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 streetsamurai wrote:
Id be surprised if cathay is one of the faction released at day 1. Hopefully we get at least 4. Kislev and empire seems like a given, and if guess we get at least one flavor of elves, plus an evil faction (probably chaos)

I'd expect empire and orcs as a given, as they are classic warhammer fantasy. Chaos is also probably likely. Then I'd expect dwarfs or an elf, possibly high flavoured.

Rumors say Empire, Dwarfs, Orkc & Goblins and Chaos.

 streetsamurai wrote:

I think the roundtree era shows how incredibly incompetent kirby was. He's.not doing an incredible job imo, yet, he seems like god gift to gamers (and investors) compared to the totally inept kirby

Kirby was chairman of GW from late 90s till what, 2014? He literally made GW into a massive business. Seems like he was pretty competent until only recently (well.6 years ago)

A lot of it was because of the lotr boom. I guess he deserves some credit for it, but it came at the expense.of gutting all of gw original ip, bar 40k, and alienating a.big segment of his customers.i think gw thrived in spite of him, not because of him

The LOTR boom finally ending after the movies and the price of Pewter skyrocketing around 2007 are both contributing factors.

Then they had to get off pewter, which lead to Finecast. Which in and of itself isn't bad. The problem came because resin is toxic. Its one thing to sell it to experienced hobbyists buying from Forge World, but the target demo for WHFB and WH40K starts younger. So they used a resin that was non-toxic, which was of significantly poorer quality and lead to bubbles and details being damaged.

Added to that were the price hikes. GW started finecast to save money on metal, and metal was already more expensive than the plastic equivalent. But then the jacked the price on Resin WAAAAAY higher than metal. That turned a bunch of people off GW as well, including myself who really started to pull back from the hobby around that time.

Also the whole attitude of "We are a premium model company, not a game company." Mentality really hurt the games as well, and the rules really showed it.

I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

RazorEdge wrote:
Rumors say Empire, Dwarfs, Orkc & Goblins and Chaos.

That’s interesting! Where are you hearing those rumours?

I think Bretonnians will for sure be part of the first release, they are the most in need of new models and they were the second? faction map to be released. Everyone who is a fan of fantasy wants to see new Brets so I figure that is pretty much a given.

I don't see elves being right at the start, as much as I'd love some new High Elves for my army, I just don't quite see it right at the start. Much like the Tomb Kings banner in the border princes map, I think that's just a "hey you can use your armies straight away" thing.

Cronch wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

I think the roundtree era shows how incredibly incompetent kirby was. He's.not doing an incredible job imo, yet, he seems like god gift to gamers (and investors) compared to the totally inept kirby

Kirby was chairman of GW from late 90s till what, 2014? He literally made GW into a massive business. Seems like he was pretty competent until only recently (well.6 years ago)

He was decent in the 90s - the idea of starter box sets with two armies, the rulebook and everything needed to play was something that he pushed. Then around the middle of the 00s once the LOTR boom was over, he turned into an absolutely idiot, so many shortsighted idiotic things were done by GW from that period up until Rountree took over. Look at how the share price has skyrocketed since 2016.

I guees some people overrate the Bretonnians.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

Agreed you want to sell us stuff we don't have not stuff we already have

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

Agreed you want to sell us stuff we don't have not stuff we already have

Yeah, a 2 army starter set with Kislev vs Norsca/ChaosUndecided or Cathay vs Daemons/Vampiretes/Ogres would be an easy route to go.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

Kislev was described to us as "one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World" and that the concept art is for models, so I think the rumour of them and Cathay being done as TW:W3 "advice" doesn't hold up too well.

The rumor never said that Kislev and Cathay are "advice-only" factions.

RazorEdge wrote:
The rumor never said that Kislev and Cathay are "advice-only" factions.

It claims we're only really being shown previews for them because of TW:W3, rather than them being something with direct relevance to TOW TT/miniature side at this time. It says fans are misinterpreting what they're for with them not being intended as miniatures for quite a while and that Kislev and Cathay previews are more "advice for Total War" that "show how both Games are "interlocked""

There's a big difference between Kislev and Cathay. Not only in lore proximity to the conventional factions but in terms of historical production; Kislev never had a book but did get a full army list and several miniature kits for WHFB. They were an entirely playable faction at one point.

All the more reason to release Cathay miniatures sooner rather than later.

The longer we are in this holding pattern for any sort of formal press release of the game with shots of the models and clarity of the exact nature of the rules, the more ridiculous naysay garbage gets spouted in here by people who I'm starting to think just want this to flop.

*GW sends out the "... even squares" post followed by the logo

THIS THREAD: "It won't be squares, don't get your hopes up." "This will be an AOS port, not a return to WFB." "This will be Warmaster for AOS." "This will be Warmaster relaunched."

*GW releases press release stating that NONE of those things are true

THIS THREAD: "It'll still be AOS rules." "I'm still thinking it's Warmaster." "They won't bring back old factions."

*GW states old factions ARE coming back as well as Kislev and Cathay designed explicitly for W:TOW and TW:W3

THIS THREAD: "There's no way they release those two armies for this edition." "They will just port over AOS models." "I can't see them releasing Cathay and Kislev for this edition." "The old armies aren't coming back, the map is nothing but a picture."


GODS this is so annoying. WFB is coming back, it'll be in the normal scale, it'll be on squares, there will be rules for ALL the older factions as well as the new ones, and you won't lose your AOS in order W:TOW to come out.

Those aren’t the GODS you intend, they’re the ones ported over from AoS.

