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Good
Mortarion and magnus points down, Yeah they are way too expensive, however Magnus is better than Morty, Morty is way too overpriced
Grots, Blame the peeps who where running 80 grots
2 Wound God Marines woot that's great, if it does not include any points increases.
Disco Spam - won't effect me never used as my narrative meta is No Vehicles.
Tau need BS rated weapons, e.g. current prices for Commanders, an decrease suit weapons costs for everything else.
Bad
Plaguebearers aren't even good any more (space marine meta), The new style is horrors that split as -1/-2 doesn't matter in re-roll everything or auto hit meta New SM Bring, an 4+/3+ INV is good vs everything. This nerf is way out of date.
Talos wut far as I know no one takes this unit...
Shield Drone nerf is bad, yeah the army is strong, however not unbeatable seems an out of date change.
Plaguebarer spam is still an issue. Not everyone uses marines so the argument is rediculous. It's just a very, very annoying suoerbuff stack that can just daisy chain between objectives and take stupid amounts of shots to kill.
Talos nerf is a head scratcher. Can anyone with Drukhari experience fill us in if this is justified or not?
Shield drone nerf is a long time coming. It's a super annoying to any army.
I've noticed you think both the nerfs you listed as being "out of date" with the meta. News flash - they aren't. T'au still spam shield drones and plaguebarer spam is still bring used. Or are you just booty blasted that the big bad marines haven't had nerfs reveled yet or still salty over the IH?
@DR Mills
I understand vs some armies PBs are good, however the updated rules are adding in more ways to ignore -Hit penalties, not just New SM.
Personally I do not have any issue with the current number of drones this seems to be a left field nerf, as they have gone down in points to the current value and are not back up, this flip flopping is lame in my view. The drones are not really an issue, it's the things behind the drones that's the issue. What again we really have to wait an see because it all depends on "how much" is the weapon points decreases. If it is significant then drones would have to go up anyway as they could have way more shield drones. However the key issue as in "events" the rule of 3 kinda limits the drone spam. Tau are not as common as many other armies, so this is why my context was in. Note: I know about Socal, I would argue that was the player not the list.
@Brian
As someone said GW have a thematic view of the battlefield, taking the 80 grots instead of boys is obviously not working as intended. As it is just allowing orks to castle up and shoot the entire game. Most of the current armies or design is about getting you to move up the board to take ground / objectives/etc. Older editions had the sit still and shoot until win plan.
this is the same reason why thunder hammers went to 40 points. It wasn't because of the players who had one smash captain, it was the players who ran 3! etc. GW changes things not just because of power scale but usage.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 03:57:36
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
I hope it means "holy feth we actually thought a fellblade was worth two baneblades? What were we smoking?".
as I said thats my hope.The cynic in me however wonders if instead they'll look at the Levi dread and be all "Ohh we missed this one! NERF FOR YOU!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.
this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"
I hope it means "holy feth we actually thought a fellblade was worth two baneblades? What were we smoking?".
as I said thats my hope.The cynic in me however wonders if instead they'll look at the Levi dread and be all "Ohh we missed this one! NERF FOR YOU!"
That's my fear as well. Nerfing all leviathans just because they are super good in some armies seems unfair to armies in which they are simply good.
A more sensible move would be an increase in points to stormcannons/butcher cannons.
I've still yet to hear an explanation why the fw super heavys were made so expensive other than "buy more knights ".
Kitane wrote: Grots are trash compared to mere termagants at 4 points. Rippers can rip grots to pieces and they aren't even 4 points per wound.
If there's a problem with the grot shield stratagem, then nerf the stratagem and not the grots.
Guardsmen, yeah, they have no business being 4 points per model.
And the stratagem isn't that good even. All it does is make opponent shoot the grots first which isn't that good. I have had the 15 lootas repeatedly blown apart despite 60 grots standing front. When you kill grots on 2+(don't shoot the orks, shoot the grots fist) they die fast. As it is I rarely make any rolls with it. Somebody fires at lootas for token to draw out CP, then everything pours fire at the grots until they are dead and then blow the lootas.
