkle in a little bit of "changes for the sake of changes" to keep a floating meta and bad management decisions here and there (that Wraithknight story..) and you get what we have now.

Of course I can't proof any of the stuff I'm saying, but there is a phrase saying "never assume malice where stupidity is enough"

**Not Online!!!**

a_typical_hero wrote:
Karol wrote:
maybe, but at the same time I keep being told that chaos is paying with bad rules for some too good book in 3ed or 2ed edition, GK are paying with bad rules for some book in 4th. If that is to be the case, then maybe GW decided that it is time for eldar to get bad rules for some time. I understand that people don't like it. I don't like my armies rule either, but when next CA comes out or FAQ, I am not suprised if the stuff in it is bad for me. I am not against good rules for all, am just suprised by the eldar playing suprised that a faction they happen to play may get no or bad support.
I wouldn't listen to everything that people say, Karol. To my knowledge there is no evidence that GW is crippling factions on purpose to make up for being strong in the past. I know people like to say this, but it does not make any sense if you think about it.

What is more likely is that GW is simply bad at balancing rules or not interested. Sparkle in a little bit of "changes for the sake of changes" to keep a floating meta and bad management decisions here and there (that Wraithknight story..) and you get what we have now.

Of course I can't proof any of the stuff I'm saying, but there is a phrase saying "never assume malice where stupidity is enough"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/7k1tp0/im_james_m_hewitt_freelance_tabletop_games/drb21t5/

**Sterling191**

Karol wrote:
Why should Grey Knights get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all Grey Knights to have a set of not working books for some time.

Fixed that for you.

**Karol**

Silver Tower, for example, was playtested almost entirely in my own time, unpaid, using unpaid volunteers.

I don't know what silver tower is or was, but I hope they paid him back for the over time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why should Grey Knights get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all Grey Knights to have a set of not working books for some time.

Fixed that for you.

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time. Clearly eldar were good fo decades, so eldar players should expect that sooner or later they would get a rule set that is bad. As I said before, I have no problem with people not liking bad rules for their faction. What I don't understand is why in the case of eldar players this seems as such a suprise. If the next CA has nerfs for GK direct or indirect, I would not be suprised by it.

**Daedalus81**

Karol wrote:

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time.

Literally no one here has said this. You need to stop listening to toxic people at the club.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
Silver Tower, for example, was playtested almost entirely in my own time, unpaid, using unpaid volunteers.

I don't know what silver tower is or was, but I hope they paid him back for the over time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why should Grey Knights get anything good? no faction has to get good rules, and historicaly, which for me is 8th ed but probably true to prior editions, GW made some books work and some books not. Maybe it is time for all Grey Knights to have a set of not working books for some time.

Fixed that for you.

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time. Clearly eldar were good fo decades, so eldar players should expect that sooner or later they would get a rule set that is bad. As I said before, I have no problem with people not liking bad rules for their faction. What I don't understand is why in the case of eldar players this seems as such a suprise. If the next CA has nerfs for GK direct or indirect, I would not be suprised by it.

the main take away of the discussion is this here: For your information in 7th eldar wraithknights were preety much ridicoulus, here is his side of the story of the design of it:

Ha! Fair enough then. Thanks for signing up!

The Wraithknights... well, that was a thing. The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs. So D-weapons, right? Because that's clearly what the weapons are. So we did it, and we tested them loads, and the points values shot up (I think the Wraithknight was about 450?). Then they went to review, and someone in a position of authority (who has since left0 said "I love it, but don't increase any points values."

Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?

So I said "Ok, so I'll put the rules back to how they were," and was told "no, keep them, just don't change the points values".

Makes me wince, just thinking about it.

As I say, though those days are over

**Karol**

Probably a stupid question, but what is a D-weapon ?

**Sterling191**

Karol wrote:

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time. Clearly eldar were good fo decades, so eldar players should expect that sooner or later they would get a rule set that is bad. As I said before, I have no problem with people not liking bad rules for their faction. What I don't understand is why in the case of eldar players this seems as such a suprise. If the next CA has nerfs for GK direct or indirect, I would not be suprised by it.

You've once again completely missed the point in your eternal quest for victimhood.

**Karol**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Karol wrote:

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time.

Literally no one here has said this. You need to stop listening to toxic people at the club.

On 4chan and reddit, that is what they say. Even in this thread someone mentioned that GK were overpowered at some time, only I don't remember it. Which is true 7 years ago, I was going out of house much, and didn't have internet either.

**Daedalus81**

Karol wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Karol wrote:

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time.

Literally no one here has said this. You need to stop listening to toxic people at the club.

On 4chan and reddit, that is what they say. Even in this thread someone mentioned that GK were overpowered at some time, only I don't remember it. Which is true 7 years ago, I was going out of house much, and didn't have internet either.

4chan is probably the only other place more toxic. Not sure what reddit group you're in, but I've never seen such statements.

This is a thing you can mentally determine as illogical. Don't let yourself be persuaded by gakky arguments.

**Karol**

Sterling191 wrote:
Karol wrote:

Yes, everyone keeps telling me that GK are not allowed to have good stuff, because at some time they were good for a short time. Clearly eldar were good fo decades, so eldar players should expect that sooner or later they would get a rule set that is bad. As I said before, I have no problem with people not liking bad rules for their faction. What I don't understand is why in the case of eldar players this seems as such a suprise. If the next CA has nerfs for GK direct or indirect, I would not be suprised by it.

You've once again completely missed the point in your eternal quest for victimhood.

Sorry am following you. I really don't understand why eldar player are suprised that they could get a bad set of rules, specially with GW history dealing with other armies. Did eldar players thing that their armies are going to have good rules for ever? Or that they are somehow entitled to good rules? I don't know maybe there is some WD article from 20 years ago, where GW promises they will never give bad rules to eldar. But even if that happened, promises are promises, and life is life.

**Sterling191**

Karol wrote:

Sorry am following you. I really don't understand why eldar player are suprised that they could get a bad set of rules, specially with GW history dealing with other armies. Did eldar players thing that their armies are going to have good rules for ever? Or that they are somehow entitled to good rules? I don't know maybe there is some WD article from 20 years ago, where GW promises they will never give bad rules to eldar. But even if that happened, promises are promises, and life is life.

You really, really need to take a step back from 40k Karol.

**a_typical_hero**

Karol wrote:
Probably a stupid question, but what is a D-weapon ?

Destroyer weapons were the final answer if you had to remove every single mother f***** from the table.
You can find their rules, but for simplicity let's just say they were normally mounted on Superheavies and were devastating to infantry vehicles and other Superheavies alike.

Strenght D was what came after S 10, basically. As stats were capped at 10