Joyboozer wrote:
Those aren’t the GODS you intend, they’re the ones ported over from AoS.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread.

RazorEdge wrote:
I guees some people overrate the Bretonnians.

And I guess some people underrate them?

Apparently, is what I'm getting from this anyway?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

I haven't often met wargamers who considered their collection for any army truly "finished". Do I need a second Forest Dragon? Definitely not. Would I buy a nice looking new plastic one? Certainly. Would a Chaos player gladly shelf the ugly old Marauders in favour of a few new units? Probably. Would Dwarf, Empire, or Greenskin players enjoy getting some additional sets of the boxes that have been out of production for ages now? Presumably, yes. Heck, I'd be as excited to buy a set of currently OOP models as I'd be for a set of new sculpts in some cases.

That said, I'd certainly expect Kislev to appear fairly early on, quite possibly in a launch box (having a new faction in there could be a big draw... though it's no guarantee for success). While Cathay may be fancy and new, I couldn't care less about them. I'm more excited about redone High Elf core troops or even just bringing Glade Riders or Empire Archers back into production than anything in that line. Over time, I might grow to like Cathay just like I basically like any other WHFB faction in some way or another, but currently they're just... a thing. And not (yet) a Warhammer thing. Relaunching an old game and universe by focussing on things that were not a part of the old game and barely of the universe would be an interesting strategy, but not one that'll draw me in.

Yeah I was going to say new models for the older armies in plastic with the new sculpting tech would offer a lot. My old dwarf army started in 3rd ed and I added to to it continually whenever better sculpts came out. Bar the Ironbreakers and Hammerers the older dwarf plastics aren't great. You put up new dwarf sculpts the quality of the Kharadron range and Gotrek I'd be all over them!
I definitely think they'll use the opportunity to bring new models out - Norse Dwarfs for example as well as Cathay and Kislev but they can bring back a lot of old players by bringing updated fish kits for their old collections.
Not sure if Kislev or Cathay would feature in a starter set as they are unproven as collected factions. That said the concepts for Total War looks amazing and they can tease them to gauge the appeal.
They could also bring back Regiments of Renown as ways of adding old armies, plus the older timeline of the setting helps too.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think it would be a huge mistake for them to wait on Cathay and Kislev. Not only are those the most exciting things to happen to Warhammer Fantasy since the addition of Tomb Kings, but leading with armies for the Grognards—who already own all the Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs, Chaos and Elves they could use—is a sure way to sabotage early sales and mask the true potential of the setting.

I never understand the "Fantasy died because grogs don't buy new models!" thing. If that were true then no model company would ever release new, updated sculpts. GW would never have released Primaris because surely all those Marine players would never rebuy a whole army, right? Or another example, surely all of those CSM players will never use the new, updated models and stick to the 2001 plastics? But every army I see now is 90% Primaris, or Chaos armies are 100% using the new plastics.

I'm sure a lot of people will say "I'm just going to use my old Fantasy models and not buy the updated ones" but like with all things when it comes to GW and their products, the fanbase has shown it has the impulse control of a meth addict left alone in a cook lab.

 Just Tony wrote:

GODS this is so annoying. WFB is coming back, it'll be in the normal scale, it'll be on squares, there will be rules for ALL the older factions as well as the new ones, and you won't lose your AOS in order W:TOW to come out.

I've even seen a guy who insists that TOW is only a publicity stunt to boost Total War. His reasoning:
- WHFB is dead and GW would obviously never bring it back as it "hurts" aos and 40k.
- It has been a while since the first announcement and for now there are only a few maps and concept art for the video game.
- No minis after 2 years = not going to happen.
- WH community is just poking the old grognards for fun.

Absolutely mindblown by the logic.


Anyway, I can see them launching the game without Kislev or Cathay for starters. Those need to be done from zero, so lots of time and work. If they focus on the rules and a few kits to repackage the whole thing, it could be out way sooner.

I wonder how time-consuming it really is sculpt-wise seeing as most of the models can be ripped from TW:WH and adjusted in whatever program they use probably? They're not painstakingly hand-sculpting each one after all.

VBS wrote:
I've even seen a guy who insists that TOW is only a publicity stunt to boost Total War.

It is unheard of for GW to announce a game so far ahead of time, so I don't doubt that choice was a publicity stunt. It's a bit of a stretch to say the whole thing was a publicity stunt and they're not actually working on a game, but I don't blame someone for thinking that way. Vapourware is a thing and it could happen here, as unlikely as that may be at this point.

Cronch wrote:
I wonder how time-consuming it really is sculpt-wise seeing as most of the models can be ripped from TW:WH and adjusted in whatever program they use probably? They're not painstakingly hand-sculpting each one after all.

They can make most infantry units just by taking a single model and copying it a few times and adjusting it slightly each time.

Kind of like the entire Space Marine line, but on a smaller scale.

 Just Tony wrote:
GODS this is so annoying. WFB is coming back, it'll be in the normal scale, it'll be on squares, there will be rules for ALL the older factions as well as the new ones, and you won't lose your AOS in order W:TOW to come out.

I agree with all of that, even if the last one is disappointing...

 Dysartes wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
GODS this is so annoying. WFB is coming back, it'll be in the normal scale, it'll be on squares, there will be rules for ALL the older factions as well as the new ones, and you won't lose your AOS in order W:TOW to come out.

I agree with all of that, even if the last one is disappointing...

No need to be an ass just because people like something you don't. But it is concerning they seem to leaning so human-centric at the off. If it does turn out to be Empire, Cathay, Kislev and Brettonia at launch, it will make it very dull.