It's even easier stratgem to bypass than rotate ion shield which at least is fully effective with solo knight to protect(if you have multiples each that's just as good to destroy as other it's practically useless stratagem)
Red Corsair wrote: I am OK with making errors, but this dated model of printing patches needs to die in a fire. They need to make a living document online that folks subscribe to for rules, codexes can be for background and narrative expansion with a hobby section.
This. 100% this. I would really like to see one living document that just gets updates. I know there are some that dont want to go digital, but I think at this point it just makes sense to do. Maybe have a option to order a physical copy like Drive Thru RPG does for players who rather have the hard copy in hand.
Note he had worse suggestion than just digital(which is more inconvenient to find stuff and then you run out of battery at the inconvenient time). Subscribtion. So you don't anymore own rules but are completely at the mercy of GW. GW decides you don't play the game anymore and you don't play it at all. You have no option as the rules go poof. Not cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 09:24:46
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or they can just remove CP farming altogether and make it a set amount.
There are too many stratagems, imo. The game could use a lot of trimming and moving strats back to being unit-abilities and datasheets.
CP generation, imo, should be rare and more conditional rather than something you build into. Like, one army could generate CP whenever they kill an enemy unit, another can get a point of CP whenever they successfully cast psychic powers. Hell, why not base command points on objectives, so for every turn you hold an objective, you generate CP?
The current system just doesn't work that well, as it affects army lists way too much and forces players to take a certain combination and quantity of units, and some armies at worse at farming CP than others. Its just a clunky, restrictive system that isn't really fun to deal with.
Currently I feel Kill Team and Age of Sigmar have better CP rules than 40k. I think it is only a question of time when 40k will see similar mechanics.
TedNugent wrote: So rather than changing the way CP, battalions or brigades work, or the insanely overpowered strategem stacking combos that have promulgated like weeds the last two years and continue to get worse let's nerf grots. Makes total sense and will clearly fix the balance.
Toughness 2. 6+ armor save. 12" range pistol 1.
That people are literally only getting them to fill mandatory battalion slots should tell you everything about the state of the game.
I think you are underestimating the value of 3 ppm infantry that has a (short) ranged attack, can used to push out deep strikes, screen against assaults, and benefits from strong Ork morale negation and can benefits from big mek shield. Plus of course the insanely strong grot screen strat. I could see grots going up to 4 ppm. I agree that termagaunts or some other models may seem better pound for pound but orks overall are doing extremely well compared to some of those other factions.
Of course, guardsmen are also grossly undercosted at 4 ppm regardless what happens to grots.
What strong ork LD negation? They have bloody LD4. They don't have LD bonus of the ork boyz have. You have unit of 10 and kill 5 you are 50-50 your entire unit dies. You kill 6 and on 2+ unit is dead. If you take 30 and imagine the runtherd is good it's not that cost effective to begin with and...well you need like 6 unit of grots anyway so that's 180 grots. If they are 10 strong then it's actually gets fairly trivial to get to the lootas with any fast moving unit and any T1 chargers will simply be able to ignore the grot screen. Shoot at one unit and whoom you have clear path.
And insanely strong...Hahahaha. It could be good but T2 models die in droves. Killing 60 ain't no trouble. Seriously if you struggle to kill 60 T2 models then frankly your lists SUCK and there's no army you can even win to begin with. At that point grot screen is LEAST of your troubles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatMG wrote: Grots, Blame the peeps who where running 80 grots
Ah so people who dare to bring not even overpowered troops are to blame. Yea right.
Some of GW's adjustments seem to be based on 'this behavior is a deviation from what these armies are 'supposed' to look like.
We saw the same kind of adjustments when cultists got bumped, but I guess they figure with bonus attacks for marines and other adjustments, cultists won't be taken to excess anymore.
So, since there are stories about ork armies that are majority grots with specialty units, they have to be 'fixed.' At least that's where this line of thought seems to be going.
Tons of grots for cannon fodder is actually pretty darn fluffy thing...
Also if GW has issue with boyz not being used maybe it's because ork boyz aren't that good at 7 pts...It's as if the 7 pts nerf was bad to begin with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 09:33:17
ThatMG wrote: this is the same reason why thunder hammers went to 40 points. It wasn't because of the players who had one smash captain, it was the players who ran 3! etc. GW changes things not just because of power scale but usage.
That kind of game design is ass backwards though.
If the problem was the Smash Captain they should have fixed that. Instead they're just penalised the people who didn't take Smash Captains by increasing the price of a piece of wargear. They are constantly making decisions in a vacuum without any real thought given to the knock-on effects. They treat symptoms rather than root causes.
TedNugent wrote: So rather than changing the way CP, battalions or brigades work, or the insanely overpowered strategem stacking combos that have promulgated like weeds the last two years and continue to get worse let's nerf grots. Makes total sense and will clearly fix the balance.
Toughness 2. 6+ armor save. 12" range pistol 1.
That people are literally only getting them to fill mandatory battalion slots should tell you everything about the state of the game.
I think you are underestimating the value of 3 ppm infantry that has a (short) ranged attack, can used to push out deep strikes, screen against assaults, and benefits from strong Ork morale negation and can benefits from big mek shield. Plus of course the insanely strong grot screen strat. I could see grots going up to 4 ppm. I agree that termagaunts or some other models may seem better pound for pound but orks overall are doing extremely well compared to some of those other factions.
Of course, guardsmen are also grossly undercosted at 4 ppm regardless what happens to grots.
Those overpowered Grots.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If the problem was the Smash Captain they should have fixed that. Instead they're just penalised the people who didn't take Smash Captains by increasing the price of a piece of wargear. They are constantly making decisions in a vacuum without any real thought given to the knock-on effects. They treat symptoms rather than root causes.
Okay, and how you propose to do that? If they raised cost of captains instead, they would penalize everyone, even a guy with something fluffweak like generic chainsword/bolter captain. The only way they have with the dumb, backwards armory system is to hit the offending weapon, and it will stay that way until they go back to vastly superior 5th edition system of bespoke wargear costs.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If the problem was the Smash Captain they should have fixed that. Instead they're just penalised the people who didn't take Smash Captains by increasing the price of a piece of wargear. They are constantly making decisions in a vacuum without any real thought given to the knock-on effects. They treat symptoms rather than root causes.
Okay, and how you propose to do that? If they raised cost of captains instead, they would penalize everyone, even a guy with something fluffweak like generic chainsword/bolter captain. The only way they have with the dumb, backwards armory system is to hit the offending weapon, and it will stay that way until they go back to vastly superior 5th edition system of bespoke wargear costs.
Say, uh, how much does a Jump Pack/Bike cost on a character? you know that thing that makes smash captains work? I wouldn't know, other factions didn't get to keep mobility options for their HQs, but it seems like that's a thing you control that would be a good way to nerf smashcaptains without affecting literally any other unit or build of captain.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
H.B.M.C. wrote: If the problem was the Smash Captain they should have fixed that. Instead they're just penalised the people who didn't take Smash Captains by increasing the price of a piece of wargear. They are constantly making decisions in a vacuum without any real thought given to the knock-on effects. They treat symptoms rather than root causes.
Okay, and how you propose to do that? If they raised cost of captains instead, they would penalize everyone, even a guy with something fluffweak like generic chainsword/bolter captain. The only way they have with the dumb, backwards armory system is to hit the offending weapon, and it will stay that way until they go back to vastly superior 5th edition system of bespoke wargear costs.
It's as if giving extra rules for weapons and units without adjusting point costs for adding rules would be bad idea to begin with...Who would have thought of it!
It's the problem with GW giving free special rules not factored in point costs. Make those elements that make smash captain be more pricey. If you have weapon that costs X and then have weapon+1 then it should cost more than X.
Say, uh, how much does a Jump Pack/Bike cost on a character? you know that thing that makes smash captains work? I wouldn't know, other factions didn't get to keep mobility options for their HQs, but it seems like that's a thing you control that would be a good way to nerf smashcaptains without affecting literally any other unit or build of captain.
GW almost always underprices the mobility options for characters, jump packs, bikes, wings for Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants jetbikes for seers etc. It is weird. Then these options become pretty much mandatory even in a semi-competitive setting. Now, the thunder hammer was probably a tad too cheap compared to the fist previously, but some of the 'smash tax' should have gone to the jump pack instead. People have already switched to 'slash captains' with a jump pack and the Teeth of Terra.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or they can just remove CP farming altogether and make it a set amount.
There are too many stratagems, imo. The game could use a lot of trimming and moving strats back to being unit-abilities and datasheets.
CP generation, imo, should be rare and more conditional rather than something you build into. Like, one army could generate CP whenever they kill an enemy unit, another can get a point of CP whenever they successfully cast psychic powers. Hell, why not base command points on objectives, so for every turn you hold an objective, you generate CP?
The current system just doesn't work that well, as it affects army lists way too much and forces players to take a certain combination and quantity of units, and some armies at worse at farming CP than others. Its just a clunky, restrictive system that isn't really fun to deal with.
Currently I feel Kill Team and Age of Sigmar have better CP rules than 40k. I think it is only a question of time when 40k will see similar mechanics.
Yeah, I've said it for a long time that how the CP generation is handled is the biggest core flaw in the current edition. Many of the issues stem from it, and then we get awkward kludges to deal with the symptoms instead of the core cause.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 13:39:24
Some of GW's adjustments seem to be based on 'this behavior is a deviation from what these armies are 'supposed' to look like.
We saw the same kind of adjustments when cultists got bumped, but I guess they figure with bonus attacks for marines and other adjustments, cultists won't be taken to excess anymore.
So, since there are stories about ork armies that are majority grots with specialty units, they have to be 'fixed.' At least that's where this line of thought seems to be going.
Well that in combination with CP generation is a huge issue.
GW assumes a good CSM army is based on CSM and not cultists.
GW assumes a good Ork army is based on Boyz of any colour and not grotz.
*good beeing the terminus in a wierd absttract thought on how the basic army supposedly has to look here in the eyes of GW
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 14:48:10
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Well that in combination with CP generation is a huge issue.
GW assumes a good CSM army is based on CSM and not cultists.
GW assumes a good Ork army is based on Boyz of any colour and not grotz.
*good beeing the terminus in a wierd absttract thought on how the basic army supposedly has to look here in the eyes of GW
Then they probably shouldn't have written a system where being able to fill troop slots as cheaply as possible is a significant benefit. But as long as that idiotic system remains in place, the Troop and HQ units cannot be costed based on their stats alone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 14:59:15
Fully agree, but considering what traits are also doing for free aswell i seriously sometimes doubt gw 's ability or awareness.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
ThatMG wrote: this is the same reason why thunder hammers went to 40 points. It wasn't because of the players who had one smash captain, it was the players who ran 3! etc. GW changes things not just because of power scale but usage.
That kind of game design is ass backwards though.
If the problem was the Smash Captain they should have fixed that. Instead they're just penalised the people who didn't take Smash Captains by increasing the price of a piece of wargear. They are constantly making decisions in a vacuum without any real thought given to the knock-on effects. They treat symptoms rather than root causes.
There's nothing "wrong" with Smash Captains. They're just a little effective. Increasing TH costs makes it so other weapon options aren't oppressive and the model itself isn't screwed over. Now, that cost is probably representative of them taking a relic. Is that really an issue? I doubt it.
Say, uh, how much does a Jump Pack/Bike cost on a character? you know that thing that makes smash captains work? I wouldn't know, other factions didn't get to keep mobility options for their HQs, but it seems like that's a thing you control that would be a good way to nerf smashcaptains without affecting literally any other unit or build of captain.
What about a jump captain with a power sword? There are plenty of ways around needing jump. Jump is just the easiest to deploy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 15:08:38
Generally speaking, GW has a weird design gap, where there are models that really want to fill a battlefield role that is lesser than Troop, but that's as low as their scale goes. Several things like Grots make more sense in something more along the Elite/Fast Attack slots, but don't fit those descriptions. In a lot of ways, Grots should probably be declared Dedicated Transports.
LunarSol wrote: Generally speaking, GW has a weird design gap, where there are models that really want to fill a battlefield role that is lesser than Troop, but that's as low as their scale goes. Several things like Grots make more sense in something more along the Elite/Fast Attack slots, but don't fit those descriptions. In a lot of ways, Grots should probably be declared Dedicated Transports.
Maybe units like grots or conscripts shouldn't take up slots at all? Like, there's no limit as to how many of them you can field, they just cost points? It would certainly kill CP farms.
Infantry Squads need platoons again. That would help kill CP farms as well, as it would be more expensive to fill out slots with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 16:24:27
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
TedNugent wrote: So rather than changing the way CP, battalions or brigades work, or the insanely overpowered strategem stacking combos that have promulgated like weeds the last two years and continue to get worse let's nerf grots. Makes total sense and will clearly fix the balance.
Toughness 2. 6+ armor save. 12" range pistol 1.
That people are literally only getting them to fill mandatory battalion slots should tell you everything about the state of the game.
I think you are underestimating the value of 3 ppm infantry that has a (short) ranged attack, can used to push out deep strikes, screen against assaults, and benefits from strong Ork morale negation and can benefits from big mek shield. Plus of course the insanely strong grot screen strat. I could see grots going up to 4 ppm. I agree that termagaunts or some other models may seem better pound for pound but orks overall are doing extremely well compared to some of those other factions.
Of course, guardsmen are also grossly undercosted at 4 ppm regardless what happens to grots.
Those overpowered Grots.
Yes, they are. It isn't a matter of their gun or their stats, but their strategic and mechanical uses in the game system.
They're 'game the game' units, and the closest thing GW has to a policy on that is 'people shouldn't do it' and a shrug.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 16:29:36
LunarSol wrote: Generally speaking, GW has a weird design gap, where there are models that really want to fill a battlefield role that is lesser than Troop, but that's as low as their scale goes. Several things like Grots make more sense in something more along the Elite/Fast Attack slots, but don't fit those descriptions. In a lot of ways, Grots should probably be declared Dedicated Transports.
Maybe units like grots or conscripts shouldn't take up slots at all? Like, there's no limit as to how many of them you can field, they just cost points?
It would certainly kill CP farms.
Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
Infantry Squads need platoons again. That would help kill CP farms as well, as it would be more expensive to fill out slots with them.
Kanluwen wrote: Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
This. Grotz, Conscipts, even Nurglings and Rippers should just not count for filling mandatory slots. Still require them to use said Troop slots, but you need to fill your mandatory slots first (so 3 OTHER Troops in a Battalion for example).
Do that, and those units can be as cheap as they need to be and not affect CP generation.
Kanluwen wrote: Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
This. Grotz, Conscipts, even Nurglings and Rippers should just not count for filling mandatory slots. Still require them to use said Troop slots, but you need to fill your mandatory slots first (so 3 OTHER Troops in a Battalion for example).
Do that, and those units can be as cheap as they need to be and not affect CP generation.
-
and basically never taken (apart from nurglings)...
LunarSol wrote: Generally speaking, GW has a weird design gap, where there are models that really want to fill a battlefield role that is lesser than Troop, but that's as low as their scale goes. Several things like Grots make more sense in something more along the Elite/Fast Attack slots, but don't fit those descriptions. In a lot of ways, Grots should probably be declared Dedicated Transports.
Maybe units like grots or conscripts shouldn't take up slots at all? Like, there's no limit as to how many of them you can field, they just cost points? It would certainly kill CP farms.
Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
Infantry Squads need platoons again. That would help kill CP farms as well, as it would be more expensive to fill out slots with them.
No, they really don't and no, it really wouldn't.
What's wrong with platoons? They were a unique, IG specific rule that made them distinct from any other army. How would platoons not stop CP farming? Instead of paying, what, 120 points for filling out the minimal troops requirement, you now have to pay about 300 points. If you make it so that conscripts don't fill up slots or count towards minimal requirements, then CP farming wouldn't be so easy to do.
Kanluwen wrote: Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
This. Grotz, Conscipts, even Nurglings and Rippers should just not count for filling mandatory slots. Still require them to use said Troop slots, but you need to fill your mandatory slots first (so 3 OTHER Troops in a Battalion for example). Do that, and those units can be as cheap as they need to be and not affect CP generation.
-
and basically never taken (apart from nurglings)...
Grots would still be useful for shields and screening. CP batteries isn't their only use. This is why I hate the current system - it degrades every unit to "can I use this to make CP", which is a terrible mindset to encourage, as it devolves list building and strategy into a numbers game of who can spam the most stratagems.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 16:55:35
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Kanluwen wrote: Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
This. Grotz, Conscipts, even Nurglings and Rippers should just not count for filling mandatory slots. Still require them to use said Troop slots, but you need to fill your mandatory slots first (so 3 OTHER Troops in a Battalion for example).
Do that, and those units can be as cheap as they need to be and not affect CP generation.
-
Seems like a potentially good idea, but it could hurt Orks at the same time getting forced into 3x10 or 6x10 boyz.
Yes, they are. It isn't a matter of their gun or their stats, but their strategic and mechanical uses in the game system.
They're 'game the game' units, and the closest thing GW has to a policy on that is 'people shouldn't do it' and a shrug.
This is a good point. Grots can cost the same thing as something else while having a drastically weaker statline if another rule gives them a significant purpose those other units cannot use. I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way on this one, but its worth remembering that there's more to balance than making units "cost right" in a vacuum.
LunarSol wrote: Generally speaking, GW has a weird design gap, where there are models that really want to fill a battlefield role that is lesser than Troop, but that's as low as their scale goes. Several things like Grots make more sense in something more along the Elite/Fast Attack slots, but don't fit those descriptions. In a lot of ways, Grots should probably be declared Dedicated Transports.
Uuuh seeing orks need minimum 2 bat's to work requiring about 1200 pts for troops then is...harsh.
Kanluwen wrote: Or they should be given a rule that they don't count for the mandatory slot filling.
This. Grotz, Conscipts, even Nurglings and Rippers should just not count for filling mandatory slots. Still require them to use said Troop slots, but you need to fill your mandatory slots first (so 3 OTHER Troops in a Battalion for example).
Do that, and those units can be as cheap as they need to be and not affect CP generation.
-
Sure. Just give those then other troop options. Or change cp system from more dets is more cp
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 17:19:24
What's wrong with platoons? They were a unique, IG specific rule that made them distinct from any other army.
Not really. It was a mechanism that was added to allow for you to circumvent the troop choices and to allow for your Heavy and Elite slots to be untouched with 'organic' items such as Heavy Weapon Squads.
Which are a thing that get complained about now, and you want to allow for them to get taken as part of a mandatory Troops choice?
How would platoons not stop CP farming? Instead of paying, what, 120 points for filling out the minimal troops requirement, you now have to pay about 300 points. If you make it so that conscripts don't fill up slots or count towards minimal requirements, then CP farming wouldn't be so easy to do.
Anytime I've made a suggestion that would stop CP farming cold(things like Guard Detachments can't provide CPs for non-Guard Detachments, requiring Auxiliary Detachments instead of allowing for these big Detachments to be taken as Allies, etc)--the immediate and visceral reaction is "THAT DOESN'T MATTER! IT'S NOT THE CP ONLY, IT'S THE CHEAP BODIES!".
And if you swap it to that, guess what the next attempt will be for CP farming? 5 man Scion Suicide Squads!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 17:36:38
Well, IG do seem pretty cost effective for 4 ppm. They may be T3, but they do have a 33% chance of negating damage from small arms fire, and can have a high RoF with orders. They should probably be 5ppm, or have worse armor.
Then again, with GW upping the RoF on weapons, to the point that there's now a heavy weapon on an infantry platform that has 8 shots and can be taken multiple times, they probably need to be that cheap right now.
Yeah, that's true, they'll just find another option to farm CP. The CP system needs to be rebuilt completely, really. Linking it to detachments was a mistake.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 17:41:16
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
~4100
